Reversed Backcrossing:)

[GMT]

why do you want the mothers to be homogeneous? the second you add a father to the line at a subsequent generation, they become hetrogeneous again.

I take it this thread is a follow up from your original one, http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=115954

 

[Forest20]

yea englishrick

tmu cubing I believe needs more then one pollen?

 

[Forest20]

I knew GMT would show up soon enough to teach us haha

 

[Chimera]

There are so many reasons this is a bad idea, I don't even know where to start.

Give me a few days to collect my thoughts... I'll be back.


-Chimera

 

[MOneYMiKe]

ha^ chimera.......rick u so crazy

 

[Elevator Man]

I'm not really sure I understand the methodology you're proposing Rick, but isn't the Cheese just OK as it is? I know I'm not a big fan of Cheese anyway, but this sounds like a lot of work for some very unpredictable results. I got cheesy phenos of Skunk #1 X Flo, and neither parent was remotely cheesy - in fact the skunk was about as tropical-fruity as you can get. I got a musky banana pheno (pictured) and a spicy/medicinal pheno too, all from one cross. Also the high was better than Cheese by a mile - much more soaring and crisp, but still as potent.



Just thinking if you want Cheesy-seeds it might be just as easy to find them in other ways than an infinite-regression approach - not that I know what I'm talking about at all when it comes to genetics, but I do prefer males screwing females in 'the old-fashioned way'...

 

[Forest20]

...but I do prefer males screwing females in 'the old-fashioned way'...

hahaVVV

 

[amoril]

I would think a homogenous homozygous crop would be largely undesirable.

genetic recombination isnt going to work out the way youre thinking, unless you have nothing but dominant alleles. Dominant expression isnt the same thing as having dominant alleles.

your s1 generation will most likely vary somewhat from the original mother. If you pick a plant here that appears to resemble the mother, in all likelihood, the s2s from this plant will not have many similarities with the original mother, in that they will lack much of the overall appeal. Sure, theyll have the 5 or 6 traits youre selecting for, but youll quickly find there to be hundreds of traits you hadnt considered.....the terpenoid pathways are immense.

good luck to you if you want to do it, but I honestly think its going to require much more space and resources than would make it justifiable.

assuming some of your recessive alleles are what carries the desired traits, it could take years with thousands of plants to properly inbreed just a few generations.

 

[englishrick]

all this input is grate......

hay Chimera,,,,you got me hangin,,,,i cant wait for your reply

please keep talking ,,,,il write a relpy later....nice one guys

 

[GMT]

Hi Rick, it would be helpfull for us if you answered questions posed to you, that way we can target our responses a little better, so that they are more usefull to you.
Like the one I asked in post 21, I am assuming that you will be outcrossing at some point, due to the fact that when asked earlier in the thread if you plan to take it to S9, you answered "no bro,,,, S2 at the most,,im only making an S series to make the mothers homogeneous".
Which is why I asked the question.

Amoril makes some extremely helpfull observations for you to consider.

Is it really necessary for you to have quite so many threads on the same topic, I notice you started another one tonight here http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=123088 oh and by the way, I wouldn't mention it, but since you're starting so many threads, reversing is spelled with an S.

 

[englishrick]

why do you want the mothers to be homogeneous? the second you add a father to the line at a subsequent generation, they become hetrogeneous again.

I take it this thread is a follow up from your original one, http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=115954

i think your 100% right about "when i add farthers" ,,,but im not plannin on adding farthers,,,,,,this whole project will just be XX chromozone,,,,once ive produced homogeneous females, only then will i even start thinkin of turning it back into an XY seedline...

but the truth is, im not interested in Males yet,,,,making F1s from the XX seedlines will probbly be my next point of call

 

[GMT]

Fair enough, so just to nail down the process that you are planning, as it's an important point to make, if you aren't going to make S9's, and you aren't going to use any males, then can I assume that the plan is to make S1's, then select, then create feminised F2s, Feminised F3s etc to Feminised F9s, or where ever is your chosen ending point before recombining your 2 separated feminised ibl lines into your final feminised "F1" generation, I'm combining what I've read of your plans in your 3 threads here, if I'm making assumptions that I shouldn't please tell me, I'm just trying to get a grip on your plans.

 

[Colina]

Hi Rick,

Cannabis is a diploid organism (one set of chromosomes inherited from each parent)

But you are correct to say outcrossing plants are usually very much heterozygous.

Breeders of outcrossing plants might typically develop several homozygous lines via selfing, then through test crossing release the best f1 combinations of those. I would expect some of these selfed lines to end up with a failing grade and Sam has reported his experience on that. I would also expect some lines to show excellent combining ability when outcrossed, and would also expect some to both outcross well, as well as stand alone as an inbred line worth growing.

In your example Rick, you said you may go to the S2 then backcross to the original clone. I don't see much point in that. If you were not happy with the results of the S1 then it would seem to me the original clone is probably not the best candidate as a parent for backcrossing to.



Hello Chimera,

Good to see you, hope you are well. As you know, I have been looking forward to hearing your thoughts on selfing schemes in general, benefits/drawbacks, realistic expectations etc. You probably guess I plan to dabble a little regardless . The typical conversation on this currently seems mostly limited to the making of females seeds, and I for one look forward to those capable of taking the conversation beyond that, weighing in. Thank you - respectfully.

 

[englishrick]

I would think a homogenous homozygous crop would be largely undesirable.

yes, but once i recombine the lines , what do you think will happen??,,,,,,,the only reason im thinkin like this is because, it seems no1 has done this work yet

genetic recombination isnt going to work out the way youre thinking, unless you have nothing but dominant alleles. Dominant expression isnt the same thing as having dominant alleles.

i want to get dominant alleles!!..........is this type of method NOT the best way to go about this??

your s1 generation will most likely vary somewhat from the original mother. If you pick a plant here that appears to resemble the mother, in all likelihood, the s2s from this plant will not have many similarities with the original mother, in that they will lack much of the overall appeal. Sure, theyll have the 5 or 6 traits youre selecting for, but youll quickly find there to be hundreds of traits you hadnt considered.....the terpenoid pathways are immense.

the Reverced Backcross method is just an idea, "a means to an end".....the main idea is to isolate trait`s i love, into 1 seedlineline however possible

im planning on targeting 1 trait at a time,,,then combining them, using the "SELFING" method...

good luck to you if you want to do it, but I honestly think its going to require much more space and resources than would make it justifiable.

assuming some of your recessive alleles are what carries the desired traits, it could take years with thousands of plants to properly inbreed just a few generations.

sh1t man,,,,do you think its that bad?...ive been thinkin about this for months

 

[englishrick]

Hi Rick,

Cannabis is a diploid organism (one set of chromosomes inherited from each parent)

But you are correct to say outcrossing plants are usually very much heterozygous.

Breeders of outcrossing plants might typically develop several homozygous lines via selfing, then through test crossing release the best f1 combinations of those. I would expect some of these selfed lines to end up with a failing grade and Sam has reported his experience on that. I would also expect some lines to show excellent combining ability when outcrossed, and would also expect some to both outcross well, as well as stand alone as an inbred line worth growing.

In your example Rick, you said you may go to the S2 then backcross to the original clone. I don't see much point in that. If you were not happy with the results of the S1 then it would seem to me the original clone is probably not the best candidate as a parent for backcrossing to.



Hello Chimera,

Good to see you, hope you are well. As you know, I have been looking forward to hearing your thoughts on selfing schemes in general, benefits/drawbacks, realistic expectations etc. You probably guess I plan to dabble a little regardless . The typical conversation on this currently seems mostly limited to the making of females seeds, and I for one look forward to those capable of taking the conversation beyond that, weighing in. Thank you - respectfully.

i was plannin on isolating 1 trait from the mother into an "S" seedline,,,then using the origonal clones reverced polen to make a weird type of Fem F1

am i wrong col?


you got me itchim for Chimeras reply now

 

[amoril]

you cant make an allele dominant. It already has its expression governed. The point I was making is that you dont know if you want dominant or recessive alleles...you just know you want whatever is expressed in the mother plant.

to determine this, youd have to grow out hundreds of s1 progeny of the mother. if you were able to classify all of the expressive possibilities, youd be able to determine which traits were expressed dominantly, and which recessively, based upon the proportions found in the offspring.

from here though, re-combining them into the right combination of the mother plant is going to be nothing short of miraculous.

most likely, because the mother you are hoping to stabilize is probably a partial-recessive expression. Im not saying it cant be done, but its going to take a LOT of work. which is why I say hundreds or thousands of plants. The breeders who do the work dont work with small numbers of plants, and for good reason. Genetics can be a tricky thing, the only way to have confidence behind it is by seeing a VERY large sample group

 

[englishrick]

but in the case of intersexed "P1" stock,,,i would search the S1`s and dump the origonal clone ,,,

 

[Weedninja]

I wish you luck in your project. The Sk#1 line already shows signs of inbreeding depression.

 

[dkmonk]

So you want to isolate the stinky part of the cheese in the s whatever line, then breed that line w/ the stinky trait locked in, to wha;t??????
The original cheese clone?
outcross to male skunk, then choose from there and back cross to cheese?

It might help if you make a pedigree chart fo all this so we can see your exact plans

edit: were does this "fem f1" from you say come from if you have an s1 seed line made from cheese, and you cross that back to cheese using a reversal from that how would that be f anything? This question is off your post 2 above this one.

Wouldn't you have to outcross to get f? because cheese reversed to make s1 seeds is s obviously then you grow out those and they are female, which still would be s1's and you reverse those which would be s2 or something but still s, and you take pollen from that and hit up your original female, which would be making s1's pretty much again, well idk im not a breeder but I don't think it is going to equal f anything until you outcross.

 

[lordbudly]

it would be an incross or backcross i believe depending on which scenario your talkin about