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So the EPA Contacted me today....

  • Thread starter Eureka Springs Organics
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xmobotx

ecks moe baw teeks
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clearly, there is a great divergence of opinion regarding the rebel vs comply aspect of this story ~let's discuss it in a civil manner though
 
B

BrnCow

Put a note that although not proven, it has been rumored to help rid the country of lying, cheating, and stealing politicians and EPA agents trying to hassle the smaller companies with organic products...
 

h.h.

Active member
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Calcined DE is a product that is used in many different applications to absorb moisture, most often. Oil spill clean up, cat liter, pool and commercial filtering, etc.

It is a hard, granule - small pieces. It works some what more like perlite or an aeration amendment because of it's particle size - but I stopped using the stuff because of it's weight. It is makes the medium heavy. It also retains water in a very odd sort of way that leaves the center of a container wet while the side and top have dried out.

I also experienced an odd spotting on my leaves when using it as a full replacement for perlite, that appeared similar to a calcium def. but was not. It was more so a burn / toxicity of some sort...even when heavily screened and rinsed before usage...

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Now, food grade DE is fully powdered - pulverized....dust. It actually contributes more readily usable amounts of silica to the plant, increases CEC, and also acts as an aid to water retention in the soil, but it is much better at all these functions as it is more equally dispersed and in smaller particle sizes that are more readily broken down. It is absolutely ineffective as a pesticide once it becomes moistened or when it is wet. For it to be optimally utilized it needs to stay dry. It works rather well when lightly dusting the leaves with it to kill bugs - but it easily rinses with a good rain. I don't know that it has any true impact on bugs when it is added to the soil as an amendment...

How effective calcined DE is at pest control, after being heated to 1000 degrees, I'm not certain of either. Part of what makes DE works is the physical structure of a it, acting as a razor blade to put cuts into pests and the powder to aid in drying them out. When it is processed into a larger particle size, I have to wonder if it still effective in the same manner, as the physical shape is no longer the same...

Anther aspect to consider is the pH of a food grade product being around 7.5 where once it is it rises to around 8.75...

I stopped recommending that people utilize calcined DE at all - but I still love food grade, as a soil amendment, if for no other reason than it's high CEC of around 32cmol+/kg. When paired with a high calcium soil, you have a massive amount of exchange sites which aids and benefits nutrient retention...



dank.Frank


I have not experienced the same results plant wise.
There was a discussion here on whether to sift the oil absorbent(OA) product or not. I don't. I leave all the fines. That may account for some difference.
The majority of it is also ran through the worm bin, that probably does make a difference.
Bugs don't like it. It's rough, it's dusty, they leave. On the surface, even when wet, it is still rough. In the soil, it doesn't disturb the worms. Leaves can be washed with foliar containing some sort of saponin. On a small scale, if you wanted to dust, you could sift enough out of the OA. On a large scale, it wouldn't be too practical. I guess that depends somewhat on your individual situation and what the pest is. I'd rather have a clean leaf.
Powered will no doubt break down faster and contribute silica faster, I can offer only anecdotal evidence that OA is adequate in that regard. I think it helps.
It does aid in drainage. Powders hinder drainage. In keeping a ratio of fine to coarse material, I prefer using rock dust, silt, and ewc.
I don't use DE exclusively for drainage. It's a combination of char, lave rock, recycled rice hulls, you name it.
IMO.I can't really recommend it enough. Well, it is a mined product. That does tug at me.
Due to your experience, it seems that I need to provide a bit of a disclaimer though. I'm just not sure what it should be.

DE used for filtration is flux-calcined. Slightly different from simply being baked.. Salt is used as flux.


Calcined diatomaceous earth has been treated at a temperature above 1000 ºC. The purpose of this is to further harden the exoskeletons of the diatoms in order to create a better filtering agent. This process causes the amorphous silica that makes up the exoskeleton of the diatom to turn in to crystalline silica. This is a benefit if the diatomaceous earth is to be used as a filtering aid (for example, in a pool filter), however crystalline silica can be toxic to humans and animals when inhaled. Calcined diatomaceous earth is not used for animal feed and is not food grade.
http://www.dicalite.com/diatomaceous-earth/flux-calcined-de/

Crystalline Silica (Quartz)
<1%

Crystalline Silica (Cristobalite)
<1%
Moltan OA MSDS


Freshwater-derived food grade diatomaceous earth is the type used in United States agriculture for grain storage, as feed supplement, and as an insecticide. It is produced uncalcinated, has a very fine particle size, and is very low in crystal silica (<2%).

Salt-water-derived pool/ beer/ wine filter grade is not suitable for human consumption or effective as an insecticide. Usually calcinated before being sold to remove impurities and undesirable volatile contents, it is composed of larger particles than the freshwater version and has a high silica content (>60%).
wiki

So though the absorbent is calcinated, the crystalline silica is well within food grade standards. No where near the 60% of filter grade.
 
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h.h.

Active member
Veteran
clearly, there is a great divergence of opinion regarding the rebel vs comply aspect of this story ~let's discuss it in a civil manner though

You don't have to cut off your nose to be a rebel. Why do you think we have an EPA from the get go? Do you think petrochemical companies willingly accepted regulations? It took non compliance.
The EPA has it's problems. The government is just made up of people, like us, trying to protect their jobs until retirement. The EPA's main goal is to appease the environmentalists. Well without it, we have nothing. We should rebel. What we shouldn't do is retreat.
This is just another business claiming victimization. I chose not to comply. I've seen what that does.
 

EclipseFour20

aka "Doc"
Veteran
My understanding is...Fossil Shell Flour (food grade DE) is "PH neutral", meaning it does not increase/decrease the soil's PH and it can absorb/hold liquid many times its own weight (diatoms have "air cavities"). When used with other aggregates, one can fine tune the soil's porosity and liquid retention capabilities by adjusting the amount of DE. Depending on which soil mix I am making, I add FSF at the rate of 3-6%. Most "calcined DE" is sourced from the ocean whereas food grade DE is sourced from fresh water sources...and is mercury free.
 

h.h.

Active member
Veteran
My understanding is...Fossil Shell Flour (food grade DE) is "PH neutral", meaning it does not increase/decrease the soil's PH and it can absorb/hold liquid many times its own weight (diatoms have "air cavities"). When used with other aggregates, one can fine tune the soil's porosity and liquid retention capabilities by adjusting the amount of DE. Depending on which soil mix I am making, I add FSF at the rate of 3-6%. Most "calcined DE" is sourced from the ocean whereas food grade DE is sourced from fresh water sources...and is mercury free.

Moltan's is sourced in Nevada.

"Mercury free". Now we're starting to worry about standards. that does cost money. I didn't see it on the OA MSDS though.
Boil 10 g of sample with 100 ml of water for 1 h and filter through a fine-
porosity sintered-glass filter or a suitable filter paper. Dilute filtrate to 100
ml. Natural and calcined powders, pH range: 5 to 10. Flux-calcined
powders, pH range: 8 to 11.
http://www.fao.org/ag/agn/jecfa-additives/specs/Monograph1/Additive-151.pdf
 

harry74

Active member
Veteran
Keep the fight man!!!!

¿ What about fumigating the congress with that product?

At the end of the day, politicians are a pest....like spidermites.

May be it Works with politicians too.!!!!

You can make more money, I would buy some to fumigate around

:pirate:
 

h.h.

Active member
Veteran
Well I stand corrected, PermaGuard FSF has 2 ppm of Mercury. Trace Metal Analysis: http://www.highfiber.com/~galenvtp/deanlsbw.htm
The attached pdf is a technical analysis of FSF.

Cheers!

Everything seems to have something in it. It was all safe until we learned how to test it.
I don't want to downplay the flour. It is nice that it isn't calcined and it would be better to dust with.

I was looking at my strawberries yesterday. They're an acid loving plant. They love this stuff. I spread it on them a couple times a year now and they've never done better.
Right now they're covered with DE dust and tons of berries. Damn this 80* weather. A lot of folks getting in second crops. Smiling.
 
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dank.frank

ef.yu.se.ka.e.em
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Keep the fight man!!!!

¿ What about fumigating the congress with that product?

At the end of the day, politicians are a pest....like spidermites.

May be it Works with politicians too.!!!!

You can make more money, I would buy some to fumigate around

:pirate:




aaaaaaaaannnnddddd.....now you're on a list for issuing threats. derp derp...



dank.Frank
 

itisme

Active member
Veteran
Learn these.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/241
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/242


18 U.S. Code § 241 - Conspiracy against rights

Current through Pub. L. 113-75. (See Public Laws for the current Congress.)

US Code
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If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same; or
If two or more persons go in disguise on the highway, or on the premises of another, with intent to prevent or hinder his free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege so secured—
They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.



18 U.S. Code § 242 - Deprivation of rights under color of law

Current through Pub. L. 113-75. (See Public Laws for the current Congress.)

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Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or to different punishments, pains, or penalties, on account of such person being an alien, or by reason of his color, or race, than are prescribed for the punishment of citizens, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if bodily injury results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.
 

Bongstar420

Member
I do not believe that list is accurate for the ingredients. I just looked at an actual pack in here in Oregon and the microbes are quite different. I didn't see anything that was actually indicated as a pesticide.

The "ingredients" below looks more like a list of actually effective microbes, not OG Biowar Foliar pak.

I don't know about Eureka tho.


Avannish; Thank you for posting the list of ingredients;
Bacillus thurengiensis kurstaki
Bacillus thuringiensis israelienses
Beavaria bassiane
Bavaria brongniartii
Saccharopolyspora Espinosa
Metarhizium anisopliae
Verticillium lecanii
Ampelomyces quisqalis
Rhodospirrulum rubrum
Rhodopseudomonas palustris
70% inert ingredients pharmaceutical grade talc

And Eureka thank you for the secondary list;

Bacillus subtilis
Azobacter chroococcum
Pseudomonas fluorescens
Pseudomonas chlororaphis
Rhodopseudomonas palustris
Rhodospirillum rubrum
Beijerinckia indica
99% talcum

Then we have Granger's input that the first list is the foliar and the second the root pack. This does make sense as the microbes in the second list are known 'nutrient stimulators'

If we go to the first list, there are several pesticidal type ingredients;

1/ Metarhizium anisopliae; a fungi attacking/killing mostly arthropods
http://www.biocontrol.entomology.cornell.edu/pathogens/Metarhizium.html
Seems relatevely safe;
http://www.mgshort.com/images/met52_granular_bioinsecticide_expires03-01-2013.pdf

2/ Bacillus thurengiensis kurstaki & Bacillus thuringiensis israelienses
Two types of commonly referred to as Bt. They are relatively safe pesticidal bacteria effecting a fairly narrow scope of insects, which (AFAIK) ingest the spore and die.

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/24d-captan/bt-ext.html
http://www.certisusa.com/pdf-msds/deliver-wg-msds.pdf

3/ Saccharopolyspora Espinosa; otherwise known as Spinosad is a highly effective broad spectrum insecticide (AFAIK). It is recommended for severe infestation but not recommended for ongoing use (IMO). It is harmful to bees, used outdoors. Orally it works great for fleas in dogs (IME) [Comfortis]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3133185/pdf/zjb3150.pdf

http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_014a/0901b8038014a09b.pdf?file

I do not have any idea of the safety nor efficacy of mixing these active ingredients.

Perhaps someone can locate research on this.
 

blotter

New member
I do not believe that list is accurate for the ingredients. I just looked at an actual pack in here in Oregon and the microbes are quite different. I didn't see anything that was actually indicated as a pesticide.

The "ingredients" below looks more like a list of actually effective microbes, not OG Biowar Foliar pak.

I don't know about Eureka tho.


im somewhat confident the formula has changed since the post you're quoting

I felt like the old stuff worked a little better on aphids, but I've never been able to completely eliminate them with the stuff. User error?
 

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