RePost from Infirmary....Cal Def in Coco...Leaf Curl...

[Sam Slambam]

Howdy folks.

Bogglegum in straight Coco. Seedlings were started in FF Light Warrior, then transplanted to the Coco. Under a 600w MH, temps are around 75f, humidity in the 35-40% range, 18hour light cycle. Ferted with H&G Coco A&B, Root Stimulator, Drip Clean, Hand watered every two to three days when the medium becomes just damp to the touch. Roots look healthy and are growing at an exceptional rate. I am using R/O water ph'ed to 5.8 and I'm currently feeding at 1.2 EC. Growth seems great but recently these rust spots started popping up on a couple of the plants. The leaf curl has been more persistant. In my research I seem to find that this could be b/c of heat stress/low humidity. But I feel like all of those conditions are pretty much on target. The best I could figure on the spots is that it is possibly a Calcium def. I have flushed once just to be sure its not salt buildup, I've also been giving a teaspoon of Cal/Mag+ per gallon of feed water.

Any thoughts would be highly appreciated.

Sam.

 

[Guest 18340]

Normally, coco gets watered, with nutes, everyday.
I agree that everything seems to be on target, so try watering/feeding everyday and see if the problem goes away.

 

[Cali smoke]

they look thirsty, like evlme2 said, coco normally gets watered with nutes everyday.

also, the ph could be a problem and might be causing lockout, try putting your ph to 6.0

 

[bounty29]

If you're using R/O water you should add some Cal/Mag to it. I was afraid I'd have that problem, so I've been using tap water and haven't seen any issues. My tap is about 0.2ec, if yours is too high you could just try mixing it with tap water until it's under 0.3ec~

Edit: Didn't see that you add Cal/Mag til my second read through. I had coco pots that only got watered every 2-3 days, it stayed damp and never saw these problems so I don't think it's the watering frequency. If it's damp on the top, then it's definitely damp inside the rootball.

 

[clowntown]

In my research I seem to find that this could be b/c of heat stress/low humidity. But I feel like all of those conditions are pretty much on target.

Great job on doing some research first. Although I'm a bit inexperienced at this as well, seems like you have your answer... looking like the classic textbook Ca deficiency.

How far away are your lights from the canopy? Is it air-cooled? Perhaps focus on the canopy temperature, in combination with slightly lower than ideal RH, rather than the room temperature.

Any way to raise the RH? On my current run I've had some very similar issues in early veg with RH & heat, as I was adjusting and getting comfortable with running 1k's for the first time.

The best I could figure on the spots is that it is possibly a Calcium def. I have flushed once just to be sure its not salt buildup, I've also been giving a teaspoon of Cal/Mag+ per gallon of feed water.

Have you been giving them the Cal-Mag+ throughout, or just recently after seeing the deficiencies? Seems like I've battled Ca deficiencies a bit when starting with coco in my past grows, especially in veg, with my low-TDS (<= 40ppm @ 0.5) when not supplementing with Ca. As I'm sure you're already aware, these already existing spots won't go away... just that you should not see any more new rusty spots. Although the tsp (5mL) per gallon seems OK. If anything, just a tad high for my personal tastes and experience, but then again I have no idea how much H&G's Cocos A+B has in it, and how heavily you're feeding them of it... but then again you are using R/O...

 

[Guest 18340]

Just to clarify, what i meant was, maybe youre not getting enough cal/mg because you're not watering/feeding everyday.
I use Gh flora seires and in the past i've used these nutes with staright r/o water and the only time i got a cal/mag def was when the mix was too weak, i usually started at 1/4 strength. So i just started using tap water with the Gh nutes and never looked back.

 

[Sam Slambam]

Wowee Zowee! Thanks for the flurry or replies folks! Mucho appreciatedo!

evlme2 I am now trying to water and feed everyday to roughly 15% runoff and perhaps we shall see if that does the trick. I am just coming off of being a soil guy and it still feels funny to me to water everyday, know what I mean? For pete's sake if I did that in soil I'd be frigging ruined! BTW, your thought about the deficiency potentially being caused by the lack of feedings sounds pretty spot on, makes very good sense to me. Hopefully I haven't screwed things up by adding the extra Cal and Mag to the mix via the Cal/Mag+, if so I suppose I can always flush flush flush.

Calismoke - If things don't turn around I will also try your suggestion of raising the Ph a tick or two, thank you friend.

Clowntown - My hood is aircooled and has a glass divider, it really does help keep the temps down by about 10degrees. I'm also running a window unit which helps keep me on target, BUT, that also f's with my ability to dial in RH, know what I mean? I've tried many an approach to raising the RH and have yet to find one that works. I'm running a 600w MH btw.
I have not been giving the Cal/Mag the whole time, here's why; I figured that since the H&G nutes schedule specifies adding their nutes to R/O water that I wouldn't need to make up for the lack of Cal and Mag in R/O as I would in a soil grow when watering with R/O.
I moved my light up another 5 inches or so today. It was about 18-20 inches from the canopy. We shall see.


The other things I find funny are that I have a few Mountain Jams in a slightly amended Moonshine Mix right along side these Bogglegums and they aren't having any of these problems.

Also, can anyone chime in on what brand and style EC meter they use, I have a Milwaukee EC meter and I'm far less than happy with it to be honest.

Anywhooo, thanks a frigging shit-ton everybody, karma points galore for all!

 

[JITAMON]

Don't forget that each plant of each strain is an individual. When we grow multiple strains from seed this is especially true. If one chooses to run multiple strains off 1 rez, that takes some skill. I suggest that you clone and/or regrow your best mama. The one or one's that most exhibit the traits you are looking for. Remember you ARE growing seedling's, not clones.

 

[clowntown]

Gotta agree with JITAMON here a bit as well, generally speaking, although I've heard Bogglegum to be a very uniform plant. I've personally experienced this range of different requirements from a single pack of seeds of the same strain, where certain individuals will have different nute requirements compared to her sisters, including Ca. I think this was most noticeable during my (Sagarmatha) Western Winds from-seed run, where a certain phenotype drooped and showed textbook Ca defs while the rest did not.

 

[wickedpete66]

Hey Sam.-------- I use a milwaukee ec meter and I have to say its pretty accurate. You might want to try to adjust cal/mag before you put in your other nutes. My tap water comes in at about .14 ec roughly 98ppm. I add cal/mag till it reads an ec of .36 which is about 250ppm. I have read that 250ppm of cal mag is a good starting point for most plants in coco. I then add the rest of my nutes til I get an ec between 1.0 and 1.4 ec which is roughly 750-1000 ppm

 

[Sam Slambam]

wickedpete thanks man, that's pretty informative. I guess my problem is that I don't have any more of the Calibration fluid, the 1413 I believe it is. So I am afraid that I can't rely on the reading as I have no valid reference. My meter just seems pretty instable, the slightest movement seems to send the meters readings flying in one direction or another. I have been looking into the Bluelabs Truncheon as a possible replacement.

 

[wickedpete66]

Sam get the calibration fluid and try recalibrating the ec meter. If you cant calibrate call milwaukee directly and they will troubleshoot with you. If they cant get it to reset to factory defaults they will send you a replacement. I have one of their waterproof ph pens and couldn't get it to calibrate. I gave them a call and we went through some troubleshooting and coulnd't set back to factory defaults. The tech gave me a rma# I returned it a week later I had a new one. Their customer service is awsome

 

[Sam Slambam]

thanks pete, excellent to know!

In case anyone is still keeping up with this thread,
I've been watering everyday now and well, at the very least they look greener.
Meaning they must be taking in more nutes I suppose, and the spotting seems to have subsided.

Still though, the leaf curling persists. Although, I am unsure if say, as with nutrient deficiencies, that the curling that has already happened will stay but should show up no more on new growth?

I suppose I will find out.

Other than that, growth seems great, and I think I've narrowed it down to the two best candidates for possible cloning/ mothers.

Now lets just hope they turn out to be ladies!
( Unlike my 5 Mountain Jams which I are already showing sex, of which only ONE appears to be female!, BUT one of the males looks amazing and grows like a fucking champ so I think I may chuck his pollen on a bud or two of the one lady I do have, which BTW looks to have a VERY sativa'y structure about her and appears very "Flo'ish" with purple/red stems and slightly purpling leaves already, maybe even cross him to some of the Bogglegum, Mountain Gum? BoggleJam? )

 

[Sam Slambam]

Bad News....

Bad News....

This grow has definitely been a test of both my skill and patience. I started everything out in a Hydrohut which almost turned my poor babies into doodie turds. So after rescuing my newborns and moving them to a safe harbor and nursing them back to health, ( mind you these were five mountain jams in soil), my Coco experiment with 4 Bogglegums from seed began. I started the Bogglegums in FF LightWarrior and they seemed to love it. After transplanting them all into 100% Coco I began hand watering following the H&G nute schedule and, well, that's where my problems began.

They have been growing "OK" I suppose but they look sickly, not at all what I would deem to be "vigorous". Then there is the weird inexplicable leaf curl and the equally as inexplicable rusty spotting. The spotting is not really improving at all, for a minute there I thought for sure that it was, but I now see that it is still spreading.

Oh, did I also mention that out of my 5 Mountain Jams, ONE turned out to be a lady!?!?!?

To be honest folks, I'm beginning to think I'm just not cut out for soil less mediums. I think too much like soil.

Here is where I am with things; I think I'm just going to scrap it all, ( fucking sucks too, 2 months worth of bullshit and strife down the drain, not to mention the wasted money on supplies and utility costs), get as many clones out of it as I can and start all over again, but in soil. It's obvious to me that there is A LOT of potential in Coco, probably way more than any other medium, but I just don't have the patience or time to be hand watering everyday, ( although I have been), much less the time or money to start down the route to automated watering.

So I think it will be soil from here on. I hate to sound like a quitter here folks but, there is only but so much disappointment one man can take. Who knows, I may just take a bunch of clones and let what's left finish flowering just to see what's what.

Anyway, thanks for all the help and input that everyone has provided along the way, it really was and is quite appreciated.

I'll up some pix in a bit just to illustrate to all what I've been dealing with.

Peace

 

[gmanwho]

Dont give up on the coco. I can say, in coco i have experienced far better growth, and higher trich coverage then i ever seen in soil. plus the ph imo is easier to maintain.

besides its your first run...

B-safe

 

[Guest 18340]

yeah dude, dont give up.
Starting over is one thing but totally giving up, nah. If you give up then you won't learn from your mistakes.
Like you said, maybe you just think too much like soil.
Coco is some amazing stuff and its easy as hell to use. Just gotta learn a few fundamentals and you're set.
People here will help if ya got problems.
I did alittle research(used google search engine) on your leaf curling and spots and from i found it could be a calcium def. Alot of people experience a calcium def when growing in coco.
http://www.onlinepot.org/grow/PHfluctuationsornutrients3.htm
Scroll down to figure 15 and 16.
Lets start there...

 

[MDT]

Sam don't give up. My first coco grow, I experienced the exact problems as you are experiencing now. Out of 20 plants, 4 were showing the symptoms, the other 16 are extremely healthy. I noticed that the ones showing the symptoms were the ones that was really stressed during cloning.
The leaf curl cleared after I supplemented 4ML of Calmag per Gal in addition with my already existing hard tap water of 240PPM. But it's still having problems absorbing food, even when I hit it with 1500PPM of nutes. I'm chalking it up as being bad genes because the other 16 are flourishing with no symptoms of any def.

 

[Sam Slambam]

Wow, thanks folks! Good peoples on here to be sure.

I have been wondering lately if any of my problems could possibly be stemming from the no-name Coco I used? In conjunction with that, I also expanded the stuff in the bathtub, which I did my best to sanitize with some homebrewing bottle sanitizer I use. THEN, I put it in some trashbags where it sat for a couple of months b/c I didn't turn out to have the time then to start this grow. Some of it is STILL moist!


@MDT- 4 ML of calmag!? Wow! Thats a lot! Perhaps I'll try that out on one of the less than desirable plants and see if that makes any diff.


In the end though, I think it's just the daily handwaterings that are the major detractor for me. I have a busy schedule and sometimes it's hard to find the time.

Again folks, thanks ever so much for all the tips/ thoughts/ motivation/ kindness, hopefully one day I'll be able to return the favor for others who are just starting out too.

 

[gmanwho]

Sam says ...""""""I have been wondering lately if any of my problems could possibly be stemming from the no-name Coco I used? In conjunction with that, I also expanded the stuff in the bathtub, which I did my best to sanitize with some homebrewing bottle sanitizer I use. THEN, I put it in some trashbags where it sat for a couple of months b/c I didn't turn out to have the time then to start this grow. Some of it is STILL moist! """"


The no name coc could be very high in salts already. U need to test your run off. i sometimes with old coco can get a runnoff of 2000ppm, when i'm feeding 1400ppm in mid flower. BAD, those salts and the possible high k lock alot of nutes out.

whats the color of your runnoff, i bet the coco sitting in the bag could have been decaying. = your problems.

B-safe

 

[Cozy Amnesia]

whats the color of your runnoff, i bet the coco sitting in the bag could have been decaying. = your problems.

Waite...you're saying that damp coco can decay? FUCK! I have a sack of coco still damp from when I pre-treated it and it's been just sitting there for like 2-3 weeks.

What can I do to try it out? any cool ways to do this other than spread it around and let it evaporate?