passive plant killer

[ImaginaryFriend]

Found the camera....

Found the camera....

D9,

Not ready to set up a thread just yet, but here's the set up:

Thanks so much for all the work you've done on this...

 

[delta9nxs]

snowgro, thanks for the info, i'm trying to get an idea of what the capillary rise is for various substances in this device. since you are not auto top watering maybe some kind of mulch would get the moisture right to the top. i've read somewhere about a hydro vegetable farmer using perlite that just puts a plastic disc on top, leaving an air gap around the plant and sides.

imaginaryfriend, you are about to grow some weed! it all looks functional. those cyclestatII's are the shit! i'm not really checking for the pulse delivery volume anymore. i just feel the top and twist the duration nob accordingly to correct moisture.

one of the problems, albeit a small one, with drilling out containers for air pruning, is that most of us don't have the patience to do a precision job of it. i know i don't. by the time i finish drilling approx 400 holes i'm about ready to quit.

my random drill pattern works but i feel that it could allow a little too much evaporation.

of course, with the adjustable pulse feed you can compensate but you can't compensate uniformly with multiple containers as they will all have a different number of holes. they will all run slightly different moisture profiles.

while i feel the use of the two water delivery/removal/control systems more or less negates the tendency for salt accumulation in the medium i feel it would be beneficial to determine a precision hole number, pattern, and hole diameter in an effort to minimize evaporation while still stopping root spin.

you can see from my photos where just a simple hole drilled in a one dimensional surface is sufficient to stop root spin.

i've got a pattern i've been thinking about. maybe i'll butcher up some more plastic.

 

[*mistress*]

laundry basket...

4-8 continuous vertical cuts, from top to bottom...

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

D9,

On hole pattern:
1. I found the drilling to be tedious after the first twenty of the thousand holes I needed to install. What started careful and organized rapidly turned into a mess.
2. My holes are larger than yours, at 9/16. I lined the inside of the buckets with the same heavy landscape felt that I tied off the sumps with. I don't know the consequences of deviating from the design, other than there is no way I'll be able to see root development.
2(b). A critique of smart pots has been the fact that their flexibility can contribute to root damage should they get jostled. I thought of the buckets more as a support for the felt than a container for the medium. I guess we'll see in eighty or a hundred days.
3. *mistress*'s suggestion of the laundry basket appeals to me, particularly if the felt lining works out. In that, we find mechanical uniformity from container to container. If these holes/smart pot idea results in too much evaporation, maybe a lower nute concentration to compensate. Maybe a dremmel or rotozip running staggered vertical incisions down the bucket to imitate the 'laundry basket' theme might stop root spin while minimizing lateral evaporation.
4. 'Air-pots' have progressive hole sizing. Have you considered using their RnD as a starting point?
5. Who cares about the minor differences in humidity (provided the dryiest isn't too dry) plant to plant... You've convinced me that the plant will modify itself to its conditions. Keep the conditions consistent, and the plant will be happy, right?

Looking at my containers in action, I would consider a few modifications for the next set: My sump sits about 3/4 of an inch above the bottom of the container. At first I wasn't super happy about that. Now, I'm okay with it, and might consider elevating it a bit more.

I really want to isolate my nute supply from the root zone. If I leave my stub higher, and don't drill the bottom inch or so of the bucket, I think I'm in a position to capture any excess flow from the pulse system, so that its not directly flowing into the res with any higher salt concentrations or root exudate. This excess then might move through the medium via capillary action like the rest of the system's solution. So I get the benefits of pulse, without contamination. Right?

I guess we'll see in eighty or a hundred days.

Two last notes:

First, a correction in thought: Looking through my post above, I realized that I overlooked one basic principle of PPK which is minimized evaporation at every stage. My big holes and smart pot idea is inconsistent with that. Might work, but I'll probably have to run my nute regime lighter in compensation.

Second, I'm about to add some air flow to the panda. To reduce evaporation from the top of the medium, I'll drape a piece of fabric over the top. It's porous, so it'll reduce air flow, not elimiate it. I'll air-gap it so it doesn't act as a direct wick.

Finally: D9 and *mistress* and Carl and Jack and OO and SG and everyone else who has actively participated in this this thread: I greatly appreciate your energy in contributing here.

Best wishes.

 

[SnowGro]

D9,

snowgro, thanks for the info, i'm trying to get an idea of what the capillary rise is for various substances in this device. since you are not auto top watering maybe some kind of mulch would get the moisture right to the top. i've read somewhere about a hydro vegetable farmer using perlite that just puts a plastic disc on top, leaving an air gap around the plant and sides.

I was under the impression that a certain volume of dry media up top would help to promote 'air roots' to help mitigate the lack of DO in the solution. I know you spent quite a bit of time discussing this principal early in the thread. Has it fallen by the wayside?

Also, just to add an additional twist, I do have that small chunk of rockwool still on the root mass. I don't know the water affinity difference between rockwool and perlite. If the rockwool has a higher affinity than perlite, it may be adding to the container's wicking potential by sucking water from the top of the perlite's natural wicking height. Just a thought.

 

[Carl Carlson]

Hey D9,

Have you seen DocBud's threads on 420magazine.com?

We've joked about how inexpensive the Peters/Jacks is.

Two words for you: Osomocote Plus.

Let me know if you can't find the threads, but want to see them.

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

Carl,

Want to add you your previous post? I found his threads, but haven't guessed what you are particularly interested in just yet.

 

[Carl Carlson]

Carl,

Want to add you your previous post? I found his threads, but haven't guessed what you are particularly interested in just yet.

You don't have to guess, I linked to it up above, Scotts Osmocote Plus. It's a controlled release fertilizer with 12 macro and micro nutrients that you can find at hardware stores and the like in the U.S. I think they sell a Canadian version too. The NPK ratio isn't perfect, but decent. Sixteen cents to fertilize a plant in a 2 gallon pot filled with soil or soilless mediums for four months.

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

...

EDIT: Okay... found the right thread...

 

[cactusjack]

Delta - A bit of the reason my wife did so well on her first try was that she was really careful with LST. Much more so than I have been recently. She really enjoyed it. However, I've got to give a lot of credit to the ppk system since she had absolutely no worries with pH or nute imbalance or lockout or sick roots; things I used to mess with endlessly in the past with DWC, especially in the summer. Also the wicking system worked beautifully keeping the medium moisture/O2 balance "just right", all without any maintenance.

The lights used were 6 x 55 watt PL-L compact fluorescent tubes (the twin T-5 tubes that are about 2 ft long). 3,000K with relatively decent reflectors. Not my favorite lights, but the only ones that weren't in use when I started the plant. They are set up in an old upright freezer that at one time was going to be my "only" grow space... HA!

Next generation is definitely going to be pure Atami coco with sub-irrigation plus top pulse feed. Basically your classic ppk, except I tend to prefer a smaller reservoir. I'll be using the perforated "Air-Pots" I picked up a few months ago and defoliation is a given. I'm just not sure yet what lights I'll use. My wife has seen your harvest pictures and keeps asking why we don't just get a 1,000 watt HPS and I frankly don't have an answer, except, my God, what would we do with all that pot?! One grow with 4 plants would probably last us for a year and I enjoy growing too much to let the garden lay fallow for 8 months between crops!

Will forward pictures in a few days of the setup I'm working on with the perforated Air-Pots.

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

Cactus,

Those air pots should be pretty easy to modify for a sump... I've been thinking about that for a few minutes myself...

Looking forward to your progress.

The way they are perforated, if you are considering top feeding (pulse or whatever), I'd suggest putting a little thought towards what happens if there is run off while the girls are establishing themselves.

Best wishes.

 

[cactusjack]

ImaginaryFriend - Good point on dealing with runoff during top feed using the Air-Pot. Right now I'm still a little perplexed on how I'm going to work the sump into the base and ensure that any liquid draining down will be directed into the reservoir and not just leak out all over things. Unlike the bottom of a bucket, Air-Pots are designed to leak!

For those interested, the Air-Pot looks like the first picture below (view from bottom). The base of the pot looks like the second picture and is normally recessed a couple inches up inside the pot to allow lots of air across the bottom of the roots. I may leave the base out entirely and build the sump as shown in the third picture, although I haven't found properly sized parts for the "containment pan" and "reservoir" yet. The Air-Pot wall would be tied to the containment pan using tie-wraps.

Anyone having any thoughts, please pass them along. I'm looking for ideas.

 

[delta9nxs]

D9,

On hole pattern:
1. I found the drilling to be tedious after the first twenty of the thousand holes I needed to install. What started careful and organized rapidly turned into a mess.
2. My holes are larger than yours, at 9/16. I lined the inside of the buckets with the same heavy landscape felt that I tied off the sumps with. I don't know the consequences of deviating from the design, other than there is no way I'll be able to see root development.
2(b). A critique of smart pots has been the fact that their flexibility can contribute to root damage should they get jostled. I thought of the buckets more as a support for the felt than a container for the medium. I guess we'll see in eighty or a hundred days.
3. *mistress*'s suggestion of the laundry basket appeals to me, particularly if the felt lining works out. In that, we find mechanical uniformity from container to container. If these holes/smart pot idea results in too much evaporation, maybe a lower nute concentration to compensate. Maybe a dremmel or rotozip running staggered vertical incisions down the bucket to imitate the 'laundry basket' theme might stop root spin while minimizing lateral evaporation.
4. 'Air-pots' have progressive hole sizing. Have you considered using their RnD as a starting point?
5. Who cares about the minor differences in humidity (provided the dryiest isn't too dry) plant to plant... You've convinced me that the plant will modify itself to its conditions. Keep the conditions consistent, and the plant will be happy, right?

Looking at my containers in action, I would consider a few modifications for the next set: My sump sits about 3/4 of an inch above the bottom of the container. At first I wasn't super happy about that. Now, I'm okay with it, and might consider elevating it a bit more.

I really want to isolate my nute supply from the root zone. If I leave my stub higher, and don't drill the bottom inch or so of the bucket, I think I'm in a position to capture any excess flow from the pulse system, so that its not directly flowing into the res with any higher salt concentrations or root exudate. This excess then might move through the medium via capillary action like the rest of the system's solution. So I get the benefits of pulse, without contamination. Right?

I guess we'll see in eighty or a hundred days.

Two last notes:

First, a correction in thought: Looking through my post above, I realized that I overlooked one basic principle of PPK which is minimized evaporation at every stage. My big holes and smart pot idea is inconsistent with that. Might work, but I'll probably have to run my nute regime lighter in compensation.

Second, I'm about to add some air flow to the panda. To reduce evaporation from the top of the medium, I'll drape a piece of fabric over the top. It's porous, so it'll reduce air flow, not elimiate it. I'll air-gap it so it doesn't act as a direct wick.

Finally: D9 and *mistress* and Carl and Jack and OO and SG and everyone else who has actively participated in this this thread: I greatly appreciate your energy in contributing here.

Best wishes.

hey, IF, "staggered vertical incisions" is what i'm thinking.

even though my buckets have approx the same number of holes (380-430 or so) every one is slightly different. you can feel differences in moisture at the top with the same delivery volume.

i consider controlling evaporation to be a very important concept in the effort to maintain solution and media chemical stability.

so i'm just playing around with the idea of having the minimum number of holes that will accomplish the air pruning.

by standardizing them i gain a little more control over moisture content in the medium.

once the sump breaks the waters surface all extra length is superfluous. enough to reach the solution is enough to reach the solution. but running it all the way to the bottom won't affect performance as long as it's not touching the bottom and impeding flow. the extra length below the surface gets you a safety factor in case your system starts running out of water while you're away.

your sump should be flush with the bottom of the grow container in order to not trap water in the bottom.

my sumps are flush but are not sealed and the buckets have holes drilled in them right down to the floor of the bucket. when initially watering in the coco i get run off from there.

during operation, though, no water should leak out of the medium through the sidewall. if you are getting visible water from the sidewall holes you are putting too much solution in too fast. there should be no excess flow.

i've looked at smart pots and air pots and some other designs and most are too flimsy for decent plant support with coco.

well, i hope i've helped a little bit.

 

[delta9nxs]

D9,
I was under the impression that a certain volume of dry media up top would help to promote 'air roots' to help mitigate the lack of DO in the solution. I know you spent quite a bit of time discussing this principal early in the thread. Has it fallen by the wayside?

Also, just to add an additional twist, I do have that small chunk of rockwool still on the root mass. I don't know the water affinity difference between rockwool and perlite. If the rockwool has a higher affinity than perlite, it may be adding to the container's wicking potential by sucking water from the top of the perlite's natural wicking height. Just a thought.

hey, snowgro, completely dry media will not grow any roots.

a dry layer on top won't hurt anything. i just think in terms of maximizing space.

perlite allows a lot of evaporation. i was just thinking of some way to slow it down.

 

[delta9nxs]

Hey D9,

Have you seen DocBud's threads on 420magazine.com?

We've joked about how inexpensive the Peters/Jacks is.

Two words for you: Osomocote Plus.

Let me know if you can't find the threads, but want to see them.

hi, carl, no i haven't seen them. i went over and found one but i don't think it's the right one. i'm not a member so i couldn't use the search function.

i have thought about the osmocote or nutricote types. nasa used osmocote in their hydro in space experiments.

it would be really cool to only have to load the machine one time and then just top with water.

i can buy 50lb sacks 10 miles from my house for 90 bucks.

 

[delta9nxs]

Delta - A bit of the reason my wife did so well on her first try was that she was really careful with LST. Much more so than I have been recently. She really enjoyed it. However, I've got to give a lot of credit to the ppk system since she had absolutely no worries with pH or nute imbalance or lockout or sick roots; things I used to mess with endlessly in the past with DWC, especially in the summer. Also the wicking system worked beautifully keeping the medium moisture/O2 balance "just right", all without any maintenance.

The lights used were 6 x 55 watt PL-L compact fluorescent tubes (the twin T-5 tubes that are about 2 ft long). 3,000K with relatively decent reflectors. Not my favorite lights, but the only ones that weren't in use when I started the plant. They are set up in an old upright freezer that at one time was going to be my "only" grow space... HA!

Next generation is definitely going to be pure Atami coco with sub-irrigation plus top pulse feed. Basically your classic ppk, except I tend to prefer a smaller reservoir. I'll be using the perforated "Air-Pots" I picked up a few months ago and defoliation is a given. I'm just not sure yet what lights I'll use. My wife has seen your harvest pictures and keeps asking why we don't just get a 1,000 watt HPS and I frankly don't have an answer, except, my God, what would we do with all that pot?! One grow with 4 plants would probably last us for a year and I enjoy growing too much to let the garden lay fallow for 8 months between crops!

Will forward pictures in a few days of the setup I'm working on with the perforated Air-Pots.

hi, if you get that 1k and have an 8x8 space for 4 plants, set up the pulse feed, use an air pruning container, run a vertical bare bulb with 12-16 inches to the plants, a fan blowing straight up past the light, a reciprocating fan on the whole area, and veg 6-8 weeks i think you will get at least 2 lb's per grow. hortilux are the shit. figure 16 weeks total per grow and thats 96 oz's per year.

two people could stay ripped 24/7 with that much weed.

 

[Carl Carlson]

I guess the threads don't matter. The stuff works, greenhouses use it.

You know what to do.

Your system is all linked together though right?

Osmocote Plus or something similar, a controlled release fert., is mixed into the grow medium. Plain water only.

http://osmocoteisbest.com/_standardproducts/15912mo34.shtml

27 grams per gallon

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

D9,

With regard to sump length: I was referring to length extended into the bucket specifically.

MY GOAL: I do not want to remix nutes and destabilize the solution with run off from the root zone.

1. If I'm pulsing with the right volume, this bottom 'catch' is irrelevant.
2. If the 'pure' top-pulsed solution is over-pulsed, and it's excess is captured in the bottom of the bucket, I achieve my goal. The capillary action should be sufficient to move it back up throughout the medium (and back down the sump if i really mess up on volumes).
3. In your perpetual cycle, it seems likely that the only plants being over watered are the youngest transplants to veg with the least established roots. That is, even if I'm wrong with point number 2, there roots haven't made it to the standing water (which, in my understanding of hydrodynamics, won't be there any way).

I found the Osmocote Plus thread. The search let me find posts by Doc, and then found his method in the 'Un-Lucky Queen' journal.

Summary:
-He grew from seed (he finished single cola plants that were three and a half feet tall).
-He mixed Controlled Release Ferts (CRFs) into his hempys and soil pots.
-He fed one hempy and one soil with Advanced Nutrients connoisseur line without the osmocote plus.
-The CRF's dominated the Advanced Nute's line.
-The osmocote plus showed no yellowing in fan leaves through harvest, an only one plant showed a momentary zinc deficiency. (Harvest times seemed longer than he expected.)
-His observations suggested that the osmotic qualities of the CRF's kept his plants fed at a steady rate of 300-400ppm.
(N.B.: One of the studies he cited showed optimum results with a CRF fed medium and a 300ppm Nitrogen pulse feed...)
-This thesis and method (i.e. consistent even feed of consistent nutes results in extremely healthy plants) is in keeping with the PPK approach.
-With steady, light feedings, he found that he didn't need a flush for clean finished product (i.e. if the CRFs still had food at the end of the cycle, it wasn't negatively affecting the smoke).

Things to keep in mind:
-He has invested substantially in environmental controls, and was maintaining 'ideal' humidity, temp and co2 throughout his grow.
-He is an extraordinarily thoughtful grower, without a massive amount of practice (just yet). His use of AN nutes may not have maximized their potential... but his goal seems to be developing an idiot proof system. In that light, he showed that the osmocote can be a great base (or stand alone) nutrient program for success.

In my opinion:
-Good thread.
-Very simple approach to cultivation. (I think he is mistaken with his choice to run seeds for a medical production run, but this is secondary to his nutrient methodology.)
-I think this use of CRFs with the PPK wicking/pulse system (with a direct-RO-float-valve-top-off) has all the qualities one might look for in a very reliable 'idiot-proof' grow, where steady and consistent harvest outweighs the few extra buds an supercharged system might have to offer, along with an increased risk of failure. I am convinced enough to try it as soon as my situation allows.

Thanks for the heads up Carl...

Best wishes...

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

Cactus,

Can you just cut off the bottom of a 5 gallon bucket and plumb to that? (I'd probably leave the bottom on the air-pot and modify it to allow the sump through.)

 

[cactusjack]

Cactus,

Can you just cut off the bottom of a 5 gallon bucket and plumb to that? (I'd probably leave the bottom on the air-pot and modify it to allow the sump through.)

That was my first thought too. Unfortunately, at least for the 5 gal size, its diameter is larger than the bottom of a 5 gal bucket. I need about 14" to clear the outside of the "nubs" on the pot wall. I could wind it up a little tighter, but I'd lose a lot of volume. Right now I'm looking into plastic oil change pans. Or I could just let it leak early-on as D9 suggests.

Hey Carl!
Nice find with the Osmocote Plus. I run a mess of 5 gallon buckets in the backyard vegetable garden set up like EarthBoxs. Top dressed with time release nutes only once at the beginning of the season, then sub-irrigate with pure water. Works very well. I may try the Osmocote product since I'm currently using a more expensive Lilley "tomato/vegetable" product.

However, for indoor use, I worry about not having full and instant control over the nutes. The ppk approach allows one to instantly correct a problem if it arises (although it seems unlikely at this point given D9's experiences). I don't mind losing a couple tomato plants outdoors, but I'd hate to toast one of the girls indoors. Still, it is a very attractive option. I like the idea of just hooking my float valve to the output of my RO system and NEVER topping a reservoir or mixing nutes.

Seems like *mistress* was looking into premix time release a few months back but I can't find where she mentioned it.

Regarding the outdoor garden. I envy you guys who have been picking tomatoes since June. Here we've only had 16 days of sunshine since June 1st. I have all of 7 tomatoes on 8 plants and they may never ripen at this rate.