Tutorial Organics for Beginners

[BurnOne]

Burn One - What do you think of the MSM mix? good for beginners ?

I don't know what that is. But, if it's peat or coir based, just use it like peat in LC's mixes.
Burn1

 

[Suby]

Perlite might not be organically or naturally derived...but there isn't anything about perlite that is going to take away from your organic environment that you are creating in the soil. The micro biology isn't going to be compramised one iota from useing perlite or from the water retaining crystals that promix has in it.

Totally Agree.
S

 

[BurnOne]

"prob already been said but I thought i should mention"
If you use pro mix you aren't full organic, it contains inorganic wetting agents. Im not saying it matters just wanted to point that out.

It has a very small synthetic nute charge and soap (wetting agent) in it that'll be gone after a watering or two.

Organic means "it once lived". Things like dolomite and perlite never lived but they are completely acceptable in organic farming. Perlite is inert and dolomite is a mined product that is natural.
Burn1

 

[thescientist]

I just wanted to point it out for the purists. In my view the best product comes from a combination of organic base nutes, and a few choice inorganic additives. But when I hear people selling buds as "organic grown in promix" I gotta laugh. I get damn close to full organic but I never try to sell it as organic.

 

[vhGhost]

I don't know what that is. But, if it's peat or coir based, just use it like peat in LC's mixes.
Burn1

Moonshine Mix by Moonshine man. http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=23970

 

[kokua]

But when I hear people selling buds as "organic grown in promix" I gotta laugh. I get damn close to full organic but I never try to sell it as organic.

There is nothing about promix that discourages microbiology in the media. There is nothing that promix has in it that inhibits the natural environment you are attempting to create by going organic. You can have a 100% organic grow using promix...bottom line.

 

[dankiestog]

Thanks for the Info Burnone & others ...lots of help so for...

 

[jrw]

Cheers organic fanatics and all you mentors

I need your opinion on my situation. Currently Im gathering all the materials needed for a good soil mix.

So far I have:
Blood meal (N), rock phosphate (P), kelp meal (K), dolomit lime, Perlite and Mushroom compost (also wood ash, but some say thats bad...).

Im a little unsure what kind of spagnum to choose.

Whats available is swedish spagnum peat very similar to the Canadian flavour.

It comes in these kinds:
1) Unferted, "clean", low ph (~3.5-4.5) spagnum.
2) Ferted, low ph (~3.5-4.5) spagnum.
3) Ferted, mid ph (~6.2) spagnum.

I dont know the exact NPK values of the ferted one, but its probably mostly N and a little P and K.

Which one to choose and why?

I've been doing a lot of thinking, and I am willing to share my thoughts, but let me get your initial opinions first...

Two things I dont understand:
1) Why is recipe number 1 the same for both unferted Canadian Spagnum and ferted Pro Mix BX or HP / Sunshine Mixes? Wouldn't one end up with a more ferted mix if choosing ProMix/Sunshine or in my case ferted spagnum?
2) Why would one apply the same amount of dolomite lime to a spagnum mix thats pretty low in ph and to a Pro Mix / Sunshine Mix, thats ph'ed to around 6?

The two options Im leaning towards is:
1) 40% unferted spagnum (no Perlite, just clean spagnum), 40% Perlite, 20% Mushroom compost.
2) 50% ferted spagnum, 40% Perlite, 10% Mushroom compost.

What do you think? All inputs are more than welcome!

Cheers from Denmark

 

[judas cohen]

jrw: I'm not an expert, but things I would keep in mind using your inventory: 1) blood meal is fast release and has a N value of about 12% by weight.
2) Rock phosphate is slow release and long term availability. (P=2%-4%)
3) Kelp meal is slow release and long term availability (1-0-2)
4)dolomite lime is short term availability (1-4 months) and will raise a low ph to 7, but won't lower a ph that's above 7.
5)wood ash will send your ph through the roof if you use too much, and then you're pretty much screwed. Could be dangerous. I've never used it.
6) often mushroom compost is high ph. (like ph 8)

What is the source of the ferts in the ferted spagnum? Osmocote time release salts or composted chicken manure/poultry litter or composted cow manure? Composted animal manure is sometimes blended by the manufacturer to a pretty even ratio, like 0.10%-0.10%-0.10% when used in commercial potting soil in the USA. Not sure about spagnum in Denmark.

I would make a 3-1-2 veg mix and a 1-3-2 flower mix to transplant into when combining the ferts you have to work with.

Be sure to mix your soil as far in advance as possible, so the long term ferts will become more available.

2 TBL/gal dolomite will handle either the 4 ph or 6 ph spagnum.

I've never used pro mix or sunshine mix, so don't want to guess wrong.

I think you have a good list of ingredients, and they should make a very nice mix. Good Luck!

EDIT: Often commercially prepared mushroom compost is heat treated before packaging. If that's the case (usually no way of knowing) then you won't have any mykes. No mykes in the unferted spagnum. May be mykes in the ferted spagnum if it contains composted manure that hasn't been sterilized to kill weed seeds. (Again, no way of knowing.)

The additions of a myke source will greatly aid in your grow if your mix doesn't contain any. It will accelerate availability of your ferts.

A scoop of undisturbed topsoil from a grassy cow pasture or a forest will add mykes. Commercial myke innoculant is easier, if available. Check expiration date if you decide to use it.

 

[jrw]

Exellent reply judas cohen, thanks a lot my friend

I'll go for the unferted Spagnum so that Im sure what kind of ferts are in my mix:
40% Sphagnum
40% Perlite
20% Champost

I have two extra Qs based on your answer:

1) 3-1-2 veg mix, and 1-3-2 flower mix: Would that be TBSP pr gallon then? Or just the ratio? I'd rather give em too little than too much.
2) What is mykes? Cant find it in the dictionary...

 

[judas cohen]

jrw: Ratios. 3-1-2=15-5-10. It's a rough rule of thumb generally accepted as "ideal" ratios of N to P to K for veg and flower. Don't worry about getting it exact. Just useful for approximations. Plants can't count, they just eat what they need and leave the rest.

Another way of saying, "high N-lowP for veg; and low N-high P for flower." It's flexible. FoxFarm makes a popular veg mix that's 5-5-5, and a flower mix that's 5-8-4; Rainbow Mix is 5-5-2 for veg and 1-9-2 for flower. They both are widely used by organic growers in the USA. You can see there's a wide spread and it all works.

Mykes is slang for mycorrhizae. Beneficial bacteria and fungi that aid plants by converting complex molecules into simple elements that plants can eat. They also discourage bugs and disease. Plants will grow without them (example: hydro and salt ferts), but will grow faster and healthier with them present in the soil. Use the search feature at this site for more than you really want to know.LOL

I suggest you don't worry too much about ratios and mykes. Just be aware of the info and use what's available to you. Based on what I know of you, you will do just fine. Don't try too hard. Given half a chance, MJ will grow on its own, if we just leave it alone.LOL

Using unferted spagnum sounds good. Eliminates the unknown. I think you're right about too little is better than too much. Your grow mixture sounds nice. (actually, all 3 mixes would work OK, IMO.)

You've got some good fert sources. Care to share the veg and bloom formulas you're gonna' use?

 

[Linenoise]

First I would like to thank everyone for taking time out of their lives to share their most useful information with the rest of us. Without your patience and generosity of knowledge many of us would not be able to do what it is we endeavor to do.

For me I have opted to go with LC's Recipe #1. I am still quite a noob at this (I wont even get into my growspace troubles) so I am prone to lots of screw ups. Personally I do not mind the screw ups as I tend to learn much faster when I mess things up.

Anyhow, regarding Recipe #1. I have manage to gather most of the necessary components but I am, thus far, having trouble locating Dolomite. I've been to places like Home Depot and Lowes as well as a couple of local organic nurseries. Thus far no luck.

After doing a few online searches, it seems people use this stuff for health food suppliments? Perhaps I am not looking in the right sort of store? Any help in where I could find dolomite would be greatly appreciated.

Secondly, the greensand I purchased is merely called 'greensand' . Well it is 'Earth's Finest Greensand' the only other labeling on the bag (40 lb bag) is 'Loaded with micro nutrients' and 'Provides organic iron'

I bought it since it was the only stuff (at the time) I could find (after having been to 3 other places). Anyhow, when I went to the 5th store (kelp meal was not easy to find. heh) to finally get the kelp meal, I saw two other forms of greensand. Neither were called 'Jersey Greensand' (I assumed it was a brand name but ya never know) .

One of the forms of greensand came in a 40lb bag and had the listing of the micro nutes on the bag. The other was a smaller bag (maybe 5lbs?) and only had NPK listed on the bag. The smaller bag was also the roughly same price as the 40lb bag.

So guess my question about the greensand is. Am I okay with what I have, or should I get one of the other greensands (it's nice to actually know what is IN your components) and if so, which?

Again much thanks to you all for all the help abd hopefully I will manage to not kill my plants before harvest time.

 

[Guest]

and hopefully I will manage to not kill my plants before harvest time.

Can I have a big A-MEN to THAT, fellow readers, for that is the goal we share!!

Rather than go here and there and get this and that,, I tried Fox Farms dirt - with about 50% pearlite and a dash of dolomite lime and some fresh worm castings for mycorrhizae. Beneficial bacteria and fungi that aid plants by converting complex molecules into simple elements that plants can eat. That and a diet of fish juice, seeweed extract, and bat crap. - ok a little this and that. :wink:

ohhhh and my secret ingredient, bubble hash water; when available.

I don't know what is in it, but I cut it 50-50 with pH lowered tap - to get to 6.2-6.3 - and plants LOVE it - it has to be good - it will start growing all kinds of nasty stuff if left to sit. I keep the container aireated - that keeps it from going sour, and it's made from 100% cannabis.

 

[Guest]

Welcome to IC, Linenoise. The greensand you have is fine. It is the same product as the Jersey greensand just mined from different areas. Greensand is mined from the ocean floors I believe. It's rich in potassium. it also has phosphorous, calcium, magnesium, iron and a slew of trace minerals. It is slow release. Meaning all it's goodness will not be immediately available. Are you planning on re-using your soil? If so, IMHO it's an excellent addition. If not, a good compost, kelp meal and molasses will add potassium. As for the dolmite, tell the hired help at the store you need to add lime to your yard to change the ph. That might help them. But make sure it's dolomite. If it's pellitized, that's ok. All that means is you get to smash the bejesus out of it...great stress relief. lol I pray every closet opening that I haven't killed my plants...AGAIN!

 

[Linenoise]

Rather than go here and there and get this and that,, I tried Fox Farms dirt - with about 50% pearlite and a dash of dolomite lime and some fresh worm castings for mycorrhizae. Beneficial bacteria and fungi that aid plants by converting complex molecules into simple elements that plants can eat. That and a diet of fish juice, seeweed extract, and bat crap. - ok a little this and that.

I have a military background so I am trained to operate on the KISS (Keep it simple, stupid!) philosophy. My first grow I used simple potting soil for the seedlings. I did a hell of a job over watering them! It looked like all the seedlings were done for. All but one of the suffered from a heavy case of stunted growth, but they refused to roll up and die. After 2.5 weeks I thought they should probably be moved into better soil. So I mixed up some soil using a basic formula I got from one of the videos by Jorge Cervantes <sp?>. It was a simple mix of
60% potting oil
15% perlite
10% building sand
10% worm castings
5% premix 12-6-6

Instant nute burn!

On the plus side I can now easily identify nute burn and over watering. The downside, I felt a little defeated and lost a bit of confidence. thusly I decided to follow LC's Recipe #1 to the tee, atleast then I would know that if things go wrong it wont be my medium. Plus I like the idea of, eventually, going totally organic.

Welcome to IC, Linenoise. The greensand you have is fine. It is the same product as the Jersey greensand just mined from different areas. Greensand is mined from the ocean floors I believe. It's rich in potassium. it also has phosphorous, calcium, magnesium, iron and a slew of trace minerals. It is slow release. Meaning all it's goodness will not be immediately available. Are you planning on re-using your soil? If so, IMHO it's an excellent addition. If not, a good compost, kelp meal and molasses will add potassium. As for the dolmite, tell the hired help at the store you need to add lime to your yard to change the ph. That might help them. But make sure it's dolomite. If it's pellitized, that's ok. All that means is you get to smash the bejesus out of it...great stress relief. lol I pray every closet opening that I haven't killed my plants...AGAIN!

Eventually I would like to reuse my soil. I hate to be wasteful and if it saves money in the long run all the more reason! Thus far I've not looked into it at all but once I get down a few more of the basics I intend to educate myself on soil recycling. Anyhow, I am glad to hear I got the right stuff. I suppose having 40 pounds of the stuff and only using a couple of tbs per cubic foot, I should have plenty for well...ever.

The only thing I was unable to acquire was liquid karma, but I do happen to have superthrive. I dont suppose I can use that instead? (It seems like i read that someplace)

Anyhow, thanks for your help. I've started my second and third batch of seeds (one batch in a potting soil & perlite mix and the other batch in some MG seedling soil). Call it an experiment to see which performs better. I have two survivors from the original debacle. I even named them (girl names of course) in an effort to coax them into carrying on, despite the heavy nute burn

 

[Guest]

Keep reading in the OFC and the other forums, Linenoise...this place is a wealth of information. And some real knowing folks too. Keep operating under the KISS philosphy. Learn to build your soil and letting the plant tell you what it wants/needs. On a getting a little dig in on ya front....man...go read the infirmary...you got nute burn and overwatering down, there a whole bunch of other goodies you can inflect on your plants just waiting for you to explore...welcome to the wonderful world of growing.

 

[Guest]

whats up bros; whats the difference between hydrated lime and the dolomite i hear u speak of and if u have the liquid form of hydrated how do u apply it during the different stages of growth veg and flower? thanx 4 the words of wisdom and knowledge bros.

 

[Pimpslapped]

whats up bros; whats the difference between hydrated lime and the dolomite i hear u speak of and if u have the liquid form of hydrated how do u apply it during the different stages of growth veg and flower? thanx 4 the words of wisdom and knowledge bros.

Hydrated lime=VERY fast acting, doesn't hang around too long in the soil (to the best of my knowledge). It is pretty low on Mag for growing cannabis from what I understand and can cause burning issues? (Not sure if problems arise from burning or from high Ca causing lockout.. need to read up on things again, I'm forgetting little used info)

Dolomite lime=Slower acting, good for long term use in soil (4months+ is fine) and harder to burn plants, tends to have sufficient cal/mag for most needs.

 

[Linenoise]

Keep reading in the OFC and the other forums, Linenoise...this place is a wealth of information. And some real knowing folks too. Keep operating under the KISS philosphy. Learn to build your soil and letting the plant tell you what it wants/needs. On a getting a little dig in on ya front....man...go read the infirmary...you got nute burn and overwatering down, there a whole bunch of other goodies you can inflect on your plants just waiting for you to explore...welcome to the wonderful world of growing.

Totally agree. I've spent most of my freetime reading up. I am pretty sure it would take a year of solid reading just to read everything on here.

I was wondering if someone could clear something up for me. Regarding Recipe #1 (the plant food, not the soiless mix) it says:
Mix all the dry ferts into the soiless mix well and wet it,but don't soak it with Liquid Karma and water @ 1 tbs./gal. Stir and mix it a few times a week for a week or two so the bacteria can get oxygen and break down the bone meal and make it available. And don't let the mix dry out, keep it moist and add water as needed. It'll also have time to get the humic acids in the Liquid Karma going and the dolomite lime will be better able to adjust the pH of a peat based mixture too.

I guess the wording of the type in bold is weird to me, but I am guessing this means to indeed use Liquid Karma in the water, but only lightly water the soiless mix?

Then it says to 'keep it moist and add water as needed.' Should I only use water on those or should I maintain the liquid Karma mix?

Thanks again for your help.

 

[Pimpslapped]

Hiya Linenoise.

By my understanding, a light watering (Get the soil moist but not soaked) is indeed what is called for. After the initial watering, it's not necessary to feed with LK for the rest of the 'cooking' period, though I'm sure some do and some don't. The first watering should give the soil a good boost of critters, then you just want to keep them nice and comfy so they can settle in.