plant sap pH 6.4

[GMT]

ignoring the discussion on vampires unicorns father christmas et al,
has it been discussed whether or not the ph of plant sap remains constant throughout the entire plant? ie is the ph value the same in yellow bottom leaves that are dying as the top healthy new leaves? Or is it only sap from the stem that should be measured?
I have no idea about the validity of this 6.4 claim, but its something I think is worth us looking into as a group.

 

[MrSterling]

VG, you have my heart.

 

[Coba]

Hey, i was just talking to my buddy who grows strawberries, hydroponic "pick-ur-own" strawberries... year round.

His family is from upstate NY, and they have a few greenhouses up there... where they grow various hydroponic herbaceous annual treats for the everyday consumer.

I asked him about his strawberry plant's sap pH... and if he had ever checked it, or if if family does or had ever done so...

I've never felt more stupid in my life. he looked at me like I was speaking out of three heads.

How should I approach him, in the future?

 

[Microbeman]

I've thought about mentioning this since first reading portions of this thread. I've finally mustered it. Virtually every single garden which I have had, which is comprised of living soil (partial definition is over 2 years unmolested, critical mass of 3 cubic ft min., all the players; flagellates, naked & testate amoebae, bacteria/archaea, fungi, bacterial feeding nematodes; the last is of great importance) has.....wait for it.....balanced out at a pH of 6.4. This has been regardless of adjusting the pH of water...ever and has been regardles of water coming out at 6.0 or up to 7.3. Why? Because the microbial population controls the pH. (in concert with plants to a degree)

I have nothing against pH meters and own and use 4 of them currently. One thing I can tell you almost absolutely, one can never trust only one meter. Even the expensive ones can go whacky at any time. Another is, that I would not trust a pH meter that cost $30. Hannas are good quality.

 

[c-ray]

ignoring the discussion on vampires unicorns father christmas et al,
has it been discussed whether or not the ph of plant sap remains constant throughout the entire plant? ie is the ph value the same in yellow bottom leaves that are dying as the top healthy new leaves? Or is it only sap from the stem that should be measured?
I have no idea about the validity of this 6.4 claim, but its something I think is worth us looking into as a group.

great idea, I'm gonna look into that a-sap..

 

[shmalphy]

I like to stir my ACT with my fully erect penis... So the microbes can "feel the love"...

But seriously, I would love to see an actual picture of a cannabis plant grown with these methods. Let's see what they look like when the ph is off, and how you correct it.

 

[c-ray]

I have a pH meter but have been using the 5.5-8.0 papers lately to pH the res, close enough for my purposes..

 

[Microbeman]

I have a pH meter but have been using the 5.5-8.0 papers lately to pH the res, close enough for my purposes..

Not very close at all unfortunately.

 

[c-ray]

well they are both consistent with calibration fluid, unless the calibration fluid is off I think we are a-ok..

 

[Microbeman]

collectively and individually we create our own reality from what we think and feel

homeopathy / biodynamics = quantum physics

the new science confirms this

from http://french-news-online.com/wordpress/?p=5036#axzz1WwIoMLUb

ps I am seeing pH sap readings consistently between 6.2-6.4

all is well

With paper test strips? I call BS

 

[Microbeman]

roll up a leaf and squeeze between 2 spoons with vice grips or a bench vise

I squeeze a drop or 2 onto the refractometer to test brix 1st, then touch the pH paper onto the refractometer to test pH

Completely innacurate for zeroing on 6.4.

 

[Microbeman]

I do all the same things you do and still have time to test plant sap pH and brix, it is 5 minutes at most a day,.. I usually test the same plants every time as a sort of control then test another plant or 2 at random.. I do a lot of visual plant symptom observation, that's easy and helpful but with plant sap pH and brix analysis even more helpful.. I am of the view that the more information the better.. I don't really get the aversion towards pH meters, they can be had for 20 bucks and in my case when I was away for a week and had a friend watering without pH adjustment the brix went down big time, pH of the water was in the 7-7.5 range, so for me that is enough evidence that pH monitoring and adjustment is extremely useful in my garden.. one thing that should be mentioned in case it has not been made clear enough and that is that plant sap pH and plant sap brix are equally important metrics, so if one is going to take the time to do one they may as well do both, only takes an extra few seconds.. for me personally, because that is what it is all about me me me, I have been using the plant sap pH and brix data in combination with visual observation to refine my cmc compost recipe, so it is conceivable that I will not need to do it anymore at some point, as the compost the way I make it will be pretty much the same every time.. for folks who are merely curious but perhaps not quite curious enough to take the giant leap of faith required to order 40 bucks worth of garden tools, I suggest just tasting some petiole or leaf and take note is it sweet like stevia and smooth without any bitterness, or is it bitter and not so sweet? that would be step negative one and if there is any bitterness then perhaps it may be a good idea to go for the refractometer and pH 5.5-8.0 papers, if one is not afraid to hand over the reigns from intuition into the realm of direct measurement.. just because a plant 'looks great' does not mean it is functioning at it's highest efficiency, and most importantly it can look fabulous and still be completely vulnerable to pest and disease, pretty sure we could find a few examples of that here and in the real world (<just a guess)
in summary, take the leap but only if you are bored or extremely curious, it works for me and is very helpful and could be for you too (only one way to find out)
or as my good friend the green supreme would say in a situation like this:
'can't win if you don't play'

I thought you did not have a meter but used test papers. I have been frustrated by total inaccuracy with reagant pH tests many times before tossing them as useless. Where is the future? Just words?

 

[c-ray]

I am going to buy a twin cardy pH meter one day I think, this is just so I could get a taste and it has been extremely useful info for me helping me to refine the ratios of minerals in the cmc compost I have been making.. mineral balance is one of the legs, as is biology, remove one of the legs and the table collapses it's the law of toyland
I now have a recipe for making cmc compost that I can make anywhere I go because the ingredients are common, and it works fabulous just transplant and water and the plants go to sap pH 6.4 +/- 0.2, brix goes 12+, no pm no bugs no interventions, plants grow like mad, meds are higher quality compared to what I have done in the past so bottom line I am a happy camper.. I do believe this is good info maybe not everyone appreciates it but if it can help a few I am sure they appreciate as well.. I am always grateful for everyone's constructive input as only through mutual cooperation will we succeed in creating a new renaissance in society one which recognizes the importance of food quality and how we must aim for the top of the pyramid..

 

[shmalphy]

So wait... you are saying if you get the humus component of your soil down, everything else will fall into place? Interesting... Where have I heard that before?

 

[MrSterling]

Ok now I've been drug free for a week so maybe my brain isn't firing...but cray that sounds like despite all this pH testing talk you've just come back to the ethos that if you build the soil right all this work is unnecessary.

Also, I question the time it would take for a commercial setup. Doing this might be good for a small producer, but can you imagine going through that vice rigamoral for like 80 plants? Different strokes for different folks obviously. I guess I just question the general usefulness.

 

[SeaMaiden]

But all this stuff has come from the organic ag sphere. Cannabis growers didn't come up with it, nor did they/we make it up.

And the question is this--have you made the soil 'right'? How do you gauge that, by how high the bud gets you? That's as accurate as the test strips, at the very least.

 

[c-ray]

you guys are missing the part about soil mineral balance..

indoors is easy but the real power of this comes when doing soil tests on large acreage and it's help in knowing which minerals and amendments to apply, especially when budget is taken into consideration.. as an example of how this might be useful / practical right now I am working on a large certified organic place they have like 1200 acres but it is all like pH 8, and the budget is low, so we need to be quite specific about which minerals to apply to improve the ratios.. the budget only allows for so much so we will make a compost with the minerals needed to bring the ratios in line, but we can only make so much compost due to budget no where near the amount that is needed so we will apply a small amount in furrow at sowing instead of broadcasting and then use foliars to help the plants acquire what they need throughout the season as needed.. soil food web tests have been done and they are all good to very good for the most part but that does not help much when the Mg levels are through the roof, and specific traces are just not there.. biology can only go so far.. the point in this case is taking our minimal budget and applying it in the most efficient manner for the greatest effect in the shortest amount of time.. growing the highest brix plants possible starting day one.. pH sap monitoring is very helpful here and does not take much time nor money..

 

[MileHighGuy]

you guys are missing the part about soil mineral balance..

I don't think anyone is missing that point here. But I will say it has been really really nice to read a real discussion on this thread. I look forward to learning more about this information without all the copying and pasting...

Let's here about your compost recipe! Would love to know how you get a good compost with local ingredients so dialed in.

Also, what is the exact Mineral Balance you're hoping to achieve?
And here's what I would like to learn more about.... once you have a target mineral balance.... how do you achieve that on a measurable level?

 

[SeaMaiden]

C-ray, even just doing a few thousand square feet, budget must be considered. I won't say an exact balance can be so easily achieved, but a set of ranges, certainly. If everyone were growing in exactly the same soil, we'd have no variety, no... terroir, as it were. I like that as much in my foods and 'consumables' as I do my wine (still on the hunt for a good Alsatian Pinot Gris out here).

Let me see if I can find something that's not in pdf format.

http://foliarsprays.com/en/mineralized-soil.html

Interesting that it's a site for foliar applications, discussing mineralization of the soil.

 

[c-ray]

I don't think anyone is missing that point here. But I will say it has been really really nice to read a real discussion on this thread. I look forward to learning more about this information without all the copying and pasting...

Let's here about your compost recipe! Would love to know how you get a good compost with local ingredients so dialed in.

Also, what is the exact Mineral Balance you're hoping to achieve?
And here's what I would like to learn more about.... once you have a target mineral balance.... how do you achieve that on a measurable level?

at the big organic farm the Ca:Mg ratio is between 1:1 to and 1:2, looking to get it closer to 7:1.. this is the most important ratio of all as far as I am concerned and determines to a large degree the soil structure..
Ca we are aiming for 10:1
Ca:B aiming for 1000:1
P:K aiming for 1:1
P:S aiming for 2:1
P:Zn aiming for 10:1
Fe:Mn aiming for 2:1
Mn aiming to get it higher than Zn, and Zn higher than Cu
misc traces we are aiming to get around 1ppm
humus content is already decent in many spots, so nitrogen release should be mostly adequate..
we grew a bunch of different veggie and grain seeds last year trying to figure out what works best at the high Mg and pH levels so we will grow lots of what grew best with the hope they will extract as much Mg as possible.. where there is irrigation it is coming out at pH 8.0 so that is not helping either, but we did find a number of plants that will do great in those conditions and can grow these first year before progressing on to more of what we want to grow in subsequent years / on a field by field basis as we slowly bring the whole land into production.. going to have a large market garden component eventually with lots of romas, melons, squash, peppers, cukes, etc high value stuff and a large permaculture food forest component with lots of apples, pears, small fruits, stone fruits, table grapes, etc..

my compost is just an amalgamation of those ratios, using a spreadsheet, then tested on plants and refined.. using peat moss, alfalfa, humalite powder, soft rock phosphate, gypsum, hi cal lime, clay, kelp and traces in appropriate ratios.. I can sub materials as needed, using my spreadsheet to give an overview of the mineral balance..

on a smaller scale I can take a soil test from an outdoor patch, then make a custom compost using the ratios I know that work and only supplying what minerals are needed most (according to the soil test and according to what plants are naturally springing up out of the soil) into the compost.. bring that compost in at planting time and achieve both soil mineral balance and biology, mulch it up well with forest crumble and come back a couple times to have a look see make sure it is tapping into groundwater.. point is I have worked with a few different materials and have a good feel for what is going to work for me, at what ratios.. not so much guesswork any more..