I think it's something to do with it killing all the honey bees.
-
Happy Birthday ICMag! Been 20 years since Gypsy Nirvana created the forum! We are celebrating with a 4/20 Giveaway and by launching a new Patreon tier called "420club". You can read more here.
-
Important notice: ICMag's T.O.U. has been updated. Please review it here. For your convenience, it is also available in the main forum menu, under 'Quick Links"!
Phylloxera information - aka root mites aka root aphids
- Thread starter Scay Beez
- Start date
Norkali
Active member
Yeah, that's not cool. I'm starting to wonder if I really want to go the Merit route...moral dilemma...it's like deciding whether or not to use a nuke lol.
the link between imid and colony collapse disorder/honey bee depopulation syndrome is tenuous at best.
here's our good friend, wikipedia:
here's our good friend, wikipedia:
Yeah, so if cell phone towers are as likely the cause as imid you should probably chuck your iphone into the bay......
Norkali
Active member
Proof we are dealing with Phylloxera? I think so.
Definite Root aphid.
Lovely, fungus gnats managed to make their way in too it seems! The important aspect of this picture though is the smaller larvae down below it, what is that? Fungus gnat larvae or Phylloxera larvae? Hmmm...look back to the first posted picture though...looks an awful lot like the phylloxera larvae. Notice the extremely small size!
Definite Root aphid.
Lovely, fungus gnats managed to make their way in too it seems! The important aspect of this picture though is the smaller larvae down below it, what is that? Fungus gnat larvae or Phylloxera larvae? Hmmm...look back to the first posted picture though...looks an awful lot like the phylloxera larvae. Notice the extremely small size!
BigSwifty
Member
Hey fellas, just wanted to mention a product I saw in the hydro shop that looks like it'd be great for cleaning up in between grows: Orthene TR
It's basically an acephate (orthene) fogger that you can use in your room to decontaminate between grows. As some research shows, acephate is extremely effective at killing root aphids. I think in the one study that's posted somewhere in these threads the mortality rate with acephate was 100%, compared to 96% for botanigard.
Anyway, check it out if you're looking to clean up between grows... doesn't look to expensive either.
It's basically an acephate (orthene) fogger that you can use in your room to decontaminate between grows. As some research shows, acephate is extremely effective at killing root aphids. I think in the one study that's posted somewhere in these threads the mortality rate with acephate was 100%, compared to 96% for botanigard.
Anyway, check it out if you're looking to clean up between grows... doesn't look to expensive either.
sterilizing (or as close as you can get) between grows is probably the most effective preventative measure that a grower can take. i sulfur for about a week (8hrs a day) and bomb the shit out of my rooms. every other grow i bleach down floor, ceiling and walls with a bleach sprayer or a sponge.
a safer long term cleaning option to orthene is phyton 27. check it out!
a safer long term cleaning option to orthene is phyton 27. check it out!
Killing fields
Killing fields
Well today I took a couple 30 inch plants and killed em. They hadn't used any water for a week even with a fan on them. They look much better in pics than person. The rootballs were very sparse considering how long they should have rooted out these #5's Roots were also brownish.
At this time all plants in the garden are healthy and eating and drinking. These 3 were wasting light.
No one make fun of me wearing socks with flip flops.
I stepped in dogshit moments before the photo shoot
and had to change
lol.
Killing fields
Well today I took a couple 30 inch plants and killed em. They hadn't used any water for a week even with a fan on them. They look much better in pics than person. The rootballs were very sparse considering how long they should have rooted out these #5's Roots were also brownish.
At this time all plants in the garden are healthy and eating and drinking. These 3 were wasting light.
No one make fun of me wearing socks with flip flops.
I stepped in dogshit moments before the photo shoot
and had to change
lol.
Bud Spleefman
Member
I am experiencing some of this right now. I dealt with them a coupke weeks ago, and now some of my plants are coming ripe way tooo early, and low and behold, they've hermied out. Motherfucker!!!!Q!
Acephate vs imid
Acephate vs imid
Expert: Acephate is acephate. If a product labels it for veggies it is only 'cuz the company that makes it has bigger balls and cares less about your health. Just like I said with the imid "Fruit and Citrus" product - just because they label it for food doesn't somehow make the active ingredient more safe (in the case of this particular imid product, the main component [imidacloparid] is just WAY more dilute... so you could use 1 tsp Green Light Tree and Shrub or over an ounce of Bayer Fruit and Citrus to get the same amount of the same poison into your plant... your choice).
In the case of acephate: It stays around in plants for months. You only want to use in in EARLY veg, ideally giving them a long veg after. It is an organophosphate, which categorically spells "be careful!" DO NOT SPRAY INDOORS (water with it or DUNK only, wearing chemical gloves and a chemical-rated respirator [with cartridges that are listed for organophosphates!]). If you do not want to go through all this hassle: use imid. You do not need a mask, cheap gloves should be fine, and using it as late as half-way through bloom is probably not an issue. Most people have not seemed to need acephate.
You need two things to combat these creatures (though this has been implied, it has never been stated directly) - a systemic (imid or acephate) AND a control that is acceptable in bloom (Bti, nematodes, insecticidal soap, Botanigard). The systemic will NOT keep the plant safe all the way through bloom and you should NOT keep using it all the way through bloom (the more you use, the more it builds up in the plant and the insects build up immunity - NOT a good idea to have constantly oscillating levels of imid in your plants at all times!!!) So you are going to need to apply something else or try another method in conjunction with your systemic anyhow - why choose acephate over imid?
Acephate vs imid
Expert: Acephate is acephate. If a product labels it for veggies it is only 'cuz the company that makes it has bigger balls and cares less about your health. Just like I said with the imid "Fruit and Citrus" product - just because they label it for food doesn't somehow make the active ingredient more safe (in the case of this particular imid product, the main component [imidacloparid] is just WAY more dilute... so you could use 1 tsp Green Light Tree and Shrub or over an ounce of Bayer Fruit and Citrus to get the same amount of the same poison into your plant... your choice).
In the case of acephate: It stays around in plants for months. You only want to use in in EARLY veg, ideally giving them a long veg after. It is an organophosphate, which categorically spells "be careful!" DO NOT SPRAY INDOORS (water with it or DUNK only, wearing chemical gloves and a chemical-rated respirator [with cartridges that are listed for organophosphates!]). If you do not want to go through all this hassle: use imid. You do not need a mask, cheap gloves should be fine, and using it as late as half-way through bloom is probably not an issue. Most people have not seemed to need acephate.
You need two things to combat these creatures (though this has been implied, it has never been stated directly) - a systemic (imid or acephate) AND a control that is acceptable in bloom (Bti, nematodes, insecticidal soap, Botanigard). The systemic will NOT keep the plant safe all the way through bloom and you should NOT keep using it all the way through bloom (the more you use, the more it builds up in the plant and the insects build up immunity - NOT a good idea to have constantly oscillating levels of imid in your plants at all times!!!) So you are going to need to apply something else or try another method in conjunction with your systemic anyhow - why choose acephate over imid?
Notes on chemicals:
Since this discussion has centered around chemicals, I want to make a quick note on chemical use indoors:
Some growers are inexcusably reckless when they use chemicals, particularly with the stronger, more dangerous type. It is very important to differentiate different types of chemicals and their relative danger (where you can safely take a bath in neem oil and probably will have few effects from a dilute-pyrethrum bath, there are other chemicals that are dangerous in VERY small amounts). In particular it is important to recognize that when you spray a chemical, it disperses it all over the place - not just where you apply it - and the fine particles easily absorb into any exposed skin and especially through the membranes in your lungs, as you breath in thousands of minute particles of the water, briefly suspended in the air.
Spraying (/misting/fogging) can make innocuous substances dangerous and takes harmful chemicals to a new level of danger.
Even some additives you would never think of as dangerous - seaweed extracts such as Nitrozyme, for example - are thought to be potentially carcinogenic. When you spray, even a substance which is not a serious risk for absorption through your skin can potentially be far more harmful as they can far more easily pass into the bloodstream through the mucus membrane in your lungs than by absorption through your skin.
Remember: you are growing INDOORS! Especially if your grow space is inside your house! I have a friend who had such a battle with spider mites that he resorted to spraying with heavy-duty chemicals (Avid, Hexygon); he figured he would wear protective clothing and wear a chemical respirator and he would be fine; WRONG. The sprays accumulated concentrations of nasty chemicals - especially in his grow, but even throughout his house. He became so sensitive to them (by compromising his immune system from exposure) that he had to wear the respirator every time he went in his grow room or he would get sick, even LONG after he sprayed. Eventually he came to realize that just being in his house was making him sick. He stopped doing the grow there and spent as much time away from his place as possible and when he would go back, we would get sick again, just from being inside, not even in the grow room. He moved and shit has spiraled downward for him since. Imagine if a newlywed couple decides to move into his old place. Imagine if they decide to make his old grow room the baby room... I shudder to think.
Note: as much as this sounds like I am talking about myself, this actually is a friend/acquaintance of mine. I won't even spray FLORAMITE inside my space. I spend too much time in there to fuck around. I DO, however, wear a respirator with multi-chemical rated cartridges any time I spray with ANYTHING more than yucca and water.
Also note: you generally should not have to spray gnarly chemicals to deal with root aphids - root dunks and watering with chems should generally be fine, and most people should not have to resort to anything nastier than imidicloparid. Aeroponics systems, however, also break up the water very fine, putting a lot of what ever is in it into the air. Unless your aero unit is very tightly sealec (like the EZ Cloner) I would advise roughly the same caution around the running aero system as I would with spraying - particularly when running harmful chems in the water.
Since this discussion has centered around chemicals, I want to make a quick note on chemical use indoors:
Some growers are inexcusably reckless when they use chemicals, particularly with the stronger, more dangerous type. It is very important to differentiate different types of chemicals and their relative danger (where you can safely take a bath in neem oil and probably will have few effects from a dilute-pyrethrum bath, there are other chemicals that are dangerous in VERY small amounts). In particular it is important to recognize that when you spray a chemical, it disperses it all over the place - not just where you apply it - and the fine particles easily absorb into any exposed skin and especially through the membranes in your lungs, as you breath in thousands of minute particles of the water, briefly suspended in the air.
Spraying (/misting/fogging) can make innocuous substances dangerous and takes harmful chemicals to a new level of danger.
Even some additives you would never think of as dangerous - seaweed extracts such as Nitrozyme, for example - are thought to be potentially carcinogenic. When you spray, even a substance which is not a serious risk for absorption through your skin can potentially be far more harmful as they can far more easily pass into the bloodstream through the mucus membrane in your lungs than by absorption through your skin.
Remember: you are growing INDOORS! Especially if your grow space is inside your house! I have a friend who had such a battle with spider mites that he resorted to spraying with heavy-duty chemicals (Avid, Hexygon); he figured he would wear protective clothing and wear a chemical respirator and he would be fine; WRONG. The sprays accumulated concentrations of nasty chemicals - especially in his grow, but even throughout his house. He became so sensitive to them (by compromising his immune system from exposure) that he had to wear the respirator every time he went in his grow room or he would get sick, even LONG after he sprayed. Eventually he came to realize that just being in his house was making him sick. He stopped doing the grow there and spent as much time away from his place as possible and when he would go back, we would get sick again, just from being inside, not even in the grow room. He moved and shit has spiraled downward for him since. Imagine if a newlywed couple decides to move into his old place. Imagine if they decide to make his old grow room the baby room... I shudder to think.
Note: as much as this sounds like I am talking about myself, this actually is a friend/acquaintance of mine. I won't even spray FLORAMITE inside my space. I spend too much time in there to fuck around. I DO, however, wear a respirator with multi-chemical rated cartridges any time I spray with ANYTHING more than yucca and water.
Also note: you generally should not have to spray gnarly chemicals to deal with root aphids - root dunks and watering with chems should generally be fine, and most people should not have to resort to anything nastier than imidicloparid. Aeroponics systems, however, also break up the water very fine, putting a lot of what ever is in it into the air. Unless your aero unit is very tightly sealec (like the EZ Cloner) I would advise roughly the same caution around the running aero system as I would with spraying - particularly when running harmful chems in the water.
When you say "spraying" you mean literally spraying chemicals with a spray bottle onto the plants?
What about just mixing a few milliliters of Bayer Tree & Shrub into a 3 gallon bucket? Is that as toxic and poisonious for the air of the entire house like the stuff you're talking about? I haven't used any crazy spray chemicals in my grow, just a tiny bit of BT&S in the reservoir.
What about just mixing a few milliliters of Bayer Tree & Shrub into a 3 gallon bucket? Is that as toxic and poisonious for the air of the entire house like the stuff you're talking about? I haven't used any crazy spray chemicals in my grow, just a tiny bit of BT&S in the reservoir.
O
o.sparkles
I have to say that for the record, neem oil is not safe for humans. If you have ever gotten any amount of concentrate on your skin, pay close attention to your body and I promise you will have a VERY painful crap and abdominal cramping about 10-15 hours later. Neem=ouch. Be careful folks.
Just sayin.
Yes, by "spraying" I mean misting/fogging/spraying - any application where the water and chems are broken up into fine particles by being pushed through an aperture under pressure - "spraying". Spraying causes chems to evaporate into the air where they can coat any number of surfaces in your house. Be mindful of what you spray (generally root aphids do not require much spraying, but it was worth saying in general, since many people have leaf pests too)
Bayer T&S is fine - imid is not that gnarly of a chemical. Watering or soaking/dunking with chems in general is FAR less dangerous than spraying (I would water with a chem that was 50X more toxic than any I would ever spray/mist/fog indoors).
Bayer T&S is fine - imid is not that gnarly of a chemical. Watering or soaking/dunking with chems in general is FAR less dangerous than spraying (I would water with a chem that was 50X more toxic than any I would ever spray/mist/fog indoors).
Respirators: There are many respirator choices, but the important part is selecting a cartridge (filter set) that is appropriate for the sorts of chemicals you are using. I use a 3M full-face respirator (so I don't get spray in my eyes, just in case) and use Multi gas-vapor cartridges (just search "3M 60926" on Ebay - that is teh 3M part #). You can find a pair of them for $10. I have not done research to see what chemicals it protects against, but in general I cannot smell neem, pyrethrum or any of the accompanying solvents when I spray.
please......
http://www.amazon.com/Neem-475-mg-100-Capsule/dp/B00020HYD4/ref=pd_sbs_hpc_1
last thing growers need is misinformation
its been ingested by humans for 4000+ years..... and topical contact of any concentrate of anything might lead to anything. i dunno wtf getting concentrated neem on your skin has to do with the safety of it.
Why don't you try getting some concentrated Hydrochloric acid, or Sulfuric acid, or perhaps the 75% concentration of IMID on your skin and let us know what side effects that develops.
