passive plant killer

[huntingbb]

just wanted to share this informative link

http://www.irrigationtutorials.com/

I was searching for pump info and came across this: http://www.irrigationtutorials.com/pump.htm

lots of stuff to read if you want to learn about how water behaves

Awesome, things i want to remember:

FT.HD. = HP x 2178 / GPM
GPM = HP x 2178 / FT.HD.
HP = GPM x FT.HD. / 2178
HP is brake horsepower
GPM is gallons per minute of flow
FT.HD. is pressure in feet of head (PSI x 2.31 = FT.HD.)

PSI x 2.31 = feet head
Feet head x 0.433 = PSI

Minimum Pressures for Irrigation Systems

Drip Irrigation = 70 feet head (30 PSI) Spray Type Sprinkler Heads = 93 feet head (40 PSI) Rotor Type Sprinkler Heads = 104 feet head (45 PSI)

Technical note: In order to simplify the pump formulas I have factored a pump efficiency of 55% into the value of the formula constant (2178). This is pretty standard procedure, and is a relatively conservative value. Although a new pump will almost always perform better, remember that the performance will drop with time as the pump begins to wear out.

 

[SCROG McDuck]

Happy New Year, D9, everyone.

Thank you all.

 

[DevilWeed]

Same to you Scrog! And everyone else!

 

[huntingbb]

i'm rereading the thread again, got 6 girls that are perfect candidates for this, will do them after another 2 months of veg.

so... the wick potential of coco is like 6.5", so is that from the top of the waterline? the bit that drops down below the bucket into the rez container, how much should be submerged? is there any point in having a deeper rez than the bit that drops into it? (by more than say an inch.)

How large should the air gap be from top of waterline to bottom of bucket?

Is this a part of the 6" that the wick draws up?

Im thinking of going the rubbermaid base route - any advice would be welcome, thanks.

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

is that from the top of the waterline?

Yes.

how much should be submerged?

Doesn't matter.

is there any point in having a deeper rez than the bit that drops into it?

Solution stability is increased with volume. It offers a buffer if your res runs dry or something silly happens.

How large should the air gap be from top of waterline to bottom of bucket?

Theoretically, you can adjust the air gap to change your moisture profile. The goal is to move the Perched Water Table out of the media bucket. The PWT of coco is somewhere around 1.5", depending on the blend/size of fibers. Three inches seems to be a brainless answer that hasn't caused problems. And that's the space that my float valve came up with on it's own... and is close to D9 and OO's grows.

Is this a part of the 6" that the wick draws up?

Yes... Above the PWT... But the solution drawn into the media isn't binary... it's progressive. So there will be progressively decreasing moisture profile as you move away from your reservoir... and it will continue to expand beyond the ball-park of 6.5"... This is desirable in terms of gas/media content, and creates favorable conditions for all root structures throughout the media.

Im thinking of going the rubbermaid base route - any advice would be welcome, thanks.

It's babyshit. Just do it like he profiled in his simpler version. The first page of my sig'd grow has links directly back to that part of this thread...

DON'T FORGET TO PULSE IN SMALL DOSES WITH REGULARITY.

 

[cactusjack]

Hey Delta!

You continue to astound and educate! Its been several months since I dropped by the forums and I've been scanning many, many pages trying to catch up. A hearty congrats to all involved. This is truly a monumental (and entertaining) thread that bears some serious re-reading someday soon.

Glad to see you are getting itchy to pick apart the light demon. This is an area that is overdue for some serious research and a fresh approach. As usual, you have tracked down some tantalizing references.

To further confuse your research, let met point you toward the "chopper light". No, not that bright thing on the front of a Harley, but a light "chopped" so that it produces alternating light and dark periods at a relatively high frequency. Indications are that by using this approach it might be possible to reduce power requirements by 30-50% while maintaining normal growth rates. Heat generated is proportionally diminished as well. I'm rusty on this stuff, but as I understand it, this is possible since photosynthesis is not continuous. Plants appear to absorb energy in "packets" and are unable to utilize further energy input until the preceding packet has worked its way through a ladder of photosynthesis chemical reactions. This takes place over a period of milliseconds, and during that period, any light hitting the plant is not effectively utilized and therefore wasted. Fluorescent and LED lights can be electronically chopped to take advantage of this effect. HPS lights using electronic ballasts have also been tested in pulse mode.

There is a small company in Germany (Chopper Light GmbH) doing some research in this field that has had some success. Their website has degenerated over the last few years but it is still a good starting place. Check their download page. Also, dig what they are saying about "plant controlled lights". Fascinating concept, though a bit more complicated than watching float-valve drips!

Here is their website: http://www.chopperlight.de/

I think I have a few other references that no longer appear on their download list. Will see if I can dig them out.

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

cactusjack's post rolled this thread to one hundred pages on my browser.

Seems like a good time to start a re-read back at the beginning... or at least around page sixty...

This thread has literally changed my life. At least a little.

Happy 100, PPK.

 

[delta9nxs]

great thread tons of great information. thanks !

has anyone seen the earthtainer applied to the ppk method? i bet this planter would really put out some goodies using the coco mix! its too big for my space though. check it out

http://earthtainer.tomatofest.com/

hey, medicaluser2! welcome! the earthtainer was one of the original designs i looked at when i started this project. it is designed for outdoors. without going into detail i don't believe it will work as well indoors.

you'll notice they operate it in two modes. one is the "top it daily mode" and the other is the "level controlled by float valve" method. my containers can be operated in either way also.

you will grow a better looking plant using the float valve.

later, d9

 

[delta9nxs]

i'm rereading the thread again, got 6 girls that are perfect candidates for this, will do them after another 2 months of veg.

so... the wick potential of coco is like 6.5", so is that from the top of the waterline? the bit that drops down below the bucket into the rez container, how much should be submerged? is there any point in having a deeper rez than the bit that drops into it? (by more than say an inch.)

How large should the air gap be from top of waterline to bottom of bucket?

Is this a part of the 6" that the wick draws up?

Im thinking of going the rubbermaid base route - any advice would be welcome, thanks.

hi, sorry i'm late answering but it looks like IF has answered your questions quite well. the only thing i would add is that if you are growing multiple plants you might want to consider using buckets like my latest version. they work just as well and don't take up much floor space.

 

[DevilWeed]

omg! i hope you have corrected the problem in time. we certainly don't want you experiencing the dreaded "too much giant, heavy bud on one side of the plant so it falls over onto the floor and you have to smoke that nasty, dirty, floor bud" syndrome...

While getting ready to build my first PPK tonight I started going back through the thread. The above has happened three times in the last week. Minor damage...everyone is tied to the wall now.

Sad news...seeds galore. Dam unstable genetics on a recent new addition = late flower nanners = maximum suckitude! Next 2 or three harvests in the perpetual will be seedy as hell. Lots of hash oil in my future me thinks. Clones and veg plants of offending he-bitches burned in a 55 gallon drum with little diesel...really.

But back to my first sentence......PPK time! Will build one or two or ten over the weekend and start getting ready for the switch. Anything going into flower within the next 2 or 3 weeks will continue as is. Others will be up-potted to the 5gal PPK's. I want to allow enough time for root development on anything going into PPK's. From then on it will be 1 new PPK every week or two, not sure yet.

 

[huntingbb]

hi, sorry i'm late answering but it looks like IF has answered your questions quite well. the only thing i would add is that if you are growing multiple plants you might want to consider using buckets like my latest version. they work just as well and don't take up much floor space.

thx - much appreciated, to both you and IF. I'm actually considering subverting a few of my 5gal normal pots to ppk before flowering just to see what happens, 2-4 only

While getting ready to build my first PPK tonight I started going back through the thread. The above has happened three times in the last week. Minor damage...everyone is tied to the wall now.

Sad news...seeds galore. Dam unstable genetics on a recent new addition = late flower nanners = maximum suckitude! Next 2 or three harvests in the perpetual will be seedy as hell. Lots of hash oil in my future me thinks. Clones and veg plants of offending he-bitches burned in a 55 gallon drum with little diesel...really.

But back to my first sentence......PPK time! Will build one or two or ten over the weekend and start getting ready for the switch. Anything going into flower within the next 2 or 3 weeks will continue as is. Others will be up-potted to the 5gal PPK's. I want to allow enough time for root development on anything going into PPK's. From then on it will be 1 new PPK every week or two, not sure yet.

Quality problems then, eh!

 

[DevilWeed]

Quality problems then, eh!

Grrrr...

Now I'm strain shy... I have 4 of what I hope are primo strains to pop, looking for the perfect tree girl:
RP SourKush aka Headband
DNA LA Conf
Rez DSDv2
BOG SSK

I've had such great luck, then I try a couple new strains and BAM, seed chaos. Dam it. Here's to hoping for good luck with the new stuff...

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

Anything going into flower within the next 2 or 3 weeks will continue as is. Others will be up-potted to the 5gal PPK's. I want to allow enough time for root development on anything going into PPK's. From then on it will be 1 new PPK every week or two, not sure yet.

I've read that roots continue to develop throughout stretch... so you might be able to push PPKs sooner if you are so inclined...

Seeds, when you aren't planning for them, definitely suck. Especially in perpetual.

But at least with perpetual, your problem is already moving towards a solution... Nanners gone, clean flowers growing. As you know: time flies. You'll be back into a sensi harvest in no time.

 

[DevilWeed]

Thought about it some more. Even if roots don't fill the PPK bucket, it will still work perfectly fine for keeping the girls happy. I would rather switch all of veg over now so I can keep things simple. Working on stuff now...

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

DW... Your grow is so sick already... I guess I could motivate and reread your posts in this thread, and in your own... but what is motivating you to change a working system?

Don't get me wrong; my observations suggest this is the most reliable, stable, hands off system in indoor gardening... but why mess with a good thing?

EDIT: Followed my own advice, and see that your transiting to perpetual vert trees. If that is the goal, PPKs are the place to be...

 

[jjfoo]

Thought about it some more. Even if roots don't fill the PPK bucket, it will still work perfectly fine for keeping the girls happy. I would rather switch all of veg over now so I can keep things simple. Working on stuff now...

yea, my buddy uses 5 gallon buckets for small plants outside so he doesn't have to water as often

lots of people say not to use too large of a pot because it is 'hard to water'. If you are using coco and a wick, I don't think you will have any problems. The wicks go along way in soil, too.

Ever since reading Al Tapla's rational for using wicks almost all my containers have wicks.

I have plants that I have had for 5 year and they have flowered for the first time and are growing strong and healthy green

 

[delta9nxs]

hi, people! first i'd like to apologize for not being more attentive with the thread. the last three weeks i've been having some painful digestive tract problems that have kept me off the computer.

so, i think i'll just ramble on for a while about nothing in particular.

cactusjack, do you realize we have been talking to each other for over four years on one forum or another. thanks for the compliments. the link you provided is fascinating. i believe that what i'm getting into with the daily light integral (DLI) technology is going to show us some alternatives to standard lighting schedules that could either allow you to expand light application to each plant without going over your existing energy bill average or just reduce the bill.

it could also allow you to grow and shape plants in ways that are more beneficial to yield without raising costs.

precision control of light using instrumentation has always been difficult and expensive for greenhouse growers because they don't have a stable photon flow. the light from the sun is being altered in complex patterns by air visibility, clouds, glazing, hanging equipment or other plants. supplemental lighting is used as sparingly as possible during obvious low light conditions. you can equip a greenhouse with remote sensors that, hooked up to your computer and some software, will turn lights on and off in direct response to varying ambient light. very expensive.

yet, with all the varying light they still manage to grow acceptable plants because the plant accumulates light on a diurnal basis, resetting with each new day. they are mole counters. this is another strong argument for at least some dark period during veg. unless we can manipulate the reset response by fooling the plant with continuous light. this would only be possible in veg as we have no options but to curtail light in flower.

i have a set of the light scouts now and a quantum meter on the way. i intend to produce a set of static readings at different distances. these readings should demonstrate the moles/day possibilities at varying distances as well as differences between naked and cool tubed bulbs. and since my lights are incredibly dirty now in the flower room the differences between clean and dirty fixtures as well. of course i will only be able to do this with 1k hortilux hps as that is all i run.

it would be very helpful if we could, over time, develop a data set of what different bulbs will produce. include all light types.

quantum meters measure par radiation. photosynthetically active radiation (PAR). foot candle meters measure the human eye visible spectrum. i have found an old chart that gives f.c. readings at different distances from different bulbs. there is a formula for converting f.c.'s to umols. it will not be as accurate as a quantum meter because of fundamental differences but should be close enough to work with.

indoors we use static emitters. therefore it is possible to take precision measurements at any distance from the plant and calculate the number of hours needed with a particular light to reach the DLI goals you have set.

the DLI in the most sunlit place on earth, somewhere in the saharan africa, if i remember correctly, reaches 60 moles/day. even the most sunny areas of north america and europe only get 50 moles/day at best on nice cloudless days.

there are a couple of large tomato greenhouses in southern arizona that have reported 48 moles/day inside the greenhouse but it is rare for most to get over 30 moles/day with 20+ the goal. now remember pics you have seen of those giant swiss greenhouses with hundreds of great big, heavy plants that look like they will produce 3-5 lbs each. you know those greenhouses are not getting more than 30 moles/day.

dr. elsohly's paper showing that 1500 umols (which is an instantaneous measurement of flow, not cumulative), the 77-86f temp range and 750ppm co2 produced the highest rate of photosynthesis in cannabis also dropped another interesting tidbit of info. his lighting produced 27 moles/day.

so, i may be wrong but i think we need to deliver between 24-30 moles/day to grow those big buds.

cactus, your comment on photon packet stacking quite neatly explains why these principles work. photosynthesis can only occur at a maximum rate determined by each plant species. dr. elsohly's research clearly shows us the max rate for our plant. you can bombard a plant with photons all you like but you cannot speed up the process of producing photosynthate past the plant's max ability.

btw, his entire study was done at the behest of the d e a and the nih for the large pharmaceutical companies interested in learning how to grow high quality medical grade cannabis in controlled conditions so that they could control genetics. i guess some genius figured out that you get cross pollination outdoors. duh.

what pisses me off about this is that this research has been kept secret for several years. this was funded by the taxpayers. it belongs to them. dr. elsohly, who, btw, we should be calling dr. assholely instead for several reasons, has enjoyed a position of monopoly in the field of publicly funded cannabis research as no one else could get the d e a controlled funding. well, the good doctor has now opened a consulting service off campus, pay to play of course. he also, and i find this hilarious, has apparently patented a rectal suppository and is trying to market it in the medical world as the best way to ingest thc. this could seriously change the way we party. i think this may have been the only patentable delivery method he could come up with. everything else has been going on for thousands of years.

so it looks to me like he has used his taxpayer funded job to make himself wealthy at the same time everyone else is denied even the permission much less the funding to conduct the same research. not to mention the total hypocrisy of telling the public how bad and evil cannabis is while at the same time they are funding research to grow the most potent varieties they can for profit.

anyway, i have yet to try dr. assholely's method. i wonder if there is an instruction video on youtube.

later, d9

 

[delta9nxs]

Recently OO mentioned that he had experienced a slight upswing in tds in the medium. Then DW mentioned humidity issues. I got curious and checked the flowering plants for the first time in several weeks and guess what. Mine were all over ec 2. none over ec 2.3. this is after months of running ec 1.5 without this occurring.

So, what happened? I checked the dates of the posts from OO and DW and thought about my own time frame and came to the conclusion that low humidity is the culprit.

When I discovered my reservoirs were running a little high I started checking plants for any displays and while the plants looked good the medium tops were all dry appearing. Your coco should never look uniformly dry across the surface. That simply means that the plant is not getting enough top water. So I corrected the volume of the pulse delivery just a little bit by twisting a little knob on the cyclestat. I also raised my reservoir level by decreasing the air gap to 2.5” from 3.5”with a few twist of the little wingnut on the float valve and cut nutrient strength to ec 1.2 the next time I fed. Whew! All this activity wore me out.

I looked at weather history and most of north america experienced a radical humidity drop around dec 1. I know my own dropped from 58-60% range to the 36-40% range. Another thing I will have total control over when I move.

now, almost two weeks after the corrections were made i'm getting readings under ec 2 and steering down. I did not do any changeouts.

Maintaining the ability to adjust is very important.

d9

 

[oldone]

Hi D9,

Here's hoping you and your family are well and enjoyed the holidays.

Re: your humidity issues; I found exactly the same thing. Gradually rising EC levels and low humidity. I suspect though that mine drops quicker than yours because of our cold weather. I'm just about to start starving Medusa to induce final ripening.

I found your post on light levels fascinating as usual.

Thanks bro,
OO

 

[jjfoo]

oldone,

How do you go about inducing the plant to finish? When I first got into growing I heard you are supposed to just give water at the end. Then I learned that not everyone does this and many of the people that do are doing it because they basically over fertilized.

Later, I read a study about fig production that concluded that depriving N can make the figs ripen before the frost can damage them. This is making me rethink this.

Do you cut back on just the N or just lower the EC? I am about three weeks from harvesting some PPK's and added like 4 scoops of Peter's and two of cal nit for the last batch of nutes. I'm back to giving them 1.5 and my runoff is about 2.3. I had my nutes going in up to like 1.9 because my EC was getting under 1.3 in the runoff.

I'd like to get some non N calcium like calcium chloride and try just cutting N.