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passive plant killer

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
Hey, cactus! Thanks for your input.

Welcome again to the wonderful world of growing, darthfader!

Cactus, the media wicks are working fine.

Ppk #1 is the only one that has been almost solely bottom watered. On #2 I noticed a little bit heavier growth with an occasional top watering . This top watering has been repeated on all since then.

Originally I would put large amounts through the medium. Actually trying to top the res through the medium.

Then I began putting less and less volume through the medium. Finishing by topping the res directly. Now i'm using just enough to moisten the medium from the top, and all the rest directly into the res.

It is obvious this produces a heavier plant, but not by a great deal over bottom watering alone.

The first 4 ppk's are all turface and were compared to each other.

It has yet to be demonstrated whether other media combinations will behave the same.

With coco's tremendous capillary potential you may be able to offset the difference in growth represented by these watering treatments by increasing the ratio of coco. My highest % coco plant is still only 30%.

At first I was at a loss to explain why this is a phenomena at all. After all, the plants were getting almost all their water and nutrients from below.

“In fact, on my last couple turface grows, I watered slowly till I first saw runoff, then I plugged my runoff line (at the very bottom of the bucket – no res volume). I’d allow a couple hours for the turface to evenly absorb the water and then unplug the line. No further runoff occurred, so I was operating with essentially zero runoff.”

recognize your statement? It has intrigued me since I read it.

I think this excerpt explains both:


“Water movement in glass bead porous media 1. Experiments of capillary rise and hysteresis
Department of Land, Air, and Water Resources, University of California, Davis
J. W. Biggar
D. R. Nielsen
Glass beads serving as a model for ideal soil are enclosed in a rectangular glass chamber model. A TV camera associated with a microscope was used to record the processes of capillary rise and drainage. It is clearly shown during capillary rise that the fluid exhibits a “jump” behavior at the neck of the pores in an initially dry profile or at the bottom of the water film in an initially wet profile. Under an initially dry condition, the jump initiates at the particle with smallest diameter. The jump process continues to higher elevations until at equilibrium the surface tensile force is balanced by the hydrostatic force. The wetting front at that time is readily observed as flat and saturated. Under an initially wet condition, capillary rise occurs as a water film thickening process associated with the jump process. Trapped air behind the wetting front renders the wetting front irregular and unsaturated. The capillary rise into an initially wet porous medium can be higher than that into an initially dry profile. During the drying process, large surface areas associated with the gas-liquid interface develop, allowing the porous medium to retain more water than during the wetting process at the same pressure. That mechanism explains better the hysteresis phenomenon in porous media in contrast to other mechanisms that now prevail.”
 

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
i think this means that the point of equilibrium between the "gravitational flow potential" or downward movement and "capillary rise", or upward movement, is raised in the pot with a continuously moist medium.

this is opposed to a pot where the top of the pot is allowed to over dry.

"plants grow best when their roots are sitting in a warm, nutrient rich fog."

pretty sure the above is a rough lucas quote. forgive any mistakes.

as far as a passive plant killer is concerned, keeping the top of your medium moist might just provide more root surface area exposed to the "nutrient rich fog." this could explain the difference in growth of 2 identical plants in identical media being fed identical nutes under identical lights.

and, in the case of cactusjack's experience, this research paper explains the hysteresis, or slowness, of wetting out the medium to the proper air/water ratio.
 
Delta9 – Thank for the hint suggesting boosting coco a bit if I don’t top-feed to “add moistness”. It makes sense. I have no inherent problem with top-feeding when I’m around, I just don’t want it to cause a problem if I have to stop for a week or two when I’m away. I’m OK with suffering a bit of yield loss for the sake of simplicity since I only grow for the wife and myself these days. My first priority is a healthy plant, second is simplicity, and third is yield.

Nice find regarding the U.C. Davis capillary rise quote. A nice bit of basic observational research that adds clarity to an otherwise hidden process and suggests why a slight moistening from the top is valuable.
 

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
i skipped a top wetting on the oldest 12 ppk's to give them extra dry time. four days with no water applied to the tops.

i just went out and scraped away a layer of the medium on all 12 to look at the roots.

ppk #1, all turface, with no top watering, was as usual the driest and had very fine almost hair like air roots.

as i got more coco in the mix, the medium became more moist to the touch and the roots were bigger and whiter.

the 2 plants with 30% coco, one turface and one perlite, had fat, white roots right up to the surface. easily the best air roots. both plants are large. the 70/30 turface coco with 1 quart of worm castings has absolutely the best air roots.

for me to shoot a little water on the tops is no big deal as i'm in there all the time dragging a wand and hose around anyway.

but in view of the fact that one of my goals here is to create a nearly auto watered completely passive hydro device i think more mix experiments are in order.

not everyone lives on the same schedule and it would be useful for some to be able have more time away.

ppk #1 just entered week 7 of 12/12 and is budding up nicely. 3 full weeks to cutting.

no top watering since week 2.

no peroxide used after veg, probably wasn't needed at all. have since totally discontinued it's use on all plants.

no ph adjusters.

no res change outs from day one.

no aeration.

no circulation, no pumps.

no precipitation in res.

no deficiencies.

no salt build up.

there is a self regulating feature to these things. even though i am technically managing 13 and soon to be 16 different reservoirs, after watering they will all be remarkably close to each other in terms of tds and ph.

these things tell you when to water and how much. every one of them will have a slightly different res level at watering time. if you just top it, it will return to your tds goal or near abouts.
 
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krly

Member
Delta, firstly THANK YOU. You introduced me to Turface about a year ago in the Hempy thread...really great stuff !!
I've been using it 50/50 with perlite in 9" "treepots" that are just sitting in a tub with 1"-3" of standing nute solution (water from top initially till roots are long enough). SIMPLE as can be and IT WORKS !!
The only problem/question I have is : how do you transplant and not "lose the root ball" ? For example, if I have a 5" clone in a yogurt cup and I want to transplant it into a larger container....how do you do it without all the soil (turface/perlite) falling away and leaving you with a bare-root clone ?And again, thanks for the Turface tip.
krly
 

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
hey krly, thank you for the kind words!

by coincidence, i'm going to be transplanting a clone later today.

i'll try to put up some pics.
 

Darth Fader

Member
Thx for the replies Delta9 & CactusJack!

I decided to pick up my clones over this long wknd rather than to wait until everything was "ready" to start my 1st grow. This is exciting, but I have a few Q's - mostly PH & feeding. Not to be a threadjacker I started another thread here. Would you mind having a look?
 

*mistress*

Member
Veteran
:wave: delta9nxs...

how many drainage holes drilled into 5 gal bucket?

1? 2? 4? 8?

2" from bottom? or 1"?

found multiple drainage holes... on bottom & sides +:yes:!
especially w/ 50+-100% coco.

enjoy your garden!
 

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
hi, mistress!

hi, mistress!

i still have the one 1 1/2" drain/sump pipe in the bottom. it is flush with the bottom of the top container. no cloth wicks anymore. i have lengthened the sump to where it extends down to 1" from the bottom of the res. i'll modify all of them as they become empty again.

the plant pictured above in 100% coco is doing fine and has grown well during the week despite this frigging cold snap we're having here in the mid south with it's accompanying low rh.

i couldn't stand it anymore with the coco. i wanted to see what it would do alone.

after filling the ppk with coco i watered it in with the standard 750 ppm flora nova bloom, 100 ppm calcium nitrate, and 50ppm magnesium sulfate. it actually came out to about 930 ppm at .5. i used approx. 4.5 gals to fill the res through the coco as a flush and pretreatment for cec. apparently this atami b'cuzz stuff is already pretreated some as my ppm after initial watering was 1535 ppm at .5. so something in the coco made up the difference.

so, i dumped that res and refilled the res directly with the above solution, which read 928 ppm.

i then let it sit for four days with one of those cheap soil testers you made me buy sitting in it. it read wet initially, then went to the o in "moist" and stayed there. never dropped below that.

some things became apparent to this new coco user during this process.

first, i was surprised that the solution flowed right through the device just as fast as perlite or turface. runs right through and out the bottom. i checked for standing water again by pushing a dry wooden dowel down the sidewall to the bottom, held it 15 sec. and pulled it out. it shows no standing water in the bottom and therefore no perched water table. so the coco is draining well alone.

second, it became apparent that coco, just like everything else, needs some top watering for best performance. not a complete 4 times a day flow to waste as you might have to do with top watering alone, but rather a 15-20 sec burst once a day delivering about a pint. the rest of the plants needs are being met by sub-irrigation. i found a paper describing growing tomatoes and peppers in coco using mostly sub-irrigation with a little top water once a day just to keep the top moist. this australian greenhouse grower has beautiful plants.

here's the photos again of the hole in my buckets.
 
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*mistress*

Member
Veteran
i still have the one 1 1/2" drain/sump pipe in the bottom. it is flush with the bottom of the top container. no cloth wicks anymore. i have lengthened the sump to where it extends down to 1" from the bottom of the res. i'll modify all of them as they become empty again.
:yes:
i couldn't stand it anymore with the coco. i wanted to see what it would do alone.
some plants like 100% coco, some like 100% perlite... some do well in any media.
some gardeners can bring out best in any medium:artist:
after filling the ppk with coco i watered it in with the standard 750 ppm flora nova bloom, 100 ppm calcium nitrate, and 50ppm magnesium sulfate. it actually came out to about 930 ppm at .5. i used approx. 4.5 gals to fill the res through the coco as a flush and pretreatment for cec. apparently this atami b'cuzz stuff is already pretreated some as my ppm after initial watering was 1535 ppm at .5. so something in the coco made up the difference.
:yes: pre-treatment always+!

so, i dumped that res and refilled the res directly with the above solution, which read 928 ppm.

i then let it sit for four days with one of those cheap soil testers you made me buy sitting in it. it read wet initially, then went to the o in "moist" and stayed there. never dropped below that.
:biggrin:
some things became apparent to this new coco user during this process.

first, i was surprised that the solution flowed right through the device just as fast as perlite or turface. runs right through and out the bottom. i checked for standing water again by pushing a dry wooden dowel down the sidewall to the bottom, held it 15 sec. and pulled it out. it shows no standing water in the bottom and therefore no perched water table. so the coco is draining well alone.
...there does, sometimes, seem to be a pocket of water/moisture that can accumulate @ base of the root....in middle of container... maybe why the 60/40 coco/hydroton, or 50/50 coco/perlite gardeners added those amends.

in 100% coco, this phenom viewd if transplant up from smaller containers... to 5 gals... not really viewable if dont transplant up.
maybe can get this reading if push soil moisture meter ~2-3" away from stem, closer to root mass. the center of the container may have soggy pocket, not detectable really from top or bottom... except for moisture closest to stem, beneath layer of top-dressed perlite...

also, found that if transplant up from, say, 1/2-2 gal to 5 gal, of 100% coco, to surrounding plant in new home w/ 50/50 coco/perlite, or 100% perlite/hydroton/bark, etc, etc, that the coco retains the water & the amends let much aeration occur.

if nothing else, top-dressed 2" perlite/turface... that is where the large, octopus-like roots grow... top 1/5 of plant really likes aerated media to exchange gases...

the roots may grow out from stem into thin air & down into media... but, part of roots remain exposed to air... no need to cover, they like open exposure in non-wet media... growing into/for air;) as you mentioned, the light top watering w/ bottom staying wet +++!
only tried generic bricks in imagination... maybe better quality w/ brands.
second, it became apparent that coco, just like everything else, needs some top watering for best performance. not a complete 4 times a day flow to waste as you might have to do with top watering alone, but rather a 15-20 sec burst once a day delivering about a pint. the rest of the plants needs are being met by sub-irrigation. i found a paper describing growing tomatoes and peppers in coco using mostly sub-irrigation with a little top water once a day just to keep the top moist. this australian greenhouse grower has beautiful plants.
that is the :artist:;)
here's the photos again of the hole in my buckets.
thx for re-posting those:)

enjoy your garden!:ying:
 

Darth Fader

Member
Guys, when using a wick system, how often are you adding nutes to the resevoir?
For example, with a pot-in-pot system like Mistress uses, you've got a 4gal inside a 5-gal, so lets say that leaves a 1-gal res. When plants are small they aren't drinking much, so do you add nutes on day 1 and keep adding everyday regardless of res level or do you wait until the res gets down (say halfway) and then add back a 1/2 gal of nute/water mix?

Do you care about ph levels in the soiless medium, or only the ph of the mixed nute/h20 solution (prior to adding)?
 

Darth Fader

Member
Btw, I'm using 1" strips cut from a microfiber towel (for drying/polishing) cars as my wick. After 2 days, the surface of the coco mix is visibly damp and damp to the touch. The microfiber wicks like nobodies business!
 

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
mistress, hi, yeah, i've read about the "soggy mass" that some report in coco, but so far, 9 days, the plant is growing fine. color is good and showing no evidence of over watering. i really think this device is handling drainage well. i realize coco is different but so far it's behaving like all the other media experiments. all plants are looking good and growing well.

darth,

i add nutes full strength every watering unless my tds is showing a little high, then i'll just cut it back a little.

highonmt, thank you!
 

bostrom155

Active member
Hey Delta, everything is looking great as usual. Do you think this is a system your going to hang onto for awhile? Im trying to simplify my system like yours with just enough cuts clones veg, ect and thats it. Im only doing 18- 5G under 2000(and that might be too many with the size these hempy ones are getting), and 9 2.5G under the 600 I just hate killing good clones.
I have a block of coco coming tomorrow. Im thinking 20/80 C/P. Sound good? Maybe 30 Need to cut down on the perlite buying anyway. Im close to having enough though, few more bags.
 

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
great!

great!

now we are talking back and forth over two threads. nobody reading this is going to know what the **** is going on.

i really like this thing i'm growing in. it is working flawlessly. with all choices of medium.

i've decided to keep using them. now that they are all made i'm going to link them to a control bucket that auto tops all the res's simultaneously. it will reduce my work and even out any differences in ph or tds.

i'm also toying with the idea of setting up sprayers to shoot the top of the medium. once or twice a day for a few seconds. not really proper watering volume but just enough to keep it moist. of course then it can't be called a "passive plant killer". maybe it will be a "slightly aggressive plant killer". i love pure passive hydroculture but yield is a priority with me. i've got pumps now left over from other apps.

this is a very versatile device. it can be used the same way you would use a hempy. top water till overflow. the advantage being no perched water table and a much greater reservoir volume. therefore more stability.

it could be run on purely passive principles, as the first ppk plant was strictly raised on. i'll be whacking it next week. nice looking plant, i'll put up some pics. and i'll get some shots of the root mass.

if you were only running one or two you could put an air pump powered spitter on them to wet the tops. this would be from their own res.

you could run it on very active hydro principles by top watering multiple times during lights on and recirculating. again , no perched water table.

also, some folks might be interested in a pvc pipe system acting as the res's using smaller containers but higher plant numbers. no pwt.

if i can get enough interest i can do a tutorial on construction with part #'s and specific tool list. i imagine people have been waiting to see if a plant would actually grow in one of these.

i'm expanding to 6000 watts. i'm moving the veg section out into another room and ripping out the light barrier between the two areas i'm using now. 5000 watts in flower. same plant numbers but hopefully even larger plants/yield.

well, i'm going over to the other thread to see what you've written there in my absence.

oh yeah, my 70/30 perlite/coco plant is turning into a monster. it's in week 5.
 

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
i don't know how i did that!

here are some pics. these plants are one week apart in growth stage. i'm fighting low rh now and the girls are bitching about it. leaf curl and leaf twist

the first is ppk#1, it is one week from cutting, all turface, all sub-irrigated.

the rest are general shots of all 9 in flower. a lot of different media experiments.
 
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