Organic Growing from a Microbial Perspective

[jaykush]

Of course they are mycorhizzal but note; ecto or endo

encapsulating or entering

both, im not trying to argue with you or anything lol.

 

[organick]

i don't have nuff posts to send PM to microbeman. So here goes:
Shout out to microbeman, Info Supreme.
Dig, in my own little smoked out head I see: The rybosome (area of microheard-mutrient exchange) a vast (on a microbe level) arrea of intence and controled life with harvesting. Like a microbe ranch or dairy farm: feed the heard (the plant acts as ranch manager) and harvest the biowealth, with CT a grower sends them exra feed for the micro-heard.
muchos grasias totals.

 

[Dignan]

But most compost teas have very little in the way of nutrients. That's kind of what I'm getting at... it sounds to me like regardless of what you send down into the soil (either before the plants roots spread through the soil or after the plant is established), the plant is only going to harvest from the soil what it needs at any one point in time, so as long as there isn't a defecit of any mineral/micronutrient/etc., the ratio of what you add to your soil isn't as important as many believe it to be.

I've always wondered why I get so frustrated with my soil biology, organic gardening and small-scale farming books that I pore over ... because they never point out exactly which nutrients a particular plant needs, from which fertilizers or in which ratios. I'm used to having that information handed to me by cannabis growers online. But I'm starting to realize finally the scope of the truth in the idea that the non-cannabis growing community isn't as hung up on consumerism as cannabis growers are and that wonderfully healthy plants with great yields of quality fruits and flowers can be had on a soil with far less bells-n-whistles mixed into it.

Most non-cannabis soil building advice goes something like: add manure, add compost, add rock phosphates and greensand, add kelp meal... you're done. And it leaves cannabis growers going, "C'mon c'mon... anything else I can add? How about this VooDoo Blood Sweetness product my grow shop has?"

 

[Microbeman]

both, im not trying to argue with you or anything lol.

me neither; just pointing out terminology in case you missed it

 

[sophisto]

But most compost teas have very little in the way of nutrients. That's kind of what I'm getting at... it sounds to me like regardless of what you send down into the soil (either before the plants roots spread through the soil or after the plant is established), the plant is only going to harvest from the soil what it needs at any one point in time, so as long as there isn't a defecit of any mineral/micronutrient/etc., the ratio of what you add to your soil isn't as important as many believe it to be.

I've always wondered why I get so frustrated with my soil biology, organic gardening and small-scale farming books that I pore over ... because they never point out exactly which nutrients a particular plant needs, from which fertilizers or in which ratios. I'm used to having that information handed to me by cannabis growers online. But I'm starting to realize finally the scope of the truth in the idea that the non-cannabis growing community isn't as hung up on consumerism as cannabis growers are and that wonderfully healthy plants with great yields of quality fruits and flowers can be had on a soil with far less bells-n-whistles mixed into it.

Most non-cannabis soil building advice goes something like: add manure, add compost, add rock phosphates and greensand, add kelp meal... you're done. And it leaves cannabis growers going, "C'mon c'mon... anything else I can add? How about this VooDoo Blood Sweetness product my grow shop has?"

I'm finally catching on to this one too...

This current grow of mine is completely experimental...I have three different mixes and 5 different amendments in different ratios...Although I cheated a bit because instead of buying 20 boxes or bags of dry ferts and mixing them on my own I bought some Dr Earth complete ferts..... and mixed in different ratios. www.drearth.net

Thus far the 3 mixes with a simple 4-4-4 rating with added sul-po-mag (1/4 dose) are standing out clearly as the victors thus far....One of the mixes failed completely as I did adopt the more is better theory on that particular one..I quickly switched to the 4-4-4 it fell behind a bit from the others but it's back on course... Suprisingly the one with the 5-7-3 topdressed with a 1/2 dose of 4-10-7 is way behind the 4-4-4..This blew my mind..I thought for sure she would be a big ladie, I was wrong......again...

I am feeding only water with 3/4 strength Liqiud Karma. I have also implemented 3 teas only...1st tea is mostly bacterial ( mid veg) 2nd tea is bacterial dominant/fungal ( as described in Elaine Ingham's compost tea brewing manual) 3rd tea is fungal dominant/bacterial. I havent made it to the third tea yet but thus far I am really impressed with my more simplistic approach.....Best grow ever ( I am known by my buddies for saying this every time) .....I guess it means I am making progress?? Or tooting my own horn??....LOL

 

[sophisto]

True that fungal dominant soils result in a lower pH but the reason why the N is less available is the reduction in the bacteria/archaea which mineralize N through predation as described previously. This is most likely a function of the plant. e.g. Plant sucks up remaining N + cuts off carbon bacterial feed = less bacteria = lowering of pH = increased fungal growth = further lowering of pH(?)

It may be that the fungal species occurring in compost and vermicompost assist with the cycling of phosphorus. This is something I am exploring as time and money permit, however it appears from research that I have read that it is the mycorrhizal fungi species which contribute to phorphorus delivery and these do not grow in compost nor compost tea (to the best of my knowledge). If you have a microscope, you can do some trials and see if there is benefit.

Can you reference the articles you have read on this subject? I'd be interested in reading what species of fungi are involved.

Salutations,
Tim

Most of the information is pooled her at Ic mag in some of the organic collective and compost tea sticky's....I will need time to track them down...I will however....

Otherwise I can tell you that ( I dont have a page number at the moment) I read something interesting about this subject in Jeff's book " Teaming with microbes".... BEing as though you have corrected him on the peat moss issue perhaps it is another correction that needs to be done?????

I want to hear more about this subject, wheres some of IC's top tea brewing gurus at????? They certainly can give more info on this subject than I can...



Ok as promised I have pulled up 4 threads that point us in the direction of where I was going with my first comment in which you replied to me with the above:

Enter these titles in the search feature to check them out.

- flowering, fungus, fish emulsion
- fungal or bacterial tea for bloom
- organic tea party with rev
- Fungal vs Bacterial dominant tea

Sorry I dont have the links..The title will get us there though...

Looking forward to your comments on this....Thanks

 

[Microbeman]

Sorry. When I tried inputting those phrases into the search function I got multiple threads.

What I'd be interested in reading is peer reviewed articles such as those I referenced at the bottom of my monologue
OR personal decently run experiments.

I'll see if I can locate what it is in Jeff & Wayne's book it is you are referencing.

To be sure; I'm not saying that fungal hyphae grown in CT does not contribute to phosphorus uptake. I just have not seen direct evidence of it. It may be that it has an indirect effect in conjunction with endo mycorrhizal species.

I do have on file a research paper from Italy(?) where every species of fungi found in 1/ an example of thermophilic compost and 2/ an example of vermicompost, were isolated and identified. This would be a starting point. To ascertain if there are any species specific soil/plant function studies done on each one. Big job.

Salutations,
Tim

 

[MrFista]

I'll find Bongsongs old thread for you and bump it up top. It makes a lot of sense though he was only just learning about m. fungi at the time.

Bongsong theorised that m. fungi require direct feeding as opposed to repeated innoculation. The mycelium growth in diameter is approximately the same regardless of nutrient input, the density is what counts. The richer the soil, the more hyphal density.

so look for the thread it's a great read if nothing else, bumped up top within minutes of my posting this....

Did I lose you on the oceanic viral database tim?

Scientists are busy recording the DNA sequences from an inexaustible supply - the ocean. Each cup of sea water contains millions of viral DNA blueprints designs.

By virus I am talking the nature of the DNA, the ability to replicate themselves given the correct conditions.

So you add a cup of seawater to a small plot. Millions of potential types of bacteria are present in the DNA. Each niche is potentially filled faster. Conditions themselves should cull out bacteria not suited to the conditions.

That's the basic premise....

 

[sophisto]

I am waiting for my computer genius buddy to help me out so I can post the links...Right now I can only view the address to the site I am on not the adresses of certain posts....

I'll be back...

In the mean time basically what you are advising is to make a healthy soil and let the plant do the rest...That changing the dominance of the soil from bacterial to fungal is most likely not the most efficient route. So a good Bacterial/Fungal soil will be able to deliver all that is necessary to the plant?

What type of soil mix do you use personally??? JUst out of curiosity..

Also I would be very open to suggestions on reading material....

 

[Microbeman]

"In the mean time basically what you are advising is to make a healthy soil and let the plant do the rest...That changing the dominance of the soil from bacterial to fungal is most likely not the most efficient route. So a good Bacterial/Fungal soil will be able to deliver all that is necessary to the plant?"

What I suggested was a number of things; organic matter (compost), mycorrhizal spores, microbial foodstocks such as diluted fish hydrolysate and molasses and kelp meal, alfalfa meal and rock phosphate and other clay and rock powders, possibly companion mushrooms, possibly compost tea, minimal soil disruption. If your current process is working for you to your satisfaction then stick to it. If not then try a new system gradually or try several methods and see what works best for you.

Soil with organic matter and some of the mentioned foodstocks should have much more than bacteria & fungi. There should also be flagellates, amoebae, ciliates,(<collectively protozoa), nematodes as well as arthropods and rotifers to some extent. If there are no microorganisms to consume the bacteria/archaea there is a possibility of a lot of the N becoming locked up in the bacteria/archaea. One question I have yet to answer; Is there a critical mass of soil necessary for it to support a large consortia of biota so as to be a living soil or entity? It appearred that my 9 cu. ft. bins were sufficient but I don't know how to extrapolate that to smaller containers.

"What type of soil mix do you use personally??? JUst out of curiosity.."

Hmmm. Soil mix. As pointed out we re-use our soil continuously, adding organic matter and microbial amendments as we age. However, in reference to the bins, (which have now been emptied into the greenhouse) we used some silty loamy bottomland soil, mixed in about 1/3rd sphagnum peat, 10 to 15% rich vermicompost, about 2 to 4 cups rock phosphate, some kelp meal & alfalfa meal (cheap kind ya feed to horses). This is not that different than what we used in our raised beds and in the greenhouse.

This does not mean this is some great mix or anything but its fairly plain and cheap and it works for us.

 

[Microbeman]

I'll find Bongsongs old thread for you and bump it up top. It makes a lot of sense though he was only just learning about m. fungi at the time.

Bongsong theorised that m. fungi require direct feeding as opposed to repeated innoculation. The mycelium growth in diameter is approximately the same regardless of nutrient input, the density is what counts. The richer the soil, the more hyphal density.

so look for the thread it's a great read if nothing else, bumped up top within minutes of my posting this....

Did I lose you on the oceanic viral database tim?

Scientists are busy recording the DNA sequences from an inexaustible supply - the ocean. Each cup of sea water contains millions of viral DNA blueprints designs.

By virus I am talking the nature of the DNA, the ability to replicate themselves given the correct conditions.

So you add a cup of seawater to a small plot. Millions of potential types of bacteria are present in the DNA. Each niche is potentially filled faster. Conditions themselves should cull out bacteria not suited to the conditions.

That's the basic premise....

Vigdis Torsvik is at one of the fronts of this research and is actually the scientist who suggested the direct count (observation) method for soil microbes years ago.

http://www.geobio.uib.no/Default.aspx?pageid=747

but that's kinda off topic.

 

[Dignan]

However, in reference to the bins, (which have now been emptied into the greenhouse) we used some silty loamy bottomland soil, mixed in about 1/3rd sphagnum peat, 10 to 15% rich vermicompost, about 2 to 4 cups rock phosphate, some kelp meal & alfalfa meal (cheap kind ya feed to horses). This is not that different than what we used in our raised beds and in the greenhouse.

This does not mean this is some great mix or anything but its fairly plain and cheap and it works for us.

The most interesting thing you mentioned here IMO is that you are bringing soil from the outdoors to the indoors. Many people seem to think outdoor soil must be sterilized before being brought indoors.

Maybe I've been lucky, but I've never had an infestation of any kind indoors (knock knock knock on wood!) and I usually recycle my outdoor planters soil each year. It goes into one huge bin and I will later use it indoors or outdoors, either one.

 

[MrFista]

Quote Tim

"Is there a critical mass for a soil to reach maturity" - surely there is and it's a lot smaller than one would first think.

I scale down eco-systems for a living. I can't directly answer your question regarding how much soil but will say it can be done (fully functioning mature ecosystem) including a waterbody in less that 1 cubic metre.

On the viral DNA - it is kind of off topic. I brought it up as this topic covers most of organics. In the future our understanding of soil food webs will also incorporate DNA and how to encourage bacterial diversity with the right materials for the DNA to pursue the correct course for your garden.

The practise of loading viral DNA sequences and bacterial 'blanks' to soil is not so far away. Reckon I'll see it in my lifetime even if it is only being experimented in labs.

We try to add variety in bottles now - 25 varieties of fungi!

Soon it will be - 25 000 000 DNA codes!

 

[JackTheGrower]

I enjoyed the post.

I enjoyed the post.

Microbeman wrote:.

“In my opinion manipulation of the pH is not a wise practice in natural growing unless dramatic acidity or alkalinity are measured.”

That is a wise statement. As long as we do not add extreme substances like chemical fertilizers the soil food web can adapt.

Common organic sense is assumed here. Like don't pile wood ashes around the base of a plant and the ilk.

Microbeman wrote:.
“To come to a rudimentary understanding of how organic or natural growing really works”

Wonderful structure. I hope to adopt your presentation clarity style the next time I host a thread. We can all benefit from Microbeman's style of writing.


Microbeman wrote:.
“Rock phosphate in the compost adds a long lasting source of phosphorus for microbes to draw from.”

I agree with this in that a small batch of compost made with premium ingredients is a wonderful top dressing.
I don't spare expense when I make a batch for top dressing.

Microbeman wrote:.
“If you are growing in smaller containers it is a good idea to provide a high volume of quality compost and or vermicompost at the onset. “

Being a “planter bed” style indoor grower I agree with this. In fact there is nothing wrong with composted materials as the start of any planter bed or container grow.
I have maintained a soil for over 7 years now.
I “compost” in it every year and even grew a cover crop in it.
So it's a mix of compost and composting new materials in an old ( as the Brits have corrected me ) Organic growing medium.
Soil, they argue, is from millions of years of events and is not one thing. LOL


Over all great post and wonderful thread.


Jack

 

[MrFista]

Sorry to take off on a tangent in your thread Tim.

My excuse is that I follow your first post religiously and the resulting weed often leaves me in outer space.

The questions concerning why specific nutritional shortcomings are 'overcome' in many organic mediums will be answered by observing the actions of common bacterial strains diversifying via DNA exchange to 'fill the niches' of nutrition/energy cycles.

Back on the planet now, promise.

 

[Microbeman]

MrFista; No worries but one point is that you misquoted me; I said; "Is there a critical mass of soil necessary for it to support a large consortia of biota so as to be a living soil or entity?" not "Is there a critical mass for a soil to reach maturity"

 

[Microbeman]

Being a “planter bed” style indoor grower I agree with this. In fact there is nothing wrong with composted materials as the start of any planter bed or container grow.
I have maintained a soil for over 7 years now.

Jack, Good for you. More of this is needed.

Tim

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Tim

Back to your comments about adding rock phosphate to a worm bin. I've been feeding a glacial rock dust product (Gaia Green) to my worm bins unsure that I am actually accomplishing much for my efforts. Any thoughts on this?

At one of the nursery supply houses I found this organic fish fertilizer Hi-Crop which is manufactured up in Washington state, i.e. local product. I bought a 5-gallon jug for $54.00 so the price is definitely right. In case you're interested.

Thanks for any input on the worm bin diet deal.

CC

 

[Microbeman]

Tim

Back to your comments about adding rock phosphate to a worm bin. I've been feeding a glacial rock dust product (Gaia Green) to my worm bins unsure that I am actually accomplishing much for my efforts. Any thoughts on this?

At one of the nursery supply houses I found this organic fish fertilizer Hi-Crop which is manufactured up in Washington state, i.e. local product. I bought a 5-gallon jug for $54.00 so the price is definitely right. In case you're interested.

Thanks for any input on the worm bin diet deal.

CC

My comment on the rock phosphate was intended for thermophilic composting. Sorry for not being clearer. Worms do use grit but they can get it from just about anything. Like you I'm unsure whether placing rock powders in worm bins is of any value.

I have not checked out Hi Crop but Organic Gem is good quality. I get fish hydrolysate in BC for $40 per 5 gallons.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

My comment on the rock phosphate was intended for thermophilic composting. Sorry for not being clearer. Worms do use grit but they can get it from just about anything. Like you I'm unsure whether placing rock powders in worm bins is of any value.

I have not checked out Hi Crop but Organic Gem is good quality. I get fish hydrolysate in BC for $40 per 5 gallons.

Tim

Thanks for the worm vs. thermophilic explanation.

RE: Organic Gem

The only place that I've been able to find that product locally is at the Soil Foundation folks in Corvallis, OR. I buy their Alaska Humus (I believe it's the 'Denali Gold' brand specifically) and they carry the Organic Gem product - but it's $29.50 per gallon - obviously you're getting a FAR better price that we do down here in Oregon.

To say the least.

Thanks again for taking the time to answer my question.

CC