Phylos Galaxy - Landrace discussion

[troutman]

Sure man... funny when Mowgli joined another forum and was addressed a few sensitive questions on Phylos he just dissapeared.

And, by the way, I was the first one who bited the DNA Project bait, being misleaded and even provided with samples in the past.

Maybe Mowgli saw that some people can see thru smoke and see the mirror then ran away to where it's safe.

As for DNA Project bait like you mention, I remember reading about Nevil saying
somebody wanted the DNA from all his strains to help the police or something.

 

[ngakpa]

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1931-0846.2014.12038.x


-High Point: A historical Geography of Cannabis

Good link, thanks

Just to say: I hope that my post wasn't what prompted you to quote George Harrison

As far as I know, Phylos is affiliated with Open Cannabis Project
https://opencannabisproject.org/

In principle, I think it's a great idea

I don't know where this idea that it's a conspiracy comes from

But it seems to me that the people behind Phylos have got ahead of themselves

They need to base their system on a foundation of data obtained from pure 'drug' landrace accessions obtained in historic centres of cannabis cultivation

without that, I can't see how their system can have any real value

that was my point, not to denegrate the value of intensively bred strains

the fundamental point is that real straight-from-the source landraces have a much broader genetic base

also, because it has to be said:

George Harrison was the shittest Beatle, the preachy fucker... Ringo is a ****, but at least he's not pretentious

I see icmag blocks out **** - well, to be fair, George Harrison was a right preachy ****, the old ****

 

[Nexus7]

@ngakpa

You're right phylos does have many limitations but as a grower I'm mostly interested in the provedence of the samples and since as you mention what we have available now comes from so few parental plants it makes it possible to trace lineages on phylos. Most people are curious as to which plant fathered who and phylos allows this.

 

[bigtacofarmer]

The idea is brilliant. But it only makes sense that just as many people that re name plants or are misinformed as to what it is would also send in samples. It would also make sense that the more acurate labeled strains were entered the easier it would be to identify the ones that are not what they say they are. But that also opens the possibility of another level of misinformation as I am sure some of the more surprising and hard to believe relations will be real.

 

[Nexus7]

Image anti-clockwise from top:

European hemp
late 70's American hybrids/central american
Mr Nice Haze/NYC Haze
Colombian Gold
Colombian Red
Thai Stick/Asia Sativa
African Sativas

 

[ngakpa]

@ngakpa
since as you mention what we have available now comes from so few parental plants

I didn't exactly say this, just made the point with Afghan No. 1

But you are right, the modern seed business is heavily based on a handful of cultigens Mel Frank gave away in the early '80s, plus a very few other foundation strains

I've had a better look at the landraces on the Phylos system, last time I was out of it

'Baalbek Valley', 'Udikki Kerala'

people are funny

it's also interesting that collectors such as David Watson have provided a very limited range from their collections ---- largely it seems they shared landraces that have been made publicly available through forums and hobbyists; they certainly held back more than they shared

I dunno, the Galaxy looks pretty wonky to me

Laspur is literally a few kms from the area of Yarkhun where Mriko obtained the Yarkhun seeds (which was in Mastuj), and which I'm pretty sure I'm right in saying are David Watson's Yarkhun accessions... given to him by Mriko in 2006 iirc

I suspect I'm misreading this, but it looks a bit like Yarkhun s clustering with Sengal - or might be further away from Laspur than Senegal is... which is obviously not right (I suspect I'm misreading it though)

 

[ngakpa]

The idea is brilliant. But it only makes sense that just as many people that re name plants or are misinformed as to what it is would also send in samples. It would also make sense that the more acurate labeled strains were entered the easier it would be to identify the ones that are not what they say they are. But that also opens the possibility of another level of misinformation as I am sure some of the more surprising and hard to believe relations will be real.

modern cultigens are mostly hybrids of hybrids of hybrids

there's no consistent connection between names and genetics

if this was done with registered cultivars and authentic landraces I think you'd get a more meaningful picture

 

[ngakpa]

@Nexus7 - I'm assuming that list refers to the image in your previous post

 

[Water-]

Good link, thanks

Just to say: I hope that my post wasn't what prompted you to quote George Harrison

As far as I know, Phylos is affiliated with Open Cannabis Project
https://opencannabisproject.org/

In principle, I think it's a great idea

I don't know where this idea that it's a conspiracy comes from

But it seems to me that the people behind Phylos have got ahead of themselves

They need to base their system on a foundation of data obtained from pure 'drug' landrace accessions obtained in historic centres of cannabis cultivation

without that, I can't see how their system can have any real value

that was my point, not to denegrate the value of intensively bred strains

the fundamental point is that real straight-from-the source landraces have a much broader genetic base

also, because it has to be said:

George Harrison was the shittest Beatle, the preachy fucker... Ringo is a ****, but at least he's not pretentious

I see icmag blocks out **** - well, to be fair, George Harrison was a right preachy ****, the old ****

No, it was not directed at you
I just threw it out there to see whose ego it would land on.

Thank you for sharing your opinion on George Harrison and a bit of your true persona.

Its always good to know who your money is going to.

best of luck in your business. .

 

[ngakpa]

No, it was not directed at you
I just threw it out there to see whose ego it would land on.

Thank you for sharing your opinion on George Harrison and a bit of your true persona.

Its always good to know who your money is going to.

best of luck in your business. .

oh, damn sorry - that really wasn't meant to be a jibe at you mate!

honestly, George Harrison wrote some great tunes and lyrics, but if you read the Beatles bios he was a proper nightmare, never stopped preaching and never listened

that isn't and wasn't meant as a dig at you for quoting his lyrics - bit sad that you took it that way!

I could just see that the point I was trying to make about pure landraces could have read as a brag - in other words, I was trying to redress that by being humble, while also noting that George was unrelentingly, humourlessly pious to the point of blatant and unbearable egotism

plus, I was just having a bit of fun with how icmag blocks out ****

anyway, never **** -ing mind, aye!

 

[oldbootz]

There are not so many places where the worlds landrace fanatics gather. It seems to me that it would be common sense that the guys from phylos would represent themselves in these online places and nullify any conspiracy theories that may pop up. Surely it cant be that they are too butt hurt to counter some 'wild' arguments that they are gathering DNA of everyone's genetics for their own benefit - and not for the benefit of the greater community.

As far as its usefulness with current collected data - that's another issue completely. And this would be able to be fixed later on with better data. If you're pissed off at its current achievements you are simply impatient. On top of that phylos has started to try and become a cash positive business and they focus less and less on the genetic database and more on sell-able services like sex testing.

I would love this project to be what it was intended to be. Time will tell if that can be the case. But they seem to have lost a lot of faith from the community and have not put in the time necessary to convince us otherwise.

In software development if you want to make sure that the software stays open sourced and belongs to the community, you license the software with something like these :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT_License
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License
Phylos could use some legal licensing like this to instill confidence in them from the community.

 

[Elmer Bud]

Maybe Mowgli saw that some people can see thru smoke and see the mirror then ran away to where it's safe.

As for DNA Project bait like you mention, I remember reading about Nevil saying
somebody wanted the DNA from all his strains to help the police or something.

G `day Trout

Let me fill in some more details .
Nevil reckons he was asked to help .
Make a catalogue of his strains so the Australian Federal Police could track cannabis crops .

Now Nevil and Sensi seeds never posted to Australia . So if you wanted Nevil`s seeds you needed to travel to Amsterdam in person .
So why would it be a priority of the Australian government to genetically map Nevil`s strains ?

Easier to track who visited the Netherlands from Australia ??? Then search them on return ...

As far as I know there was no DNA testing back in the mid 80s ??? So how the fck was this genetic mapping going to be done ?

To map the genome would require University studies . But ,,, research of cannabis is blocked by federal law . So where was the research for this mapping going on and more critically where was the money coming from ?

An example of a paranoid mind and imagination ?


Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[troutman]

G `day Trout

Let me fill in some more details .
Nevil reckons he was asked to help .
Make a catalogue of Nevil`s strains so the Australian Federal Police could track cannabis crops .

Now Nevil and Sensi seeds never posted to Australia . So if you wanted Nevil`s seeds you needed to travel to Amsterdam in person .
So why would it be a priority of the Australian government to genetically map Nevil`s strains ?

Easier to track who visited the Netherlands from Australia ??? Then search them on return ...

Now as far as I know there was no DNA testing back in the mid 80s ??? So how the fck was this genetic mapping going to be done ?

An example of a paranoid mind and imagination ?


Thanks for sharin

EB .

Can you please explain where I said anything about Australia.
I don't have the imagination to figure what you're saying.

If you knew Nevil didn't post to Australia. Why did you try to order
his seeds and get upset when you didn't get them back then?

May as well thrown your money in a lake.

 

[Elmer Bud]

Can you please explain where I said anything about Australia.
I don't have the imagination to figure what you're saying.

If you knew Nevil didn't post to Australia. Why did you try to order
his seeds and get upset when you didn't get them back then?

May as well thrown your money in a lake.

G `day Trout

OK you just threw that snippet out there to throw shade without knowing the details ?

Nev said on the Mr Nice forum he was asked to catalog his strains via DNA tests to assist the Australian federal police .

Nevil didn`t post seeds to Australia nor did Sensi seeds . Circa 1985-1990 .

I never tried to buy seeds in that era . I was sifting through pounds of primo looking for seeds .

Visiting Europe to buy seeds seemed OTT . I bought a proven clone . Job done .

The problem I had was in 2010 when I asked him via PM about rimmeo and the seeds he was selling . He vouched for rimmeo and said the seeds were legit .

When the seeds didn`t arrive he denied all responsibility .


Thanks for sharin

EB

 

[Nexus7]

it's also interesting that collectors such as David Watson have provided a very limited range from their collections ---- largely it seems they shared landraces that have been made publicly available through forums and hobbyists; they certainly held back more than they shared

I'm thinking David Watson maybe "sold" his stock to
one of the companies he was working with and now doesn't legally own them so can't submit a private companies samples to a public database. But strange none-the-less.

Also Sam and Mel's samples lack any oral history which makes it harder to interpret.

Yes the list is in regards to the image. In my opinion there are clear Thai Stick/Asian NLD, european sativa hemp, African NLD sativa and Colombian Gold/Santa Cruz haze clusters formed already!

I have a lot of hunches that are awaiting more data. For instance it looks like European hemp was taken to the Americas. A Red North Indian or Nepalese variety or similar was bred into that now Americas hemp and became "Panama Red". This Panama Red would likely have been low quality.

Quality "Colombian Red" sometimes also known as PR was Thai stick/Asian Sativa derived but possibly interbred with a pre-existing South American drug Sativa.

I'll check the samples you mentioned and give you my interpretation but please take it with a grain of salt.

 

[ngakpa]

I have a lot of hunches that are awaiting more data. For instance it looks like European hemp was taken to the Americas. A Red North Indian or Nepalese variety or similar was bred into that now Americas hemp and became "Panama Red". This Panama Red would likely have been low quality.

Quality "Colombian Red" sometimes also known as PR was Thai stick/Asian Sativa derived but possibly interbred with a pre-existing South American drug Sativa.

As you say, I think it's unrealistic to pretend that such conclusions can be drawn with any reliability based on the existing data.

The narratives you're constructing here seem implausible to me. Who would be taking Nepali landraces or feral North Indian landraces to the Americas, why, and when?


About Panama Red:

Panama ganja landraces were already known for standout potency (compared to Mexican equivalents) in the 1940s. As William Burroughs, who was already growing fields of Mexican cannabis, said: 'Never saw anything like the gage in Panama.' That region: Panama, Columbia, Guyana, was already an established centre of cultivation known for potent ganja by the early twentieth century, after prohibition of cultivation in regions such as Jamaica and Trinidad.

So, we already know potent cannabis existed in these regions prior to any introduction of Thai, which would have been by Westerners.

Familiarity with the history of cannabis in the Caribbean makes it clear that the origin of ganja cultigens is tropical India, through British suppy of ganja to the 'indentured labour' system for the sugar plantations. This is well documented. Ganja was shipped from regions such as Malwa, Khandwa, Madras, Bengal etc.

But can you tell me who would be bringing landrace seed from the Himalaya, when, and why? Europeans did obtain hemp fibre from the Himalaya in the nineteenth century, but they got it from Tehri Garhwal. And they were not acquiring seed, just fibre for ship stays etc. When looking for quality hemp (eg to breed Kentucky hemp) they looked to China. Afaik most of the finest registered hemp cultivars are European-Asian hybrids, many involving Chinese genetics.

As for the red-stem trait. Maybe you can tell me why folks in Oregon have such a fixation with this...

Red stems are a generic trait that you can see in numerous populations. It's particularly common in feral Punjabi cannabis. It's a trait I've seen in domesticated Kumaoni landraces. It's common in Afghan landraces too, eg the genuine Mazari cultigen. And you will see it in true Keralan ganja cultigens.

But are you suggesting you think the name Panama Red was connected to a red stem trait? More than likely it was a market-based name for the product, derived from pronounced red pistils on dried ganja or colouration of bracts, not anything connected to red stems.

 

[troutman]

Red stems are a generic trait that you can see in numerous populations.

The 2 Malawi Gold males from the African Seeds company I used for breeding last year had reddish stems
with a faint aroma of cinnamon when rubbed. They are the only 2 plants I ever had that smelled like that.

Luckily, I used them to make my Special Malawi seeds and I'm sure those traits will be in there somewhere.

 

[Water-]

Red Stems...

Portland is known as the city of Roses.

I think people just like the aesthetic value, and having something exotic looking.

.

 

[Nexus7]

@ngakpa

Yes you're quite right the Panama Red was just a wild theory of mine. I'm not really up to date on my knowledge of when and how Cannabis was distributed across the globe. While it may seem like a disadvantage when interpreting the phylos data sometimes it can be an advantage since I'm not influenced by pre-existing theories and just trying to intpret data.

Take OldTimers Haze for instance. According to anecdotal evidence any Haze should be a 4-way Sativa cross. Dubi himself believes it's a 4 way Sativa cross bred toward the Colombian/Thai side. Phylos DNA testing suggests it's not a four way Sativa cross at all. It just Colombian/Thai genes. It's also clustered in a group of samples dating back to California in the late 70's. One of which was labelled Colombian Gold by a reputable source.

So my theory in regard to the OldTimers Haze currently offered by Ace seeds is that it is not really a "Haze" but more than likely authentic 1970's Colombian Gold.

Now obviously without the DNA evidence if I told you Ace's OTH was not actually a "haze" but rather Colombian Gold. You would likely call me crazy. But now with the DNA evidence on phylos it's pretty hard to dispute.

 

[Nexus7]

CG 1980

CG 1980

Phylos data ...