no more males?

[vicious bee]

I think it depends on what your trying to do. I believe the males throw in more of a wild card and some Very special male might give you the Holy Grail. Most of us don't have the space to grow thousands of plants to find the Holy Grail and the enemy of the best is good enough. Breeding with females is good enough.
I did read just a couple of days ago, wish I could remember where, that the male has larger chromosomes and carries more information. Maybe that extra information is important. Maybe not.

 

[Mr. Stinky]

Thankfully, logic dictates that the potency of a male plant ITSELF isn’t very important, as we aren’t interested in growing males for marijuana production. The value of a male lies entirely in the traits he consistently passes on to his daughters. Therefore it’s unnecessary to identify the one male amongst a group of potential pollen donors with the greatest potency. It’s far more logical to evaluate the female progeny of each male to define the potency of each male in the group.

so why bother with him past this point? why continue on with all the extra work once a suitable male has been found to produce good offspring? keep him in storage, and proceed with selecting your breeding populations from the females in the stock. we can see with our own eyes the traits we are seeking. doesnt that make so much more sense in reality than working with an unknown quantity over and over throughout the process?

Male cannabis individuals may be graded for quality by a controlled pollination of IDENTICAL female clones (one for each pollen donor). This isolates the influence of the male by holding CONSTANT the influence of the female on each cross. The seeds resulting from each clone are then grown and the progeny is graded to determine which of the crosses was the most successful. When the group with the most desirable female progeny is identified, the responsible male has been identified as the most valuable.

but the most valuable female is simple to identify. she can be grown and forced just as easily as a male can be grown. but the male is completely worthless to us in the big picture. he holds no genetic miracle, nor does he hold any traits that cannot be found directly in his sisters. those sisters can produce seeds just as he can, without genetic bottlenecking or any other detriment, while showing us directly what traits she is passing on. (except for her recessives, but with the male we are working with ALL recessive traits in the sense that we cannot see them directly)

Males can be kept in the vegetative state exactly like female “mother plants”, except that we should call them “dads” of course. Clones from the favored male can be flowered as needed along with the breeding female(s) when seeds are desired.

Due to the clandestine nature of marijuana growing, in most cases there will only be about 10 males to be evaluated after culling all those with directly observable defects. Breeding with larger populations is always preferable, as genetics is a statistical "game".

Commercial breeders would clearly benefit from the development of a reliable method of identifying males with the greatest potential for passing on high potency genes. Perhaps someone will do the necessary research someday, but by following the above method, growers can accurately pin-point the ONE male in their small group which is the most potent...in the only meaningful sense of “male potency”.

i agree with all this. but it just makes me question the process further. i cant find a use for the male. we desire the "fruit" and he doesnt provide it. not in MJ, not in tomatoes. in fact, he is completely gone in tomatoes and many other plants. they are all the better for it. im not suggesting we all toss out our males. the male provides us with only 1 attribute...producing more males. there are millions of males out there of all kinds, and theres no way we would ever degrade the total gene pool by removing him from our small breeding schedules. at any time, another male can be re-introduced, and the whole mess can be run again. im not a believer in "preserving the purity", as there really is no such thing here. a seed line of a single genotype is just not feasable, probably not possible. so since we will be ever outcrossing, at least to like "strains", and always working with a large pool of traits, i see no need for the male. even if our intention is to keep our seed line pure with no outcrossing planned, there still is no good arguement for using a male. in fact, it would seem even more useful to remove him from the process. a group of 100 or so females could be openpollinated by switching a large group of the best (not something we can do with males) and keeping seed from all the best females in the group. some will be s1's, but theres no issue with that since the following generation will be pollinated with a different plant from the group, re-opening any doors that may have been closed.

yes we would be working with "feminized" seed, but that wouldnt be the goal, only a benefit to the breeding process. im not talking about using the female seed as an advertising point. just from a breeding perspective. i couldnt care less about money...i grow weed for christ sake

 

[whiskeytango420]

As far as potency yes. You are correct it seems.

What about these?
The directly observable & important traits of male cannabis are as follows:

1. Resistance to hermaphrodism
2. Vigor
3. Stature
4. Maturation rate

A few breeders in the past have bred selfing 2 clone onlys together, and there were massive herm issues. I am not saying it cant be done. I am saying to keep breeding true.

He is saying the male is not used for potency if I read this right. Still need all the other.
Again, what will be your methods on BREEDING without a male? Not chucking herm pollen at another girl, where the plants will be more susceptible to herms. I dont mind being wrong man...I jsut wanna see something more than ideas. I have brought what you told me to bring.

Quote:
And I NEVER do the fem thing. Males are responsible for passing on very important traits, intensity of smell being one.
care to post up a reference, mendel? you have absolutely no idea what your talking about

The directly observable & important traits of male cannabis are as follows:

1. Resistance to hermaphrodism
2. Vigor
3. Stature
4. Maturation rate

I came out brash...I apologized, if I ruined the chance at this being anything close to a knowledgeable discussion, Ill cut my losses at being told I know nothing...Cool, I deserved your comments after mine.
But can we go on now and someone tell me how taking males out will still allow true breeding?

good vibes

 

[GreenintheThumb]

MrSoul wasn't what i'd call an expert. I wouldn't even bother tossing his quotes around...

 

[Mr. Stinky]

As far as potency yes. You are correct it seems.

What about these?
The directly observable & important traits of male cannabis are as follows:

1. Resistance to hermaphrodism
2. Vigor
3. Stature
4. Maturation rate

yes but they are also trait in the female.

The attributes of a valuable female are the following (in descending order of importance):

1. Resistance to hermaphrodism
2. Vigor/Yield
3. Potency
4. Flavor
5. Rate of flowering response
6. Resin production
7. Stature
8. Scent
9. Floral structure
10. Floral color

maturation rate is obviously a trait in females. "rate of response" may be the same in his list. point is, oll the traits we are after in a good male, are there in a good female, and we can see em there in her. plus we can smoke her up if we so choose...the male is just compost filler.

A few breeders in the past have bred selfing 2 clone onlys together, and there were massive herm issues. I am not saying it cant be done. I am saying to keep breeding true.

most things you read here and elsewhere on the internet are bullshit that someone else is re-posting from someone else that made it up to feel cool. this is most likely the case. but if it isnt, im sure the regular old laws apply. one of the clone-only's had the intersex trait in its genes. it came to the top of the very shallow gene pool when the cross was made with so very few plants. it could be that the reason it was clone only was due to the large amount of intersexed plants in the line, and when they got a good one with resistance, it was revered. dunno. all i know is that a manually reversed female is NOT a hermie. it will pass on its resistance to intersex to its offspring. every single mj plant has the intersex code written in. the ability to withstand stresses is the only difference in them. that piece of the code can be used to our favor without changing it, so i cant see a reason not to at least explore it its not like we are working with the last 5 beans on the planet...

He is saying the male is not used for potency if I read this right. Still need all the other.
Again, what will be your methods on BREEDING without a male? Not chucking herm pollen at another girl, where the plants will be more susceptible to herms. I dont mind being wrong man...I jsut wanna see something more than ideas. I have brought what you told me to bring.

ideas is all we really have. i dont know of anyone so far who has tried what im proposing. the science behind forcing females is a fairly recent thing. a couple decades old. there is just far too much mis-information a. nd fear in places like this (where the real discussions need to take place for something to ever happen). breeding with females will be no different than working with males. use the best in the group to create the following generations. same thing humans have done for thousands of years. im still working on my GA application. it works well enough, but its not an exact science as some would have you believe. if i have the time this winter, i want to try sts. but i want to get GA down first.

I came out brash...I apologized, if I ruined the chance at this being anything close to a knowledgeable discussion, Ill cut my losses at being told I know nothing...Cool, I deserved your comments after mine.
But can we go on now and someone tell me how taking males out will still allow true breeding?

good vibes

we sure can glad you decided to take my not-so-constructive critisicm in a positive way.
depends on what you define "true breeding" as. if you require a male, then no, we wont be doing that. but if you define "true" breeding as a way to make seeds that carry on all the best traits of the parents without any negative effects or genetic deficiencies, regardless of the offsprings sex, then thats what i want to do. all the males provide is pollen. we can get pollen from females, and actually know we are using a good parent plant. the female needs nothing from the male. look at how most other flowering pllants work. they dont use a "male" plant. they are all females and they pollinate themselves. there is no male tomatoe plant. no male sunflower, pepper, watermelon, corn, bean, wildflower, etc. they are all intersexed plants. perfect flowers that have both pistillate and staminate "parts". when you think about it like mammals, its hard to understand, but try to think of plants. the difference between a male and a female plant is infinately small on the genetic level. same with us, but all of our systems are governed by this tiny difference in code. thus we are so "different" outwardly. but plants are both sexes, all the time. males are males because thats what they show. females are female for the same reason. but a female has male hormones too. just repressed. and males have female hormones deep down as well. most flowers show both, where neither is repressed. this eliminates the need for the male plant. its a waste of space. look at hemp. if you were to analyse the chromosomes of hemp, most are xx, because the prevalence to "hermie" is so high, the males share of the seedmaking duties are very low. he cant compete with the female since she produces her own male and female parts right next to one another. also, only 50% of his offspring will be male, while 100% of the hermies will be more hermies. its a losing battle for him since he isnt needed. only difference is we arent mother nature, and we want seedless bud, so we need the male parts to stay repressed untill we are ready and choose to use them

 

[whiskeytango420]

we sure can glad you decided to take my not-so-constructive critisicm in a positive way.
depends on what you define "true breeding" as. if you require a male, then no, we wont be doing that. but if you define "true" breeding as a way to make seeds that carry on all the best traits of the parents without any negative effects or genetic deficiencies, regardless of the offsprings sex, then thats what i want to do. all the males provide is pollen. we can get pollen from females, and actually know we are using a good parent plant. the female needs nothing from the male. look at how most other flowering pllants work. they dont use a "male" plant. they are all females and they pollinate themselves. there is no male tomatoe plant. no male sunflower, pepper, watermelon, corn, bean, wildflower, etc. they are all intersexed plants. perfect flowers that have both pistillate and staminate "parts". when you think about it like mammals, its hard to understand, but try to think of plants. the difference between a male and a female plant is infinately small on the genetic level. same with us, but all are systems are governed by this tiny difference in code. thus we are so "different" outwardly. but plants are both all the time. males are males because thats what they show. females are female for the same reason. but a female has male hormones too. just repressed. and males have female hormones deep down. most flowers show both. neither is repressed. this eliminates the need for the male plant. its a waste of space. only difference is we arent mother nature, and we want seedless bud, so we need the male parts to stay repressed untill we are ready and choose to use them

Ah...I am seeing a lil clearer now, and getting pretty interested actually. You are 100% correct about (I have o problem admitting this, as those that know me know) I was basing what you are saying as strictly femming, Arjan and "those other guys" stlye.
What I see you are saying now is you want to ....Outbreed males? So if I am getting this right, you first start with VERY stable genes, NOT the ones I was referring to that seems to be all the craze right now.(all the kushs/chems and diesels)which are now showing a lot of issues.


(And I am not ignorant, just posted as such earlier, ) Say you take my strain QX1, which was a fem to fem strain that was a stressed, and sent to the bay.(forced light intermission during night, non chemical or genetic) She has 2-3 phenos, and 9-10 people on here are growing her and loving her. So by what your saying, how would this strain further be stabilized without having a male? I would love this, as then I wouldnt have 2 clone only representaions of the strain.
So how do you find a way through the selfing, to give a strain all the good attributes and chromosomes, including, hermie reduction...by making herm plants. Just trying to wrap my head around this is all...

good ivbes

 

[Mr. Stinky]

Ah...I am seeing a lil clearer now, and getting pretty interested actually. You are 100% correct about (I have o problem admitting this, as those that know me know) I was basing what you are saying as strictly femming, Arjan and "those other guys" stlye.
What I see you are saying now is you want to ....Outbreed males? So if I am getting this right, you first start with VERY stable genes, NOT the ones I was referring to that seems to be all the craze right now.(all the kushs/chems and diesels)which are now showing a lot of issues.


(And I am not ignorant, just posted as such earlier, ) Say you take my strain QX1, which was a fem to fem strain that was a stressed, and sent to the bay.(forced light intermission during night, non chemical or genetic) She has 2-3 phenos, and 9-10 people on here are growing her and loving her. So by what your saying, how would this strain further be stabilized without having a male? I would love this, as then I wouldnt have 2 clone only representaions of the strain.
So how do you find a way through the selfing, to give a strain all the good attributes and chromosomes, including, hermie reduction...by making herm plants. Just trying to wrap my head around this is all...

good ivbes

selfing is when you have a single plant, and force it to pollinate itself. there are no other plants involved. this is a pretty tight bottleneck, and doesnt really help the situation. but since you have a bunch of plants, fill up a room with them all. all different ones. force as many good females as you find, and let the whole room go to seed. the seed stock you will have will be as genetically diverse as is possible with that group of plants. all the offspring will be female, so it will be a simple task to continue on with your selection. as long as there were more than just a few parent plants, and you continue to use mulpiple parent plants, you will keep your diversity. a male isnt necessary to keep diversity. you should strive to use the same number of males as females for making seed. when i say male, in this case, i mean switched female. there will be S1's in the seed stock, but there is no harm in that, unless you quit using multiple parents. in fact, s1's are a good thing in the mix since they may be the only way a smaller group will show some of the really off the wall plants. they may be fantastically awesome, or they may be catastrophically sucky. its interesting to see either way

also, a hermie is not the same as a feminized seed stock. we are talking about chemically forcing otherwise solid females to produce pollen. her solid traits will be passed to her offspring just as all the other traits. if you used a plant that readily showed staminate flowers, then it would pass that on as well, but we dont want that, so dont use it for making seed stock

gotta go get something done now

 

[whiskeytango420]

selfing is when you have a single plant, and force it to pollinate itself. there are no other plants involved. this is a pretty tight bottleneck, and doesnt really help the situation. but since you have a bunch of plants, fill up a room with them all. all different ones. force as many good females as you find, and let the whole room go to seed. the seed stock you will have will be as genetically diverse as is possible with that group of plants. all the offspring will be female, so it will be a simple task to continue on with your selection. as long as there were more than just a few parent plants, and you continue to use mulpiple parent plants, you will keep your diversity. a male isnt necessary to keep diversity. you should strive to use the same number of males as females for making seed. when i say male, in this case, i mean switched female. there will be S1's in the seed stock, but there is no harm in that, unless you quit using multiple parents. in fact, s1's are a good thing in the mix since they may be the only way a smaller group will show some of the really off the wall plants. they may be fantastically awesome, or they may be catastrophically sucky. its interesting to see either way

also, a hermie is not the same as a feminized seed stock. we are talking about chemically forcing otherwise solid females to produce pollen. her solid traits will be passed to her offspring just as all the other traits. if you used a plant that readily showed staminate flowers, then it would pass that on as well, but we dont want that, so dont use it for making seed stock

gotta go get something done now

Tell ya what...I got the space, I wanna try this. DO I use sound genes that have been stress proven already? force em chemically? I doing selection the old fashion way...lol. But I do go cuts of each pheno of a few strains...wouldnd mind sticking 10 or so in there. Self em all you are saying? so self one, and put it in the room with "moms"?
I dig tinkering,...this could be interesting.

good vibes, and thanks for putting up with my pre-smoke rudeness

 

[ToughGirl]

Chemically feminizing seeds is NOTHING like genetically modifying plants. Jeez. No better than the Monsanto Corporation? WTF - keep your ignorant hippie bullshit in some other thread this is the breeders lab. Go picket frankenfood somewhere.

I said, 'it's one step away'. Mark my words, you'll see it in a few years. Ten years ago companies weren't selling feminized seeds, now it's hard to avoid them. I'm a hippy? Perhaps you're right, I don't like people fucking with what I eat, and I certainly don't want people fucking with what I smoke. Imagine that, a hippy in a POT FORUM. But if I'm a hippy, what are you? Look, I gave a brief opinion, but I forgot you were a hot shot scientist working on your Nobel Prize in Horticulture. Or maybe just another pot head with delusions of grandeur, working in your lab, aka: your basement. Probably illegally at that. Christ, do you crucify everyone's opinion that differs from your own? How about this, do your own research, form your own opinions (as I'm certain you will), and write a thesis on it for the world to revel upon.

 

[habeeb]

one should master the art of organics for beginners

and males are needed just as females


yin and yang
night and day
up and down
black and white
...

 

[Mr. Stinky]

habeeb, its interesting you have such an open minded quote under your username, but you still make up crap barriers to your own thinking. irony is the word

 

[Mr. Stinky]

Tell ya what...I got the space, I wanna try this. DO I use sound genes that have been stress proven already? force em chemically? I doing selection the old fashion way...lol. But I do go cuts of each pheno of a few strains...wouldnd mind sticking 10 or so in there. Self em all you are saying? so self one, and put it in the room with "moms"?
I dig tinkering,...this could be interesting.

good vibes, and thanks for putting up with my pre-smoke rudeness

gotta start somewhere. when we all first started, cloning was the highest mountain. once you figure it out, it only gets easier. a few years of practice, and its second nature. no different with forcing a female. its just a skill that needs to be learned and honed. ill have it down pat soon. im sure anyone else can do it as well.
i just want to field my ideas here hopig there may be someone who knows something i dont, and to start a conversation that maybe sparks interest in something new. we are far from the "end-game" of MJ. might as well explore all avenues we can. i dont think of it as doing anything different than you would with males. you just make your own males with some of your best females. always use as many good parents as possible, and keep the pool as wide as you can within the limits of the strain.

its my plan to try it out. im kinda surprised there are so many naysayers. especially in the breeders lab

 

[GreenintheThumb]

I said, 'it's one step away'. Mark my words, you'll see it in a few years. Ten years ago companies weren't selling feminized seeds, now it's hard to avoid them. I'm a hippy? Perhaps you're right, I don't like people fucking with what I eat, and I certainly don't want people fucking with what I smoke. Imagine that, a hippy in a POT FORUM. But if I'm a hippy, what are you? Look, I gave a brief opinion, but I forgot you were a hot shot scientist working on your Nobel Prize in Horticulture. Or maybe just another pot head with delusions of grandeur, working in your lab, aka: your basement. Probably illegally at that. Christ, do you crucify everyone's opinion that differs from your own? How about this, do your own research, form your own opinions (as I'm certain you will), and write a thesis on it for the world to revel upon.

OH NOES! The gynoecious releases are coming! Run for the hills! You know who gets nobel prizes in horticulture? The people who made the genetically modified food that's required to feed the world. Bring that up in your next drum circle. And sorry but this is the internet and people argue on it, it's the breeders forum i'm not knocking the joint out of your hand in the toker's den

 

[SouthernGuerila]

Yeah put some hair on those balls and buck up.

 

[Mr. Stinky]

yeah.....hairy balls man....yeah

 

[SouthernGuerila]

is there anyone in the business, or even a hobbyist, who has mastered the use of chem's or lights and just doesnt bother with the males anymore? .... so why do we use males? im going to start working with only female populations, and breed the best as i normally would, except ill be using females to do the pollinating. i will also use a male for the first few rounds, just to see if there are any noticable differences.

just curious if im the only one with this thought? im not interested in all the pothead heresay about "the scary fem seed". just real thoughts of real growers.

Homosexual couples wish they could "pollinate" their partner to procure offspring.

That's whats wrong with your whole ideology.

To explain it... From what I can recall of what I've read about using hermied female cannabis plants is that the offspring will also be hermied and you cannot control or completely eliminate that trait.

Mind you I'ved smoked one bowl and I'm working on my 2nd.

 

[Mr. Stinky]

To explain it... From what I can recall of what I've read about using hermied female cannabis plants is that the offspring will also be hermied and you cannot control or completely eliminate that trait.

while that may be true, thats an entirely different discussion than im having here. no hermies. its a trait, just like all the rest that gets passed to the offspring. we arent using hermies, so the trait doesnt apply here

thanks tho

 

[SouthernGuerila]

"im going to start working with only female populations, and breed the best as i normally would, except ill be using females to do the pollinating."

Put down the crack pipe and walk away from the keyboard.

 

[habeeb]

habeeb, its interesting you have such an open minded quote under your username, but you still make up crap barriers to your own thinking. irony is the word

who said I was wanting anything else then what nature has in place? I like the "laws" of nature when it comes to plants, it's perfect to me and I wouldn't want it any other way

Do I have to give you a crazy made up story every time I write something because I say, " your thoughts are the only thing limiting that is possible" ?

 

[shawkmon]

ive made seeds from a plant that threw nanners, was the best weed i ever grew so i dusted itself and 2 sisters, im so happy i did, now i have like 80 female seeds, ive grown like 3plants from seeds to finish, no hermies or nanners, 3 more in flower now, all six were females no nanners, wish me luck