I do like the puzzle, and the artical is very interesting but it gives no explanation on how they get it to stay stable for 70 days or actual DO levels relitive to water temp It doesn't make sense and I can't find any other info on nano bubbles staying suspended in water. How does gravity not effect this? How does the water temp not effect this ? Do you have any more links you were reading? I'd happily buy a nano bubble generator and do some tests if there not crazy expensive and I could find some info that supports 70f water can hold more than 9 ppm DO. Thanks for the links
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Oxygen (O2, DO) is a vital elementary element for DWC hydroponic pot grows
- Thread starter JohnM
- Start date
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...s_in_water/links/0c960531bf5f1bcce5000000.pdf
Really good link that suggests it's possible to saturate fresh water to 10.7 mgl, or about 10ppm with air, way higher with pure oxygen but that's not really Economiclly and option.
Let's read the whole artical again and talk later.
Really good link that suggests it's possible to saturate fresh water to 10.7 mgl, or about 10ppm with air, way higher with pure oxygen but that's not really Economiclly and option.
Let's read the whole artical again and talk later.
Good questions…
The best way I know of to get answers to your questions your asking is to message Dr. Ushikubo and ask her directly, she wrote the research. She’s the expert, the person to ask.
Evidence of the existence and the stability of nano-bubbles in water
Written by Fernanda Ushikubo, PhD
University of Campinas, Campinas is a public research university in the state of São Paulo, Brazil, and one of the best universities in the country and in Latin America.
Nanotechnology, Food Science, Materials Engineering
Fernanda Ushikubo
Institution
University of Campinas
Department
Departamento de Engenharia de Alimentos (DEA)
Message author 1 click away, ask her these question you do not understand, she will have answers
You can also call (Pentair) Aquatic Eco Systems in Florida, ask for the Tech Department, the techs are very knowledgeable and will explain things in non-scientific terms that are relatively easy to understand. The phone call is TOLL FREE, but it will cost you a few minutes of your time.
Discovery doesn’t get any easier or simple than this, but you’ve got to make some effort if you really want answers for your questions.
Don’t be shy, tell the tech your application is growing hydroponic cannabis so he/she has a very clear understanding how you want to use the technology.
Honestly I just keep the DO level as high as possible. I have no meter to measure the DO levels so I have to go for 'as much as possible' in lieu of a meter.
Water temps are the only variable in dissolved oxygen as far as I know. Although there are probably others, temps are my primary concern with DO.
Water temps are the only variable in dissolved oxygen as far as I know. Although there are probably others, temps are my primary concern with DO.
Thanks for responding. OK, I hear you saying on your DWC that your oxygenation capability is absolutely limited by the res water temperature you choose, air and the DO Chart prediction.
You are basically using a thermometer to confirm test your DO Saturation and hope the DO is in a "safe range?"
How often do you test the res water temperature?
Levitationofme
Active member
If you want to check out more stuff on DO there is a guy who presents at canna shows.
Charlie Hays of Advanced Treatment Technologies. He claimed to have a water treatment system that managed to increase DO.
In any case it was an interesting presentation.
He pointed out Cannabis, Hemp and Hopps can
Utilize more DO then most all other plants and can benefit greatly from increased levels.
After of course was the sales pitch for his water tech. Im no chemist, so I could easily be duped...
Charlie Hays of Advanced Treatment Technologies. He claimed to have a water treatment system that managed to increase DO.
In any case it was an interesting presentation.
He pointed out Cannabis, Hemp and Hopps can
Utilize more DO then most all other plants and can benefit greatly from increased levels.
After of course was the sales pitch for his water tech. Im no chemist, so I could easily be duped...
Water temps are not the only variable in DO.
I made hydroponics system in Italy and I recommend to blow a lot air.
If the ph raise up too much air in the water.
My Dwc systems are 42L and they are sold with a 10lpm professional air pump,we use handmade air ring diffuser.
The results: Plant grow incredibly fast, 7-8 cm a day in veg stage.
This guy use my system https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=338147
and this is a standard results with my system.
20 Days in the system, Topped plant, he has taken more than 15 cuttings and the plant is 50 cm....
Sorry for my bad english!!
chayesrunz
New member
I'm new to this forum... and to be honest I was asked to register and post on this thread. There are so many points I'd like to make on the immense contribution dissolved oxygen makes to plant health and production but let me first say that true science is the path to explaining it all. I am a biochemist who has spent the past 27 years researching dissolved oxygen's effect on plant and animal health (and more specific to this conversation), including cannabis. It is important to understand that the optimum dissolved oxygen level is very much species and variety specific. Of all the plants we research the range of optimum DO varies from 15-20 ppm in lettuce to 40-45 ppm in cannabis, hops, and hemp. When I say optimum DO level I am referring to the DO at the root zone, not simply in the irrigation supply. Dissolved Oxygen is the most important nutrient as it controls both water uptake and nutrient uptake in plants. It is also a critical component in almost all plant function. I understand that many of you will likely bring up the fact that Henry's Law (explains the solubility of gasses) says that you can't achieve those levels of DO which is true. Due to Oxygen's relatively low solubility, it is difficult to achieve more than about 15 ppm in any circumstances. So we introduce the oxygen into solution in a much more soluble form (ozone or O3) which is 12 1/2 times more soluble than O2.
I'll wrap this post up by saying we have applied these principles in cannabis grows as large as 500,000 square feet to as small as 1,000 square feet.... but it works the same for one plant as it does for thousands of plants. I look forward to a good discussion.
I'll wrap this post up by saying we have applied these principles in cannabis grows as large as 500,000 square feet to as small as 1,000 square feet.... but it works the same for one plant as it does for thousands of plants. I look forward to a good discussion.
Great to have a working biochemist with 27 years professional experience participate, thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Do you work with professional hydroponic cannabis growers?
Regarding DWC hydroponic cannabis roots, in you professional opinion, what do you consider the hypoxic threshold that actually defines “low oxygen levels… specifically low DO Concentration, low DO Saturation, the threshold when plant roots and beneficial microbes begin to suffocate experiencing frank mitochondrial hypoxia, sickness and ultimately cell death?
How long, minutes-hour, does the sustained low oxygen event (hypoxia event) take before root and microbial cell death presents clinically?
I would assume that you are using an ozone generator to provide your source ozone gas, is that correct? Regarding your feed gas into your O3 generator; is your feed gas ambient air or is your feed gas 100% oxygen?
Thanks
chayesrunz
New member
JohnM,
Thanks for the welcome, I have designed systems for hydroponic facilities from 140-acre hydroponic tomato greenhouses to DWC raft 4-acre leafy greens greenhouses, to 3-acre NFT produce production, to hydroponic cannabis production. I also work closely with North Carolina State Univ. in researching hydroponic production and aquaponic production.
As for the threshold between anaerobic and aerobic conditions, the answer is conditioned upon a few other factors like environmental temperature. As environmental conditions heat up the plants metabolic demand for oxygen increase dramatically. My next comment would be that it is risky to assume that above that threshold all is good. Well before that threshold is reached compromises have already kicked in slowing the plant's growth and health (stress and disease resistance). With all that said, we find that the floor DO level is around 6 ppm in the immediate vicinity of the root tissue. This means that you must maintain adequate flow adjacent to the roots to remove the oxygen-depleted water in the root zone and replenish it with new oxygen. Remember that there is a gas exchange process going on at the root surface... everything in nature is trying to reach a balance so if your oxygen level in the root zone is higher than that in the root it, flows INTO the root but if it is equal or lower the movement of oxygen reverses and actually EXITS the root.
As for the timeline, remember that pythium and other root water molds thrive in a low oxygen environment and the good guys thrive in a high oxygen environment. Add to this the fact that pythium is a secondary antagonist meaning it attacks already stressed or damaged roots. I cannot over-emphasize the reality that it's all about doing everything you can to produce the healthiest plant possible and allow the plant's natural defense mechanisms to be your first line of defense.
We do use high concentration ozone generators (never use a UV ozone generator as the gas concentrations are so low that it is basically insoluble) with oxygen feed gas but there is far more to it than that. Ozone is the most effective oxidizer available so when using it we have to exert absolute control of where we maintain dissolved ozone levels for water purification and disinfection and where we convert it back to supersaturated dissolved oxygen.
I hope this helps....
Thanks for the welcome, I have designed systems for hydroponic facilities from 140-acre hydroponic tomato greenhouses to DWC raft 4-acre leafy greens greenhouses, to 3-acre NFT produce production, to hydroponic cannabis production. I also work closely with North Carolina State Univ. in researching hydroponic production and aquaponic production.
As for the threshold between anaerobic and aerobic conditions, the answer is conditioned upon a few other factors like environmental temperature. As environmental conditions heat up the plants metabolic demand for oxygen increase dramatically. My next comment would be that it is risky to assume that above that threshold all is good. Well before that threshold is reached compromises have already kicked in slowing the plant's growth and health (stress and disease resistance). With all that said, we find that the floor DO level is around 6 ppm in the immediate vicinity of the root tissue. This means that you must maintain adequate flow adjacent to the roots to remove the oxygen-depleted water in the root zone and replenish it with new oxygen. Remember that there is a gas exchange process going on at the root surface... everything in nature is trying to reach a balance so if your oxygen level in the root zone is higher than that in the root it, flows INTO the root but if it is equal or lower the movement of oxygen reverses and actually EXITS the root.
As for the timeline, remember that pythium and other root water molds thrive in a low oxygen environment and the good guys thrive in a high oxygen environment. Add to this the fact that pythium is a secondary antagonist meaning it attacks already stressed or damaged roots. I cannot over-emphasize the reality that it's all about doing everything you can to produce the healthiest plant possible and allow the plant's natural defense mechanisms to be your first line of defense.
We do use high concentration ozone generators (never use a UV ozone generator as the gas concentrations are so low that it is basically insoluble) with oxygen feed gas but there is far more to it than that. Ozone is the most effective oxidizer available so when using it we have to exert absolute control of where we maintain dissolved ozone levels for water purification and disinfection and where we convert it back to supersaturated dissolved oxygen.
I hope this helps....
Dr. Chayesrunz,
North Carolina State University has an exceptional Horticulture Department. If Dr. Williamson is still there, please tell him hello for me.
Thanks so much for sharing your professional expertise, knowledge and experience with hydroponics cannabis oxygenation with me. Specifically hydroponic cannabis oxygenation using decomposed ozone (O3) to insure optimal oxygenation supersaturated concentrations of dissolved oxygen continuously post disinfectant phase. Disinfection being the 1st line of concentrated ozone applications and the waste product, highly concentrated O2 post decomposition shall not be wasted and be introduced back into the supply water circulation insuring optimal high DO super-saturation throughout the supply water system.
So, for growing hydroponic cannabis the best DO range is 40-45 PPM DO (DO Supersaturation is best) to the bare bones minimum low DO @ 6 PPM DO.
Does that mean that the hypoxic threshold for the low oxygenation range for Hydro cannabis is 6 PPM?
This "safe" DO range holds true and constant whether growing 1 hydroponic cannabis plant or 1000 cannabis plants. PERIOD.
Now I know the "safe" DO concentration range from a professional – constant DO Supersaturation 24/7 through harvest is always best, most healthy for roots, below 6 PPM DO is far less than the best DO, less than 6 PPM DO seriously compromises root health and that's poor crop management with predictably results – less than 6 ppm DO is where cannabis root hypoxia begins, hypoxic root stress arousing the attention of fungal predators a feast is coming.
Have you published any research specifically about hydroponic cannabis oxygenation requirements? Please cite your research, I would love to read it and apply it clinically.
If I’m understanding you correctly, your first line application of concentrated ozone is applied primarily for water purification and disinfection in a separate water reservoir, plant roots and the good microbes colonies should never come in contact with the highly ozonated water?
When the unstable O3 decomposes to O2 the oxygenated water is supersaturated with dissolved oxygen and is then reintroduced to the circulating water system containing established plant roots and good microbial colonies living within in the hydroponic growing system.
When the O3 has decomposes to O2 this insures the “the range of optimum DO varies from 15-20 ppm in lettuce to 40-45 ppm in cannabis, hops, and hemp.”
And the bare bones minimal DO concentration is 6 PPM.
“When I say optimum DO level I am referring to the DO at the root zone, not simply in the irrigation supply.”
Clearly it is seems vitally necessary to test the DO in reservoir water within the cannabis root zone.
The last plant root zone in reservoir supply water circulation having a lower DO than the 1st plant’s roots in the circulation, i.e. subtracting the oxygen uptake consumed by all the roots and microbes proximal (to the circulating water pump) to that last plant distal to the water pump head waters.
The O2 demand being collective (total plant roots and total biomass of microbes) plus net loss or gain due to O2 equilibration with atmospheric oxygen concentration and pressure.
I’m assuming that testing the irrigation supply DO would also be important too for evaluating the O2 demand of the beneficial microbe colonies considering their collective oxygen demand must be considered. The collective oxygen uptake can be substantial depending on the total mass of root and microbes within the hydroponic system.
What brand and model ozone generators do you use/recommend (no UV generators) for large commercial cannabis operations and is your pure 100% oxygen feed gas provided by LOX, compressed welding oxygen, PSA oxygen generator, VSA or VPSA oxygen generators?
It seems logical that to me that if,”Dissolved Oxygen is the most important nutrient as it controls both water uptake and nutrient uptake in plants. It is also a critical component in almost all plant function.” Then serial DO testing throughout months of the growing season seems necessary. Chemical DO test kits are cheap on the front end… $20. If you plan to farm in years and serial test DO’s throughout the growing season, investing in a DO Meter will be far cheaper and will amortizes in short order.
A safe concentration of Oxygen is no doubt the most import vital element required and must be replenished minute by minute continuous through the life cycle or all aerobes, bar no aerobic specie.
If you don’t mind, I will have more questions later… for now, thanks so much.
John
I'm in
hyposomniac
Active member
Anyone know about this product, hydrorush 'an oxygen rich water treatment additive?'
Msds doesnt list ingredients, only mentions ammonia like smell.
How about usefulness of Calcium or magnesium peroxide?
Thier ad copy
"HydroRush is a safe supplement for your microbe that is used as an electron acceptor allowing certain microbes (bacteria) to oxidize in your Hydroponic Water System.
HydroRush acts as a stimulant that accelerates the activity of abundant beneficial microbes that in turn provides beneficial Oxygen toward a balanced microbial environment."
Msds doesnt list ingredients, only mentions ammonia like smell.
How about usefulness of Calcium or magnesium peroxide?
Thier ad copy
"HydroRush is a safe supplement for your microbe that is used as an electron acceptor allowing certain microbes (bacteria) to oxidize in your Hydroponic Water System.
HydroRush acts as a stimulant that accelerates the activity of abundant beneficial microbes that in turn provides beneficial Oxygen toward a balanced microbial environment."
