ORGANIC VS INORGANIC. The great debate.

[mushroombrew]

I posted evidence that shows why ionic fertilizers mute or homogenize chemovar expression and not one comment

people are delusional enough that they can't see linked or nested causation as it occurs in nature

many terps are cued by the plant to be produced when other variables are less than optimal, for example cues like lower nitrogen because it is a payload of pests and pathogens

the MYTH of maximum ionic nutrition means maximum chemovar expression is simply that, a MYTH

Here is my comment. in two species in the study there was no difference. Read it again.

Are we to speculate Cannabis performs the same as a woody sap bearing species?

" Unlike P. halepensis, soil nutrients were not involved in terpene variation in calcareous and siliceous soils of these two shrub species" (The rosemary and Cistus)

 

[mushroombrew]

I would love someone to try that with Cannabis.

 

[bbgun80]

Kai aka KiE works

Kai aka KiE works

Keep it easy method of only applying-
2parts 1-calmag(any kind of calmag)
1-(any organic nutrient)OMRI or don't bother

Its like the best OF both WORLDs

 

[Weird]

Here is my comment. in two species in the study there was no difference. Read it again.

Are we to speculate Cannabis performs the same as a woody sap bearing species?

" Unlike P. halepensis, soil nutrients were not involved in terpene variation in calcareous and siliceous soils of these two shrub species" (The rosemary and Cistus)

your not going to find testing on cannabis yet due to prohibition

It simply illustrates that secondary metabolites are not produced in direct correlation to nutrient availability. It opens discussion to the various theories regarding the environmental cues and their cause and effect on plants grown for their secondary metabolites

remember the cannabis has a far greater array of secondaries and variation among strains, adaptive mechanisms which if the right conditions do not exist they won't express

you feed max available nutrition you force a very specific type of expression which becomes homogeneous across cultivars compared to their expression in living soil food web


as promised tip of the ice berg

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ffj.2730090307/abstract
Effects of planting time and mineral fertilization on peppermint (mentha x piperita l.) essential oil composition and its biological activity

AbstractEssential oil samples of Mentha x piperita L. (peppermint) were analysed by GC–MS and assayed for their antibacterial, antifungal and antioxidant activities. The steam-distilled oil samples were obtained from autumn and spring planted crops which were treated with nitrogen and phosphorus fertilizers at different rates. The oil samples from spring planted crops had a significantly higher menthol and lower terpinen-4-ol concentrations than those from autumn planted crops. Mineral fertilization seemed to increase the content of menthol in the oil, and decreased that of menthone and β-caryophyllene. The oil samples showed a different degree of inhibition against the twenty-five microorganisms tested. Some differences were found between the oil samples from autumn and spring planted crops, the former being more active against some microorganisms, and the oil samples from fertilized peppermint seemed to be, on the whole, slightly more effective. Peppermint oil exhibited a marked antifungal activity against Aspergillus niger.

 

[Weird]

People still underestimate the power of E in G + E = P and the difference in expression

how you feed matters, ratios matter, chemistry matters, microbiology matters, genetic relativity and as well as the dynamic environmental cues they have adapted to.

 

[Weird]

https://hortorumcultus.actapol.net/pub/12_5_3.pdf

DOES MINERAL FERTILIZATION MODIFY ESSENTIAL OIL CONTENT AND CHEMICAL
COMPOSITION IN MEDICINAL PLANTS?

[FONT=&quot]Abstract[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Essential oils are the main active components of many essential oil raw materials. This is the most numerous group of medicinal raw materials, which has a big tradition and still a wide application in therapeutics. Oil raw materials are obtained from natural stands and from crops. Cultivation method, fertilization, irrigation, date of harvest of plant material can significantly modify both the content and composition of essential oil. Nutrients applied in the form of mineral and organic fertilization are supplied to plants by root and foliar application. Foliar nitrogen application increases essential oil content in some plants and affects essential oil composition. Moreover, essential oil content and yield are modified by the rate of applied nitrogen. Higher nitrogen application increases methyl chavicol concentration and decreases the percentage of linalool in the volatile oil of some aromatic plant species. In the cultivation of some aromatic plants, a higher amount of potassium contributes to an increase in essential oil content and in the percentage of 1,8-cineole, linalool, eugenol, and Ȗ-cadinene in the oil. Other nutrients available in the nutritional environment of plants are also capable of changing essential oil yield and composition. Likewise biofertilization, balanced mineral fertilization of aromatic plants is an important cultivation factor determining essential oil quantity and quality. [/FONT]

https://scihub.org/ABJNA/PDF/2011/4/ABJNA-2-4-652-660.pdf

Partial substitution of mineral nitrogen fertilizer by bio-fertilizer on(Anethum graveolensL.) plant

[FONT=&quot]ABSTRACT[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A field experiment was conducted at the Experimental Farm of the Pharmaceutical Department, Agriculture college, Giza, Egypt to study the effect of partial substitution of mineral nitrogen fertilizer by biofertilizer and their effects on the growth, yield and chemical constituents of dill plant [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]during the two successive seasons of 2007/2008 and 2008/2009. Because of the great importance of volatile oil, its composition was also investigated in this study. Five strains of bacteria (1- Azotobacter chroococcum, 2- [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Azospirillum lipoferum, 3- Bacillus polymyxa, 4- Bacillus megatheriumand 5- Pseudomonas fluorescens) were mixed in equal parts and used as [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]biofertilizer in this experiment. The biofertilizer treatment was applied alone or in combination with 1/3, 2/3 or full recommended dose of mineral nitrogen fertilizer. The results indicated that applying biofertilizer treatment alone or in combination with chemical N fertilizer increased the growth, yield and chemical constituents of dill plant compared to the untreated control. The highest values of vegetative growth, oil yield, chlorophyll content and NPK percentages were recorded by the treatment of bio-fertilizer plus two third of recommended dose of nitrogen fertilizer. The lowest values in this respect were obtained by control plants during two seasons. The GC analysis of volatile oil indicated that the main components were carvone, limonene and apiol. These components were affected by biofertilization and chemical N treatments. Partial [/FONT][FONT=&quot]substitution of mineral nitrogen fertilizer by bio-fertilizer was recommended to increase the yield as well as the quality of dill plant. By applying the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]treatment of bio-fertilizer plus two third of recommended dose of nitrogen fertilizer we can save the quantity of N chemical fertilizer used and obtain high quality product. The results of thisstudy gave also the possibility of shifting toward clean agriculture. [/FONT]

 

[mushroombrew]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3474957/

 

[mushroombrew]

@ Wierd I think this goes along the lines of your theory about secondary metabolites not directly correlating to primary.

"Muzika and Pregitzer 1992 [32] stated that soil nitrogen availability has little to no effect on terpenoid storage since, unlike phenolic compounds, terpenoids are not synthesized through the shikimic acid pathway as aromatic amino acids. As a result, their storage does not rely on competition for nitrogen resources, a hypothesis that has been supported by the existence of correlations between phenolic compound and aromatic amino acid concentrations"

 

[mushroombrew]

"Kandeel et al. [37] focused on the effect of inorganic and organic nitrogen fertilizers and their combinations on yield and oil composition of basil. They showed that when combined, nitrogen supply increased oil yield (mainly composed by terpenoid-like compounds) compared to plants fertilized with inorganic nitrogen alone. The mixture of inorganic and organic nitrogen also increased or decreased the concentration of different BVOCs contained within the essential oil. Other authors [38] reported a high essential oil yield in Foeniculum vulgare Mill. when using a mixture of 50% of the recommended dosage of NPK and a biofertilizer (inoculation of Azotobacter chroococcum, Azospirillum liboferum, and Bacillus megatherium). A low yield was obtained when only 50 % of the inorganic fertilizer was applied without inoculation. This is due to some free-living nitrogen-fixing bacteria into the soil presenting the ability to fix nitrogen and release phytohormones similar to gibberellic acid and indole acetic acid, which stimulate plant growth, nutrient absorption and photosynthesis"

 

[Yodaweed]

Synthetic fertilizers are terrible for the environment. Fertilizer run off from farms is a serious issue, please keep our planet alive and green, grow organic.

 

[Coughie]

This is an interesting thread for several reasons (not all of which, i mention)..

Firstly, we all come from different educational backgrounds - and it shows! You can tell the High Times -taught from the college-taught. With that in hand, some of these responses, aren't worth responding to. Others deserve a standing ovation.

Secondly, the way that the OP is structured, the way that the question is asked - it sounds like the focus is only on the nutrients as the plant uses them, and not so much about where they come from.

Sure, its been designated that they're either from organic or inorganic sources, but beyond that, the question doesn't seem to care where the nutrients come from.

Which is fine.

And to that extent, I'm not sure that it matters. Compounds are compounds, molecules are molecules, and atoms are atoms - by the time you've stripped things down that far, you've basically removed everything that has to do with organic or inorganic anyway. So if you're talking about which does the plant prefer to absorb into its roots or through its leaf tissues - organic or inorganic - I'm not sure the plant can tell the difference.


But if we step outside of that very small box, and look at a bigger picture, it starts to matter. It starts to matter whether you're using organic or inorganic practices. Why? Because it matters, who's in control. The gardener or the plant?

The kicker for the organic vs inorganic conversation is in the practices, not the molecules and compounds. Both can grow good cannabis, but one practice is sustainable and the other is not. One practice allows the plant to be a plant, and be in control, while the other practice allows man to act like a god, and the plant is a mere subject.

One practice allows for symbiosis, everything mutually benefiting from the situation, while the other is more inline with making a small child sit at the dinner table until they clear their plate. One practice can be seen being used on anything and everything man has ever grown or consumed, while the other, in comparison, is only used on a handful of crops.

It's like the difference between an All You Can Eat Buffet, and an IV. At the buffet, you get up from the table, get a plate, pick what you want and eat at your own pace. When you're in the hospital, they stick you with an IV and they push whatever they feel is necessary, through a plastic bag hanging on a metal hook, and it goes, generally, into your arm. Those two examples are from the perspective of wearing the plants 'shoes'. You only have a say, in one of those two situations.

I know this thread is about the very small box that has been outlined, but its important, at least from my angle, to acknowledge the bigger picture.

To be a gardener, is to be responsible. By the time the plant absorbs the nutrients, the nutrients are chemical compounds or molecules that have pretty much lost the identifying traits that tell you whether its from organic or inorganic sources - but is the plant absorbing it because it wants it or because you're force-feeding it? To me, its irresponsible to consider the differences between organic and inorganic sources without also considering the attitude with which the feeding is taking place. Is it natural, or hostile?

Salts are salts.
But force-feeding a plant is an attempt by man to act like a god, as well.

 

[mushroombrew]

Synthetic fertilizers are terrible for the environment. Fertilizer run off from farms is a serious issue, please keep our planet alive and green, grow organic.

Organic ferts run off too. I have seen rivers destroyed by excessive manure spreading to close to watersheds.

N is N algae dosent care.

 

[mushroombrew]

Nice post @coughie! You seem calm and much less mentally ill than the rest of us! LOL

 

[Yodaweed]

Organic ferts run off too. I have seen rivers destroyed by excessive manure spreading to close to watersheds.

N is N algae dosent care.

There's rivers and land in California that is completely destroyed from synthetic fertilizer run off, it's one of the worst types of run off that can occur, i personally do not use manure, there are better ways to grow organic and manure is nearly the worst way to grow organically, it's just cheap and the majority of people using it don't even get quality manure. However synthetic fertilizers permanently damage the land they are used on, it takes years for the microbial population to regrow and the salts that are used not only kill them but they destroy the land and contaminate the water supply, read this

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/8214501/ns/us_news-environment/t/farm-runoff-worse-thought-study-says/

Also using synthetic fertilizers destroys your soil so you gotta keep refreshing the soil, it kills the life of the soil, and it's one of the main reasons why plants grow in non-organic medium lack antioxidants , flavonoids and cartegens compared to organically grown plants. It also costs MUCH more to grow with synthetics and the results are sub par.

https://www.redbookmag.com/body/healthy-eating/a2016/truth-about-organic-foods/

"Is buying organic better for the environment?

Organic farming reduces pollutants in groundwater and creates richer soil that aids plant growth while reducing erosion, according to the Organic Trade Association. It also decreases pesticides that can end up in your drinking glass; in some cities, pesticides in tap water have been measured at unsafe levels for weeks at a time, according to an analysis performed by the Environmental Working Group (EWG). (To find out about the safety of your tap water, visit the EWG website at ewg.org/tapwater/yourwater.) Plus, organic farming used 50 percent less energy than conventional farming methods in one 15-year study."


Finally organic food and cannabis contains less pesticides, fungicides and all varieties of nasty things you do not want in your body or your lungs, it also promotes the plants to develop a proper immune system so they can fight those off, when you grow synthetic your plants will be treated with harmful pesticides and not by natural processes.

 

[meizzwang]

People still underestimate the power of E in G + E = P and the difference in expression

how you feed matters, ratios matter, chemistry matters, microbiology matters, genetic relativity and as well as the dynamic environmental cues they have adapted to.

Inorganic ferts. tend to have a higher concentation of NPK, which means it's hard to get the optimal ratios delivered to the root zone for optimal quality (not quantity). This is probably one of the many reasons why people often times perceive the end product as less flavorful or "chronic" compared to the same clone organically grown.

 

[CaliNewby]

for my veggies i stick to organic, for my babies i go inorganic, has been going well so far. maybe next year i'll go organic. anybody any recommendation on organic liquids for outdoor?

 

[meizzwang]

Synthetic fertilizers are terrible for the environment. Fertilizer run off from farms is a serious issue, please keep our planet alive and green, grow organic.

it's mostly the high energy input of making synthetic fertilizers that makes them less sustainable compared to organics.

 

[mushroombrew]

Inorganic ferts. tend to have a higher concentation of NPK, which means it's hard to get the optimal ratios delivered to the root zone for optimal quality (not quantity). This is probably one of the many reasons why people often times perceive the end product as less flavorful or "chronic" compared to the same clone organically grown.

They are more concentrated yes. You just use less. Well hopefully.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Inorganic ferts. tend to have a higher concentation of NPK, which means it's hard to get the optimal ratios delivered to the root zone for optimal quality (not quantity). This is probably one of the many reasons why people often times perceive the end product as less flavorful or "chronic" compared to the same clone organically grown.

This has nothing to do with the 'ferts' being inorganic. This has everything to do with how the grower applies what they're using. It's actually stupid simple for me to give the plant only what it needs. When I'm specifically mixing what it needs.

(edit: Coughie, your argument makes perfect sense outdoor. I look forward to working with organics outdoor. )

 

[meizzwang]

This has nothing to do with the 'ferts' being inorganic. This has everything to do with how the grower applies what they're using. It's actually stupid simple for me to give the plant only what it needs. When I'm specifically mixing what it needs.

(edit: Coughie, your argument makes perfect sense outdoor. I look forward to working with organics outdoor. )

regarding optimizing quality, I meant to say it's harder to deliver the optimal concentration of ferts using inorganic versus organic. Organic is much lighter and less concentrated, so there's more room for error compared to using inorganic in general. Of course there's always exceptions, but that should clarify the concept.