Smart Meters

[Verger OG]

In the chat channel I was abused because I brought up this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_meter

In the Netherlands all Dutch households will get a smart meter, that will monitor our power consumption per 15 minutes. It will send this data wireless. There are many security issues involved here.

First of all, it will send data that can be picked up by anyone. That means that anyone with a laptop can park outside and start logging your power consumption. From that power use they can extrapolate what you are doing and when you are home. This can be used to plan burglary or ripping off your plants, searching your house for money that you might have from being a grower.

They can target likely houses or use tips or someone mouthing off and then analyze the data to plan an attack. If you realize how many people use wireless equipment and are not using any safety...it has been in the news how people pick up these transmissions and abuse them, whole businesses are unprotected. IT security isn't a big thing here for many people who are naive.

The power company receives this data and the argument was made they don't have time or money to datamine it, to find unusual power users.

But THAT is the point of the new meters. They are intended to analyze data:

"Smart meters provide an economical way of measuring this information, allowing price setting agencies to introduce different prices for consumption based on the time of day and the season."

It is not labor intensive to do so as was implied. But I said that computers using special software do this, as most of us know. They will run statistical analyses on it and the computer will spit out if required by law enforcement agancies, any strange patterns of power use.

A strange pattern would include switching on your grow lights for 24 hours a day. They can see your average power use is this and that from that day on it is on average 400W higher, or 600W or whatever your power use is. Then theyc an detect that you go back to a 12/12 cycle.

And even if you gradually go from 24/7 to 18, to 16 etc, they can detect this systematic decline in power use. Remember, they can detect it per 15 minutes. Somoen said to switch light son 5 minutes earlier and play around with that. But that would fall within one period of 15 minutes. And it would not make a difference.

First the computer can calculate within certain margins, to incorporate these sorts of small irregularities and no man needs to work an hour to see the pattern. If irregularity is detected, it will flag that household and only then will someone take the read out and see what this is about.

This readout will be asked for by LEA. I was called naive and paranoid.

They say that would never happen. But I reminded them of their social security number. At first ours was only to be used for tax purposes, so by the IRS. Now it is proudly displayed in my passport, my health insurance card, I need to fill it in on any subsidy application for municipal purposes or above that level of government. Now insurance companies need it, the number is locked onto all kinds of government files on me. Also, databases of organizations are more and more linked. And IT security isn't always good.

We talk about identity theft here these days a lot...

So if power companies start datamining to 'help' you reduce your power consumption...in the future it will be possible to get instant over the internet advice by logging in on their website most likely and then get instant power use advice... which will be another thread to grower security, so, the analyzing will certainly be done.

Now, you might think that LEA won't just single you out. But think of this. We live in a world that gets scarier day by day by installing and implementing new security measures. Right from 11-9-01 on, we have changed laws to make it easier for LEA to datamine, to get into computers, to review databases. These laws go far in the EU and in The Netherlands.

I am interested in this topic and I know quite a bit about it. I am not naieve.

If a judge gives a court order to lift my power use data from a database, the power company will be forced to provide the details. Our national secret service, the AIVD, already has the authority to go in b and find anything. They can easily do what is being done a lot today: if they say one grows weed to obtain money for terrorism, they will give this info to the police and they will find a judge to get the warrant. In England, an 11 year old was arrested on terrorism charges for walking on the grass.

We see people post here who are harassed by police on bogus charges and their rights are stepped upon.

Someone aid that the 400W HPS isn't gonna trigger a red light. No, but the patter of usage will. I don't feel safe in the 7 billion households database spread out over different power companies, would you?

Besides, it is easy to target. There are areas where the police knows a lot of grow houses exist. If theys ee a house and different people go in there according to the neighbors, if there are always curtains closed or whatever, the cops can ask for a permit of a judge to find out if there really is a grow operation by diving into the power use.

They would not even have to go in, they can picl up the transmissions.

Also, the power company can turn of power delivery to your house remotely. I take that this is send by a command, there are chips in that meter.

So this is a risk, if someone wants to harass you, they might ne able to hack your meter and switch your grow operation off.

I also worry about an electrical storm. Once my modem broke when a thunderstorm passed nearby and lightning struck someplace bear. It may yet fry the chips, making you vulnerable because chips will need to be replaced and someone needs to enter your house.

In the usa they find an excuse to break into your house searching for a bloody shirt or when they see 'paraphernelia' or just a mess because you are not a tidy person as an excuse to kick down the door. If LEA get another indictaor, they will be more withing their rights to do something.

And the more data the government and :LEA have, the less we are secure.

Someone questioned that this was real. See the link I gave. He wanted a news article or something... right.

Someone talked about porch lights and how they were already 400W. But that is mssing the point. The point is statistical analysis and pattern recognition, not the flip on of the porch light. It is all about averages and who know what mathematical formulae they let go on it.

Another asked how they would tell what you sue that eats power. But that is also not the point. It is about patterns. Yes you can use an electrical heater in winter. But the point is THAT they do not know and that might be a cause for an investigation.

After all, even as I type some are now wanting to rewrite law to switch the burden of proof around. That is, if someone accused of criminal activities cannot prove he bought his villa or car with legal money, he will lose it. In america I think this is already the case.

My point here is that laws begin as obviously morally acceptable means of kicking the criminal but slowly, like my social security number, will be used beyond the scope of its original intended purpose.

So that means that LEA will get broad privileges to secure data to prove their point that someone is a grower.

Someone said it would cost much to find out all these things. But I already explained that. A computer doesn't cost much. For a power company, not even power

Of course someone mentions 'aliens' at that point. And watching sci-fi.

These meters are very real, in the link you see how many millions of these things have already been installed.

I am not so naive to think that there will not come a day when this data is being auto-scanned by secret survive or even just plain old coppers. Changed laws giving them the rights are never dismantled. Laws rarely get abolished or revoked.

Someone asked WHY they would do 'it', meaning datamining. Well, because THEY CAN. Look at the current state of the world pertaining to security. Where dow e see mass demonstrations to protect a human right like privacy?

Where do we see those who love freedom demonstrate against laws that take away our freedom, civil rights and liberties. Privacy is a right. Not a gift by the government.

It seems that in their naivety they will allow the net (or grid itself) to close in around them and then they hope they will find an easy way to avoid power use detection.

They forget that LEA doesn't wait until they detect a possible crime. In that regard I mentioned the new Dutch sniffer RC helo. They said that over The Netherlands would be a cloud of smoke. Laughable. And still that helo can detect the particles associated with growing. And find hostspots of these particles. They would know if it is a coffeeshop because they can link the sniffer data to GPS.

They didn't seem to understand basic modern technology. They questioned if such a helo existed:
http://www.verhagenx2.com/verhagex2heliko.html

In Dutch, but it shows the helo.

It uses infrared and sniffers to make sure someone is not growing tomatoes.

A moderator said that I must really feel like something to be worried about me being picked out.

Well, that is not the point is it.

One of this mob asked if they small his grow from space now. Smell? No, but they are planning to sue satellite imagery to detect plants in crops of farmers.
Will that be sufficient?

Is this a 'ridiculous' topic'?

I think not.

How can you be a self respecting grower if you have no worries about these things at all? And then target someone who brings it up, then laugh at him and become part of a mob mentality to isolate the one bringing it up?

"they have no way to monitor all that", one said. Well, they DO. All that I am saying is true and is already being done. Like Echelon for example.

They are working hard to make is traceable everywhere.

I ask you, if they can use RC helo's with sniffers, is it not feasible that when that technology proves so helpful to LAE, they will use sniffer portals at likely locations? If you smell like weed you will be a terrorist or at least a criminal. Please step out if the line sir..

Paranoia? No, realism. LAE are constantly expending and being what they are allowed to do. New laws give them more authority, all in the name of security.

They became ridiculous real quick. Talk about kilns use 10,000W. But that is exactly the point. Why is he using 10.000W for, lets investigate. And it turns out to be an artist with a kiln. Next person don't have a kiln, but a grow op.

'The company won't care if you pay the bill. But it is not up to them, is it.

ISP's are n ow forced to store traffic data and give it to LEA.

They said that I was way beyond normal paranoia. I am not. But I am much aware of the state of our democracies and security and privacy issues than most people.

But I see reality as it is. The things I mentioned are already going on.
Some said pot didn't smell and how it could ever work. Ridiculousness.

It was pathetic to see the mods join the mob.

verger you should try www.paranoidRus
shines his ppm meter into Verger_OG's window.
man dud your way out there
verger quit lying your guys pot doesnt smell
i would lock myself in a room where no weed could get near me
this dude is great
he made my day actually
so how do you find the "smell" opf pot there isnt one
i dont think u should smoke pot man
i needed the laugh
hes gonna fuckin nail himself in his room
and get his foil suit on

" but u mean to tell me u think that a "sniffer" device would be accurate outdoors in the WIND "

Yes I am saying that.

boot verger
the TV goes two ways guys
sorry verger, no offense but u were spoutin some craziness
dude verger your going to bring the feds here if there watching you we dont want you here lol
well we do all know each other here
verger if you have a single molecule in your brain
your talking about histeria

i dont think verger even grows maby hes a leo?



----------------------------------------
So that is what it is like.

What do you think about these new meters and how this is a threat tom our security and privacy?

And at that, without being ridiculous about it? Chat members of that day not welcome, they have already disqualified themselves inc. operators.

 

[spaceghost22]

Wow, this is quite the power post!! I can see how you could and should be paranoid. I can honestly say that I sympothize with you.

My stance on this would not be to fear the change but to embrace it. This measure on their part will only detect high levels of power consumption. What I WILL do when the time comes is build HID LED panels (yes, some do work for flower, they haven't been properly documented) and store power in deep cells etc. for later use. Create your own power. Take this as an opportunity to advance yourself. Learn about power and the instruments therein. Learn about these "smart" devices. I'm sure if they send wi-fi they also receive wi-fi. They will be sooooooooo vulnerable they won't be able to use them. Keep this controversy alive, keep your posts short and pointed to capture the minds of other people.

Get off of the grid with wind and solar options. Learn to store energy mechanically instead of electronically.

Use your energy creatively instead of allowing them to divert it and turn it into scat and fear. Work toward a goal. Whatever you do DO NOT SHOW FEAR.

be strong...

 

[yamaha_1fan]

maybe a search on the forums on previous discussions on smart meters would be in order.

I cant say about the policies in your country, just here in the USA.


Smart meters have been around for a while here, and there has been a couple cases of datamining by LEO, but there are questions to its legality.

The higher courts have deemed FLIR to be illegal w/o a warrant because it invades the privacy of your home. I imagine LEO monitoring your electrical useage would be an invasion as well.

You mentioned if they get a warrant, well if they get a warrant to check your records, you messed up elsewhere didnt you?



And are you seriously worried about a 600W grow? When it hits 3k or more than be concerned. anything less will blend in as you are going to have multiple things shutting on and off all day long.

 

[Verger OG]

I don't have things on and off. My pc is on of course and I shut it down for the night.

No I do not think I will be in immediate danger. But things are different here. Our LEA already taps more phones than your country. We tap more phones than any other nations. We allow this because no one cares enough.

We will also allow smart meters to invade our privacy. I am sure they say it is all for a good cause...and think of the children. But our mentality has changed here. We are sheep. Cheese sheep. Our parties get away with almost anything these days.

And so it will not require me to be stupid and give away I grow to someone.

Also, americans use more power overall and are much more likely to have things on and off all day. My usage is pretty smooth.

If you analyze me I use my pc and a few savings bulbs. I don't use much other power.

So when my 400W HPS comes on on a clockwork cycle..

If they can analyze your use of power for 10.000W they can alos do it for hundreds of Watt. In principle it gets somewhat cloudier when you use 100W a day always and flick on an extra light for 4 months of 20W. That doesn't mean they can't detect it, which is the point of the meter in the first place.

If the man can get away with doing it, they will. This is the EU you know. A large undemocratic entity.

I doubt they would let me get away with a defense of privacy invasion. That time is long gone now. They take away privacy every day.
This would be just another little baby step, a step that no one will rise against because it is so small. Together all these measures and laws are a giant hazard for an open and free society.

 

[Verger OG]

Wow, this is quite the power post!! I can see how you could and should be paranoid. I can honestly say that I sympothize with you.

My stance on this would not be to fear the change but to embrace it. This measure on their part will only detect high levels of power consumption. What I WILL do when the time comes is build HID LED panels (yes, some do work for flower, they haven't been properly documented) and store power in deep cells etc. for later use. Create your own power. Take this as an opportunity to advance yourself. Learn about power and the instruments therein. Learn about these "smart" devices. I'm sure if they send wi-fi they also receive wi-fi. They will be sooooooooo vulnerable they won't be able to use them. Keep this controversy alive, keep your posts short and pointed to capture the minds of other people.

Get off of the grid with wind and solar options. Learn to store energy mechanically instead of electronically.

Use your energy creatively instead of allowing them to divert it and turn it into scat and fear. Work toward a goal. Whatever you do DO NOT SHOW FEAR.

be strong...

I don't plan to become an electrician just to know how to avoid detection, so I won't embrace it.

Storing power is a nice idea but can you calculate for me how many of what types of accumulators I need to collect? For 400W HPS? What sorts of accu's allow you to power tyhat for 24/7 for all the vegetation state?

Besides, accu's are not too good environmentally.

Photovoltaic is very expensive. To be able to power 400W requires an investment the likes of which I have never done. That costs thousands of euro's and..I can't put it anywhere since I live in an apartment.

I am sure they will provide detections if you want to access that chip or mess with its wifi system. It will just be another flag if you mess you meter up.

So I think your ways out are in reality highly impractical.

Especially when compared to my trusty OLD meter that I still have.

 

[spaceghost22]

I don't plan to become an electrician just to know how to avoid detection, so I won't embrace it.

Storing power is a nice idea but can you calculate for me how many of what types of accumulators I need to collect? For 400W HPS? What sorts of accu's allow you to power tyhat for 24/7 for all the vegetation state?

Besides, accu's are not too good environmentally.

Photovoltaic is very expensive. To be able to power 400W requires an investment the likes of which I have never done. That costs thousands of euro's and..I can't put it anywhere since I live in an apartment.

I am sure they will provide detections if you want to access that chip or mess with its wifi system. It will just be another flag if you mess you meter up.

So I think your ways out are in reality highly impractical.

Especially when compared to my trusty OLD meter that I still have.

Before I continue let me say this site is not one based on fear, quite the opposite. Cowards do not grow illegal substances in their own countries. This could be behind the rude assertions cast upon you by your peers.


Now i have to wonder what is your intention in even speaking on the topic if you do not wish to do anything productive about it? I assume you do not want me to do it for you, right? Was that mob right in the accusations against you? I'm not here to offer you loose solutions so you can target practice with them. My intentions here are of a pure nature. I only wish to assist you in allieviating your VERY profound and unproductive fear as this is not conductive of an affective dissident (which you are automatically by posting on this forum). This works to worsen the situation for you and people reading alongside me.

There seem to have been a large number of misunderstandings ongoing between us. Either it was me to you or the other way around. If you wish to challenge my me I must respectfully decline, this would make me less than what I am and KNOW I CAN BE. This is optimism. This will be my last post in this thread.

Wi-fi vulnerability can be exploited in an UNKNOWN number of ways. This cannot be quatificated. You don't have to steal power to cease their use. They are not confined to the makers specifications. If you figure out a system to damage or circumvent these systems you could release the technique publicly online and neutralize every one of these machines. IF... you want to. You don't want to.

Who says you need to use all that power? If you take my suggestions to the next level (LED; verify them and back them up), you'll see that the very answer to this problem is on the way. I would recommend you keep an open mind.

Let me say again... clearly and undiluted by a paragraph. MECHANICAL STORAGE OF POWER. A rotating shaft puts pressure on a locked gear. It only will go one way until a switch releases it. I know a man who converted a corn silo into a device to store power by lifting and dropping a huge weight, much like a grandfather clock uses weight to do work. A 10,000lb. weight will turn a car generator for weeks if geared to a professional level. WILL THIS POWER THAT 400W? Clearly and resoundingly YES, it will. Don't have land? You can figure it out if you WANT to. WHERE THERE IS A WILL THERE IS A WAY.

Again, for the sake of all who come here to humbly read what you have written, I must urge you to work toward an end rather than what is presently transpiring. It will only do you harm and it's cessation will better benefit you for the rest of your life.

Lets say that you cared deeply enough to post on this very topic here on these boards. Let's say further that you wanted to free yourself in the way of electricity and took it upon yourself to LEARN FOR YOUR OWN SAKE... you'd be happy and not afraid right now. If I were you I would learn about this stuff because it's not going away, it (electricity) carries on it's shoulders the internet and it's infinite knowledge. We ALL know that knowledge is power. If you don't want to learn, THEY will. You shall remain as you are in this aspect while they would move toward your slavery. NEVER DENY EDUCATION AS IT IS THE GRANDEST WEAPON TO BEHOLD.

If it is all gloom and doom then quit growing in the EU and move to a less risky place. I do not wish to be rude, it's just you seem to be rather reluctant to cope with change in a VERY changing world and this goes against my founding philosophies.

Please be a leader in this... You're the one who posted this. Now go in peace brother.

 

[Verger OG]

Before I continue let me say this site is not one based on fear, quite the opposite. Cowards do not grow illegal substances in their own countries. This could be behind the rude assertions cast upon you by your peers.

Thank you, therefore I am not a coward.

Now i have to wonder what is your intention in even speaking on the topic if you do not wish to do anything productive about it?

Well, I appreciate insight. But it has to be practical. And in principle I am not fearful of me growing under a police state. Last summer I grew a plant or two on my balcony. For all to see. Well, partly perhaps.

It seems that as I bring this stuff up, people think I am a coward or fearful or paranoid. But to me this is about connecting dots, see the patterns that are circling around us and will in the future without a single doubt within me, be a pain for any grower.
As the police state grows (no pun intended, hehehe) it will be more difficult to avoid detection and looking away isn't helping.

Therefore I ask at what moment, at what point you will start to participate in mass protests in the streets against governments taking away our freedom and privacy.

When I read the wikipedia article and saw all these nations already being outfitted home by home with these smart meters, I was astounded how far this had gotten. I am sure people were tempted to go along because they might save some on their power bills. There is alaways an excuse and mostly the excuse is one that triggers out apathy and laziness, in this case, laziness to be more economical with your electricity use without soem smart gadget in your meter...cupboard, whatever.

They snuck this meter thing in very stealthily it seems to me. I had not heard about it until on an IT website it was mentioned because of the wifi- component that some of these meters utilize.

And before I know it I find out that, even though they postponed making a decision in The Netherlands about going ahead because of some concerns over technology (possibly what is best at this point), they want to start installing these things in ALL of NL starting in 2009.

Some homes already have them.

So I broaden the discussion about smart meters to include the self-empowerment by governments and distrust of their own citizens and their continuing efforts to micro-manage life itself. And one part of this micro-management and micro-analysis is the smart meter.

To avoid detection any self respecting growers needs to prepare.

You know about NL I hope and how so many rent houses are used to grow. Every day in the Rotterdam area they find like 10 homes or something that are rented just to grow. We have a shortage in affordable housing so that is why they are so keen on on catching them.
Do you not think that law enforcement will take this meter as an extra means of catching them? It is unavoidable.

Compare it with cctv, 10 years ago unthinkable. Now you can't enter any public place like the main city square without being watched, analyzed and face recognized. Point is, if there is technology they can use, they will. If there is a law they can get away with changing (for our own 'safety' and 'think of the children') they will use it.

So to me it is just a question of when they will do a 'rest' or an 'experiment' to see if they can use power company data to find patterns in the use of electricty in homes, first in known grow op areas. And when they find it works, they will expend the test once and then our government will validate it and stamp approved on it. That will be in 2010 I think depending on whether they will outfit the known drug grow areas soon. By 2011 the test is done. And by 2012 I will start to worry because by then I will have such a meter and the police will start to automatically scan for abberations in power use.

They will focus on the biggest strange things they find.

And that not just includes very high power use. No, real growers who rent houses and fill em with plants often tap energy avoiding the meter. So they will also scan for extra low power use. And a quick study on the address will reveal a lot.

By 2013 they will start, if not sooner, all power company data.

Don't say it ain't so. Look at ISP's. They are now by law required to store traffic data for 18 months. We tap more phones here than any other nation, inc. the usa.

It is unavoidable.

And so I wanted to know when people would realize this is the future and how it willa ffect them as small time closet growers. We need a risk assessment.

Your ideas are therefore needed, however, they must be practical. We know there are this strong magnets that people use sometimes to slow the meter down. That trickery will no longer work. FI you used it, you used it because you used a lot of power and to make the bill small.

What will those people do?

I am a peak oiler. As such, I am much aware of photovoltaic, wind energy and the environment, climatology as well.

That is why I can't see how accu's (batteries in English) can be charged cosntanlty to make the light go on at night. And to make sure you have that power, what can you do? At night no sun, so during the day store e.g. 12 hours of 400W. Accu's wear down over time. An added cost to any grow op.

Wind is not always possible, when you are in an apartment, like most people here live in, you can't very well put up a mill, it makes noise, complaints...it is not feasible. Any wind mill you can buy at the hardware store will not generate 400W unless you get a real expensive piece. I know this stuff, I looked it up because I wanted to get one...but several thousands of euro's later you still have only a few hundred Watt.

If there is a working around the meters it should be realtively simple. And not require such investments. If you have a home apart from neighbors, you can use solar panels I suppose and if you are rich enough and install a windmill. But law enforcement is not stupid. You could be an environmentalist or someone who needs much power...and for what then. That is just the game, just as there are these cars driving around here to pick up pirate radio and they see antennae and are affirmed in their triangulations.

I sound paranoid. But this is realism.

I only wish to assist you in allieviating your VERY profound and unproductive fear as this is not conductive of an affective dissident (which you are automatically by posting on this forum). This works to worsen the situation for you and people reading alongside me.

You are talking about the fear of fear because fear is disabling and unproductive.

But as I said, I am not fearful or even paranoid beyond what helps me stay under the radar. My grow ops are so small, cops would laugh at it. My worry however stretches selflessly to more profound growers.

Wi-fi vulnerability can be exploited in an UNKNOWN number of ways. This cannot be quatificated. You don't have to steal power to cease their use. They are not confined to the makers specifications. If you figure out a system to damage or circumvent these systems you could release the technique publicly online and neutralize every one of these machines. IF... you want to. You don't want to.

Well, then we should see if anyone already done this in Italy. I understand from the wiki link that there are many houses with smart meters. There must be home growers there. What are they doing? Are they worried? And why not? And how did they circumvent the systems.

Any info on that?

I am not an IT specialist lol. You may be an optimist. But I don't see me solder small devices or start replacing chips. I wouldn't even mod chip an X-box or something.

Who says you need to use all that power? If you take my suggestions to the next level (LED; verify them and back them up), you'll see that the very answer to this problem is on the way. I would recommend you keep an open mind.

LED tech is cool. My government will actually ILLEGALIZE the 100W old bulb at the end of 2009. And after that phase out more Wattages. Then we will skip the CFL area altogether it seems and embrace LED. I was surprised Philips Lighting agreed, I thought they had invested a lot in cfl and wanted to profit from it more. Apparently not.

I would like to see a grow op with LED. I read discussions here about it. Nothing really constructive though.

But I rather not just trust that it will be all fine in a few years. Technofixes. I don't believe in technofixes. As with peak oil, people believe religiously that 'they' will find 'something' out and all will be well and good night.

Let me say again... clearly and undiluted by a paragraph. MECHANICAL STORAGE OF POWER. A rotating shaft puts pressure on a locked gear. It only will go one way until a switch releases it. I know a man who converted a corn silo into a device to store power by lifting and dropping a huge weight, much like a grandfather clock uses weight to do work. A 10,000lb. weight will turn a car generator for weeks if geared to a professional level. WILL THIS POWER THAT 400W? Clearly and resoundingly YES, it will. Don't have land? You can figure it out if you WANT to. WHERE THERE IS A WILL THERE IS A WAY.

Technofixes. Yes, we don't all have such silo's. Or are so handy that we can make such things. I don't have space for any such system not can I build one. And i do not WANT to build something like that. I don't WANT to be forced to such extremes either. I might stop growing and buy in a coffeshop.
And with me thousands of people who will just give it up because it is too much ahssle. And who is gonbna help me be for all intents and purposes be mechanical engineer. Since I am mathematically challenged, I cannot calculate the phsyiscs involved.

But this is a fine example of technofix religion. If there is a will there is a way. Sorry that is not the case.

In my apartment I cannot build any such systems because every year the housing corp will stop by and check the whole house for problems.

internet and it's infinite knowledge. We ALL know that knowledge is power. If you don't want to learn, THEY will. You shall remain as you are in this aspect while they would move toward your slavery. NEVER DENY EDUCATION AS IT IS THE GRANDEST WEAPON TO BEHOLD.

All fine and well but let's stay pragmatic. And realistic. Slogans like that won't help anyone. We need a magnet. A strong magnet. Something that simple. Growing must NOT be allowed to be able to be done by engineers. I do not want to become the equivalent of a hacker in the grow business.

If it is all gloom and doom then quit growing in the EU and move to a less risky place. I do not wish to be rude, it's just you seem to be rather reluctant to cope with change in a VERY changing world and this goes against my founding philosophies.

All that because I replied the way I did? Perhaps it is better to resist that change than by allowing the net to enclose on us abd apathetically watch how some people demonstrate in the street to oppose the police state expanding all the time.

I prefer to live in freedom rather than be constantly forced to find ways to avoid detection. One day there will be no way to slip by again son.

Do YOU want to be Anne Frank and live in your grow op?

Please be a leader in this... You're the one who posted this. Now go in peace brother.

Thank you but we better all be leaders and march in the streets and oppose the WOT and all the nast shit that entails it.

In the meantime we need to prepare. It is 4 days to 2009. With bad luck, I might have a smart meter at the start of 2010. That is an ultra short time!

And even then I will grow, although I have more and more difficulty justifying using electricity to grow, adding CO² to the atmpsphere, consuming resources that are not needed. I can live without weed you know.

That is why I grew on my balcony, almost in plain sight.

I am not afraid or paranoid.

I hope however that we won't be slackers and wait till we have nowhere left to run and are surprised that the Keystone Cops show up on the doorstep because we forgot to switch on our mechanical devices or the smart meter hacker toolkit.

 

[JJScorpio]

Verger, I don't think the guys in chat meant anything personal. They just wanted to put you through the "initiation" so to speak. They love the tin hat comments. It can sometimes be funny of coarse unless you're the one being started on. Jump right back in and give it to them.....

 

[Babbabud]

Looks like Vergers post on this subject has been treated the same here as they were in chat. Same type of questions and comments. My advice is dont try to force this down ppls throats. You were extremely long winded and tried to dominate the conversation in chat with something that many in chat considered fear mongering. If you want to push your agenda on the conversation then I believe a thicker skin in chat may be nescessary. We ended with some very good PM conversation in chat and I felt I had explained how the people can be there to you. I feel your bringing this up here is just a way to keep this same conversation going ... which frankly after about five minutes in chat noone was really interested in hearing about. I hope your next trip to chat goes alot better with you going along with the flow of the converstation instead of pushing it a direction that you felt it needed to go . Sorry if you felt somehow slighted maybe we can try to get off on another foot next trip through.

PS they way i remember it was after we had a conversation and you went back to chat and went with the subject at hand that everyone treated you quite well and i even thought you might be back as the beggining of friendship might have been formed. Did you come here to complain about chat just to get more attention on your subject ? As i really thought that by the time you left the ppl in chat had excepted you and vice versa ?? whats the deal ?

 

[Verger OG]

The deal is that if I write what happened, a moderator here deletes it. Is it useful to reply? However, you can write these things incriminating me. That is how it works.
If I continue fighting for my rights to be treated as a human being, I will be banned. because mods are always above the rules.

 

[KharmaGirl]

Excuse Me? No, we are not. If we do something wrong, we are explained what we did and how to better handle situations. Moreover, why are you lumping us all into one group? Each Mod is different....personally....I have no idea why this thread has taken a left hand turn and would ask politely that it return to the original topic before more people end up inadvertantly insulted for no reason....


Oh and....Mods don't have the ability to ban people.

 

[whodi]

dude is worried about a damn 400 watt hps......

 

[T-type]

Solution,
Go huge for a 9 week cycle and move shop?
Get a genny?


If these fears are based on reality isn't that what the big boys will do

 

[JJScorpio]

The deal is that if I write what happened, a moderator here deletes it. Is it useful to reply? However, you can write these things incriminating me. That is how it works.
If I continue fighting for my rights to be treated as a human being, I will be banned. because mods are always above the rules.

I think I've been very polite in listening to your concerns.

I also did you a favor which you have turned around and jacked me. Let me explain. Your post was stating what was said in private messages. That violates the TOU and can be cause for banning. That is why I deleted your post. It wouldn't have mattered if it was between you and a mod, you and Gypsy or you and a new member. I would have deleted it.

I checked and after all this happened, every one in chat calmed down and you appeared to be having pleasant conversations. I think that's where we will leave this. I think it should be dropped before administration looks into it. Just jump back into chat and enjoy yourself and have some fun. Everyone there picks on each other so if you don't like that just don't go there......

 

[Verger OG]

dude is worried about a damn 400 watt hps......

I am. Why aren't you? I have explained how this smart meter works, there is a link in my original post. I suspect my posts are too long to read. But if so, why bother to reply?

Unless you know something I do not in regards to a 400W not appearing on their analyses. Or found a way to fool the system.

And at what point should I start worrying? 600W? 1000W?

Think it over son. At what point does one worry.

I am reminded of this quote:

"First they came for the communists, but I was not a communist - so I said nothing.
Then they came for the social democrats, but I was not a social democrat - so I did nothing. Then they came for the trade unionists, but I was not a trade unionist.
And then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew - I did little.
Then when they came for me, there was no one left who could stand up for me."
-- Martin Niemoller, German anti-Nazi pastor during World War II

At what point do we start to worry? When they come for the 10.000W users? But hey we only use 5000W in our grow operation so we do nothing?

And so on and so forth.

"Everyone's values are defined by what they will tolerate when it is done to others. "
-- William Greider

 

[Verger OG]

Solution,
Go huge for a 9 week cycle and move shop?
Get a genny?


If these fears are based on reality isn't that what the big boys will do

Sorry, what is a 'genny'?

But many people here grow at home, so moving is hardly a possibility methinks.

 

[Dirty]

Verger, by genny I believe he means generator.

If you grew on your balcony I gotta ask, are you in an apartment? If so a generator won't you do any good.

If your biggest power is only 400 watts for a hps light, then the solution should be rather easy. get a appliance, or lights, equal to that amount of wattage, and offset them, when the hps comes on, lights go off, when hps goes off, lights etc, come on. being 400 watts, it shouldnt cost too much to run the extra 400 watts twelve hours a day.

I understand where you're comin from, I think alot of us in the states take some things for granted, including myself. While there are task forces and whatnot to take small growers like us out, much more of their attention goes to either big time dealers, mostly of other drugs etc., and many other things.

I take it you're a OG refugee, me too. Been goin there since I was fifteen, haha, did ALOT of sitting back and just reading, that was almost a decade ago.

Don't just look at it as them invading more of your privacy, whenever they do things you just gotta learn to grow smarter. Sorry I can't get into it more, about to hit the bed, repeatedly, then sleep in it.

Stay Safe,
Dirty

 

[Babbabud]

I think going forward with a positive attitude would be a good idea. It wont help to have a fatalistic attitude. After much reflection on this it seems whatever ideas were brought up in chat just didnt seem to work for you. I think if we keep a positive outlook we will be able to jump over this hurtle just like all the others.

 

[Dr. G]

dude we were giving you shit becasue you said that they would find your 400w grow (in chat you saqid only 400....) and that your cops use helo sniffers and can sniff you your grow.....

dont try to pull some shit like saying that we werent concerned about smart meters

ya there are very good reasons to be slightly concerned but not about a 400w grow and deff not about helocopter sniffers get out the tin foil hats all

you were cool after all the parinoid bullshit but now your saying we were abusing you you were arguing for the sake of arguing saying that they will get you cuz of 400w on 12 12

be honest too bad noone saved that convo was the most helarious 2 hrs of my life chat was going so fast you couldnt even read it

dude 400w aint shit most of the other things in my house that use electricity for 12 or more hrs are more than 400w like fish tanks and reptile tanks which are on 12 on plus im running another 5400w flowering plus vegg lights yes i dont have a smart meter but my meter spins so fast it could cut your hand off who cares if someone is looking at it you fucked up somewhere else

stop the fear mongering 400w isnt anything all kitchen appliences use more than 400w

 

[yamaha_1fan]

Damn I need to join chat sometime.

Is it against the TOU to have two screennames? I think I will register one just for chat and skip my proxy. (The proxy doesnt allow chat)


EDIT
3. Multiple Personalities: IC Magazine does not advocate the use of multiple/double member names for just one user. Although it is possible to register multiple personalities, you may not use more than one personality in a single thread. We understand that due to certain security measures you may wish to delete your current member name and create a new one. Use of multiple member names in the same thread will result in that and all associated member names to be banned.

I guess I can use another one for chat. Cool