Portland Super Cup

[Symbiotic AD]

Not to sounds like a total prick Sym, but your asking him to share cup winning tech, on an open public forum. To establish a good purging tech you will spend thousand of dollars on analytical results and hrs of r&d.

Regardless if your products are intended for retail outlets, spending the money on analytics and spending the time developing your own data and tech should be a priority. There's not too much to getting low ppms other than patience and data.

You're not being a prick, I follow the school of thought that if you don't try than the outcome is always failure. I respect that he has proprietary tech, but I just wanted to know if it was what would be considered a basic purge or something more complex.

I'm not so concerned that my product wont have low residual solvent levels, but more concerned with the rare opportunity to ask a professional, cup-winning, extractor a question about something he is clearly very passionate about and very skilled in.

I currently have a Gas Chromatography instrument from SRI with the column necessary to test for residual solvents within my extracts, the issue is that my lab isn't full constructed so I can't utilize the instrument. I'm also not implying that I don't tend to have my concentrates laboratory tested, in fact its quite the opposite, every batch that is produced out of my facility is going to be sent out to a third party lab. Again, I ask for the potential to learn more from a professional and to get my gears turning, not to short-cut my process.

Edit: And my background is in Nuclear Pharmaceutical Quality Control. I am very much an advocate for collecting data to optimize product development and ensure the safety of the product.

 

[RegisPhilburn1]

Congrats on winning RegisPhilburn. If you don't mind can you share a bit about having <10ppm residual solvents. No need to go into specifics but are you using the highest quality solvent with a standard vacuum oven, or are you doing a secondary process to removing residuals?

I'm currently using the 99.99% butane and propane from Refined Hydrocarbon with standard purging, but haven't produced anything for sales so have not had it tested. Having the lowest possible residual solvent levels while retaining as much of the plant properties is a goal of mine.

No problem, My purging equipment is pretty standard, AI Vac oven, alcatel 2021i vac pump, 99.85 Butane and 99.9 propane from specialty air which we distill several times before use.
Basic Low and slow technique, Thin film, match your temp to your oil viscosity and flip often. We dont always hit the <10ppm mark, to me <100ppm is acceptable. I have seen terpene levels go from 126mg/g to 64mg/g trying to get below 150ppm solvent, so that last little bit is sensitive. Like perm said its mostly about matching experience with data not much i can tell you in text, You will be able to dial it in quite well once you get that GC going! Thats awesome to have. I Bet that i often overdo the purge.


I should add that there were a number of really good samples in the judges pack. Really enjoyed some of them, #6 Cookies and Cream by Jesse James was the best rosin i have had yet, and certainly changed my perspective on it. it was also a well organized event in my experience. Excited for the finals

 

[Zapadra]

@Regis certainly sounds like you deserved the win! Solid logic to me. All the tech in the galaxy will only take the extract so far. The human element is vital, after all, the extracts' quality will be subject to human bias.

 

[Gray Wolf]

A good point and one that will keep the large corporations out of the artisan market.

In Oregon, the micro brewery and estate wines have flourished, despite Budweiser and Gallo, because the price is more important to some, and artisan quality to others.

Large corporations can't produce artisan concentrates in vast lots, and when they've bought successful artisan brands, they stopped being artisan under large corporate control.

Even if the artisan tells exactly what he's doing, it doesn't include how his senses are perceiving and his brain is processing what is going on.

In martial arts there is the moment of "now", when a strike made in a single tempo, will arrive before the opponents reflex's can parry it, so the fight is over before it starts, also known as the sucker punch.

Calculating the moment to deliver that punch is a bad thing, because it means that you are in your head rather, than paying 100% attention to your opponent, and letting your training do its thang.

It is in one of those moments, that he does the same thing to you.

A tongue in cheek comparison, but they are both based on immediate and instinctual reaction to stimulus perceived by our senses.

You can have some one explain 100% attention, repetitive training, and the timing of now to a novice, but it takes years of actual practice for them to be skilled at it in competition.

 

[Pangea]

Half the terps gone from trying to get under 150ppm?! Is this normal?

I'd rather smoke the extra 6% terps if it meant .0025% more butane, pretty sure the terps will cover any tane taste at those levels?

 

[Symbiotic AD]

A good point and one that will keep the large corporations out of the artisan market.

In Oregon, the micro brewery and estate wines have flourished, despite Budweiser and Gallo, because the price is more important to some, and artisan quality to others.

Large corporations can't produce artisan concentrates in vast lots, and when they've bought successful artisan brands, they stopped being artisan under large corporate control.

Even if the artisan tells exactly what he's doing, it doesn't include how his senses are perceiving and his brain is processing what is going on.

You can have some one explain 100% attention, repetitive training, and the timing of now to a novice, but it takes years of actual practice for them to be skilled at it in competition.

This is all absolutely true. Once you lose the passion to do something, it doesn't matter how good you are at it, the quality or performance will be significantly different.

No problem, My purging equipment is pretty standard, AI Vac oven, alcatel 2021i vac pump, 99.85 Butane and 99.9 propane from specialty air which we distill several times before use.
Basic Low and slow technique, Thin film, match your temp to your oil viscosity and flip often. We dont always hit the <10ppm mark, to me <100ppm is acceptable. I have seen terpene levels go from 126mg/g to 64mg/g trying to get below 150ppm solvent, so that last little bit is sensitive. Like perm said its mostly about matching experience with data not much i can tell you in text, You will be able to dial it in quite well once you get that GC going! Thats awesome to have. I Bet that i often overdo the purge.


I should add that there were a number of really good samples in the judges pack. Really enjoyed some of them, #6 Cookies and Cream by Jesse James was the best rosin i have had yet, and certainly changed my perspective on it. it was also a well organized event in my experience. Excited for the finals

Thank you for the response, I greatly appreciate it.

 

[Zapadra]

A good point and one that will keep the large corporations out of the artisan market.

In Oregon, the micro brewery and estate wines have flourished, despite Budweiser and Gallo, because the price is more important to some, and artisan quality to others.

Large corporations can't produce artisan concentrates in vast lots, and when they've bought successful artisan brands, they stopped being artisan under large corporate control.

Even if the artisan tells exactly what he's doing, it doesn't include how his senses are perceiving and his brain is processing what is going on.

In martial arts there is the moment of "now", when a strike made in a single tempo, will arrive before the opponents reflex's can parry it, so the fight is over before it starts, also known as the sucker punch.

Calculating the moment to deliver that punch is a bad thing, because it means that you are in your head rather, than paying 100% attention to your opponent, and letting your training do its thang.

It is in one of those moments, that he does the same thing to you.

A tongue in cheek comparison, but they are both based on immediate and instinctual reaction to stimulus perceived by our senses.

You can have some one explain 100% attention, repetitive training, and the timing of now to a novice, but it takes years of actual practice for them to be skilled at it in competition.

It's an Engineers' world (un)fortunately. It would seem to me that in principal, even the "purest"/"best" extract according to scientific parameters, could be deemed lesser/"worse" than an impurer sample. We are considering two massively subjective effects, one involving olfactory senses and the other psycho-active/perceptive. To eliminate the fastest processor on the planet (the brain) would remove the essence of the craft. In my very humble opinion

 

[Thomas@LRL]

No problem, My purging equipment is pretty standard, AI Vac oven, alcatel 2021i vac pump, 99.85 Butane and 99.9 propane from specialty air which we distill several times before use.

Basic Low and slow technique, Thin film, match your temp to your oil viscosity and flip often. We dont always hit the <10ppm mark, to me <100ppm is acceptable.

Any chance you can elaborate on this? I'm getting conflicting advice about purging ethanol. I'd rather do low and slow thin film for 24-48 hours, we don't have a rotary evap (heidolph incoming) at the moment so we've been doing it in a Vac Oven @ -29.5" and have tried everything from 70-150deg Farenheit. Currently we're still getting >1000ppm residual ethanol despite 48 hours and flipping. Purging on a slick mat in a Cascade Tech TVO-2 with the welch pump, no cold trap. The argument that others are making is that at a low temperature the oleoresin is preventing molecular transport and keeping the ethanol from evaporating off. Any help at all would be appreciated.

 

[Rickys bong]

Currently we're still getting >1000ppm residual ethanol despite 48 hours and flipping. Purging on a slick mat in a Cascade Tech TVO-2 with the welch pump, no cold trap. The argument that others are making is that at a low temperature the oleoresin is preventing molecular transport and keeping the ethanol from evaporating off.

Are you using a Welch diaphragm pump or rotary vane pump?

Both will have different issues. The diaphragm pump won't pull high enough vacuum, and the rotary will lose vacuum quickly due to the oil being diluted with alcohol.

This is where a good vacuum gauge pays for it self. Ensuring your system is leak free, and that the pump is pulling good vac can't be achieved with a mechanical gauge.
Without basic instrumentation troubleshooting is difficult.

Multiple flips are probably going to be needed as well...

RB

 

[Thomas@LRL]

Are you using a Welch diaphragm pump or rotary vane pump?

Both will have different issues. The diaphragm pump won't pull high enough vacuum, and the rotary will lose vacuum quickly due to the oil being diluted with alcohol.

This is where a good vacuum gauge pays for it self. Ensuring your system is leak free, and that the pump is pulling good vac can't be achieved with a mechanical gauge.
Without basic instrumentation troubleshooting is difficult.

Multiple flips are probably going to be needed as well...

RB

http://welchvacuum.com/products/part-2052b-01

This is the pump we are using and the gauge is on the Cascade Tech oven itself. I've been wondering about basic maintenance etc but the built in gauge claims it is pulling 29.5. We are flipping every half hour roughly, the biggest argument is over temperature and whether or not the oil has to be in a "liquid" state due to heat 100+deg F for the ethanol to evaporate.

 

[Rickys bong]

Since it's a diaphragm pump you don't have to worry much about maintenance, at least not the same frequency as an oil bath pump.

Drawback being the pump is only rated for 1.5 torr which is rather coarse vacuum. You'd have much better results using the 2052 to pull off most of the etoh and then using a oil bath pump to get the last bit.

1.5 torr isn't going to cut it. I know if you hooked up a pump capable of 50 milliTorr or better you'd see a huge amount of bubbling once you get under 1 torr...

On the temp, basic physics dictates that the oil be liquid in order for the ethanol molecules to migrate to the surface of the oil and evaporate. The thinner the oil is, the easier the ethanol can find it's way to the surface. Think of a balloon at the bottom of a swimming pool full of jello compared to a pool of water. Which one is going to allow the balloon to escape?

RB

 

[Thomas@LRL]

Since it's a diaphragm pump you don't have to worry much about maintenance, at least not the same frequency as an oil bath pump.

Drawback being the pump is only rated for 1.5 torr which is rather coarse vacuum. You'd have much better results using the 2052 to pull off most of the etoh and then using a oil bath pump to get the last bit.

1.5 torr isn't going to cut it. I know if you hooked up a pump capable of 50 milliTorr or better you'd see a huge amount of bubbling once you get under 1 torr...

On the temp, basic physics dictates that the oil be liquid in order for the ethanol molecules to migrate to the surface of the oil and evaporate. The thinner the oil is, the easier the ethanol can find it's way to the surface. Think of a balloon at the bottom of a swimming pool full of jello compared to a pool of water. Which one is going to allow the balloon to escape?

RB

Thanks RB! I appreciate the help immensely.