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New v Old

dank.frank

ef.yu.se.ka.e.em
ICMag Donor
Veteran
All this new stuff...and still not ONE breeder actually working something to the point of true stability.

Everyone always advertising the newest, greatest, most breathtaking breakthrough in cannabis genetics - only to drop it for the next newest greatest in the next release. Hacks releasing 20-60 new seed lines every year. It's a joke. You sell that many combinations and eventually someone is going to find a decent plant. It's called probability.

If these breeders REALLY believed in the work they were creating, they'd be carrying those lines through to stability and offering genetics that when open-pollinated actually produce the same phenotype.

At the end of the day, it's all about money for these guys. Everyone has been given access to the modern day elites. Closet breeders have the same cuts as large warehouses.

The only way for these seed companies to continue to extort money from you is to go a different direction. Find plants that very few people have access to. This means going back to old genetics that are now rare and hard to come by. With that rarity comes the ability to market something different and increase the value of said offering under the guise of offering something no one else has.

THE POSITIVE way of looking at this would be to assume these plants actually have massive value. Due to the changing of laws, opportunities now exist to work with some of the old parent lines in a more proper manner. Rather than sorting 2 or 3 plants in a closet and passing forward a very limited segment of the genome, now hundreds of plants can be examined without fear in greenhouses and warehouses. This allows for breeding directions to be taken with consideration to a more complete genetic representation being present from which to make selections. It has always been a huge fear of many that small breeding projects have eliminated important traits from the larger gene pool. I assume the interest in older plants is the result of a desire to restore this theoretical lost potential. Having a more complete library of traits to select from and thus when recreating some of the modern lines, creating something superior to the originals.

The problem I see with this - In any industry where notoriety drives profit - there is a huge potential for deception and abuse. We see it all the time with people passing incorrectly named clones. Without proper genetic assay it is next to impossible to know if a plant you are being given as a 1970's Afghan is not really just a very nice isolated cut from a modern indica line. You simply have to trust the source, which ultimately lacks any sort of scientific credibility.

More often than not though, I see it as a marketing ploy to drive sales. F1 from a circa 1970 x 2014 line isn't really that interesting to me. A refined, true breeding F12 from the same gene pool that I can open pollinate and get the same results next season, however is of massive interest to me. Problem is, no one will do that because it would minimize their future profits. Cannabis is one of the only agricultural industries where genetic instability is accepted, praised, and marketed as a good thing.

These issues of instability don't affect the gardener that is only allowed to sprout 6 seeds, so these hacks are able to get away with it. IF these genetics were being purchased in lots of 10,000 and planted on acreage, you'd have a bunch of pissed of farmers complaining how 90% of their crop was ruined by genetic fluctuation that destroyed their ability to make a profit because only 1 out of 100 plants was as advertised. Then the breeder would be sued because the farmer was unable to fulfill his contractual obligations due to the misleading nature of what was offered.

Interesting times ahead.



dank.Frank
 
B

BAKED_BEANZ

All this new stuff...and still not ONE breeder actually working something to the point of true stability.

Everyone always advertising the newest, greatest, most breathtaking breakthrough in cannabis genetics - only to drop it for the next newest greatest in the next release. Hacks releasing 20-60 new seed lines every year. It's a joke. You sell that many combinations and eventually someone is going to find a decent plant. It's called probability.

If these breeders REALLY believed in the work they were creating, they'd be carrying those lines through to stability and offering genetics that when open-pollinated actually produce the same phenotype.

At the end of the day, it's all about money for these guys. Everyone has been given access to the modern day elites. Closet breeders have the same cuts as large warehouses.

The only way for these seed companies to continue to extort money from you is to go a different direction. Find plants that very few people have access to. This means going back to old genetics that are now rare and hard to come by. With that rarity comes the ability to market something different and increase the value of said offering under the guise of offering something no one else has.

THE POSITIVE way of looking at this would be to assume these plants actually have massive value. Due to the changing of laws, opportunities now exist to work with some of the old parent lines in a more proper manner. Rather than sorting 2 or 3 plants in a closet and passing forward a very limited segment of the genome, now hundreds of plants can be examined without fear in greenhouses and warehouses. This allows for breeding directions to be taken with consideration to a more complete genetic representation being present from which to make selections. It has always been a huge fear of many that small breeding projects have eliminated important traits from the larger gene pool. I assume the interest in older plants is the result of a desire to restore this theoretical lost potential. Having a more complete library of traits to select from and thus when recreating some of the modern lines, creating something superior to the originals.

The problem I see with this - In any industry where notoriety drives profit - there is a huge potential for deception and abuse. We see it all the time with people passing incorrectly named clones. Without proper genetic assay it is next to impossible to know if a plant you are being given as a 1970's Afghan is not really just a very nice isolated cut from a modern indica line. You simply have to trust the source, which ultimately lacks any sort of scientific credibility.

More often than not though, I see it as a marketing ploy to drive sales. F1 from a circa 1970 x 2014 line isn't really that interesting to me. A refined, true breeding F12 from the same gene pool that I can open pollinate and get the same results next season, however is of massive interest to me. Problem is, no one will do that because it would minimize their future profits. Cannabis is one of the only agricultural industries where genetic instability is accepted, praised, and marketed as a good thing.

These issues of instability don't affect the gardener that is only allowed to sprout 6 seeds, so these hacks are able to get away with it. IF these genetics were being purchased in lots of 10,000 and planted on acreage, you'd have a bunch of pissed of farmers complaining how 90% of their crop was ruined by genetic fluctuation that destroyed their ability to make a profit because only 1 out of 100 plants was as advertised. Then the breeder would be sued because the farmer was unable to fulfill his contractually obligations due to the misleading nature of what was offered.

Interesting times ahead.



dank.Frank

always well thought out , :) and accurate .....

fuck i got a hackers complex now , though i,m chucking for personal seed .
i totally agree though , my problem was took me so god dam long to find the strain i really want to take any further than f2 i,m now at f4 with a particular strain and not looking back anytime soon .

its a lovely romance when you actually can find something worth going back for time and time again .

i was only thinking this morning , wow those f3 are so nice and can,t wait to get into the f4 that are made ...... wondering how more refined they are going to be .

you,ll know when you find it , whatever it is ...... cause it,ll be the one everyone smokes and go,s " oh wow"

( the short version "vote 1" for f12 breeders) but as you say breeders don't make money working a strain that far ,
 

aridbud

automeister
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Female seed has set the industry back by several years, its contaminated the breeding pool and the plants have gotten weaker because of it. Cubing genetic pools is very important, Mendel's Law/Theory anything that can happen will happen.

GrowDoc

Yep....that's why we only breed regular seeds....for that very reason. Too, fems...less potent.
 

dank.frank

ef.yu.se.ka.e.em
ICMag Donor
Veteran
I'm not really trying to crucify the industry or breeders. I'm merely stating my opinion on the matter. I've held this point of view for several years now.

If someone is willing to purchase your product and it results in happy consumers - then by all means continue what you are doing. Where there is market demand, there is a need to fill that demand.

Legal limitations prevent my idealistic vision from being a reality. In all fairness based on my previous statement, I'm a pollen hack too. Even knowing what I'm doing does not prevent this reality. I am content, in stating, I do the very best I possibly can within the current limitations I face.

In such a light, the difference between a hack and an honest operation can't simply be equated to scale of operation. It really comes down to the same thing that prevents ANY industry from becoming malicious - open source information. The more a company is willing to present factual information about the work that has been done and what the actual expected results should be, the more willing I am to support that work as legitimate. It doesn't have to be stable, I just have to know what to expect and what to watch for and how many seed I should sprout in order to find what I seek. An individual that can provide first hand factual information instead of marketing propaganda is the best basis I can use to evaluate what seeds I sprout.

True transparency, in my opinion, is what currently separates the hacks from those actually breeding. Those actually breeding don't mind sharing the truth of their efforts. Those just chucking pollen stand around and tell you how great everything they have to offer is.



dank.Frank
 

GMT

The Tri Guy
Veteran
Thanks Frank, yeah, busts, FEMS and CAG Pop music breeding practice's (same chords in all songs), as the background, will push even the chuckers to go looking for something ancient to worship and pass a collection plate for.
There are interesting lines around, lines I haven't seen worked much, but no one touches them. I guess its like no one wanting to be the smartest guy in the village they want to earn the average in the city and follow the big guys game.
 

GMT

The Tri Guy
Veteran
I really don't want this to turn into a breeding discussion, but I do have to add one more observation that has been brought up. So many assume the need to preserve as many copies of the same gene and are scared of losing ancient genes. True breeding, to my mind, is more about removing unwanted/ unbeneficial genes from a line known to hold decent genes. You can op and search or 1:1 and search a lot less.
 

Aeroguerilla

I’m God’s solider, devil’s apostle
Veteran
i think there is often a tendency to chase what is new, in fashion, and try to acquire what everyone is talking about, and there is always the 'new cuts on the block' that only a few peeps have and so everyone wants them so they can say they've got them.
i guess potency seems to get higher and for folks that have limited money to spend on weed then that is desirable.
quite a few of the cuts that get hyped for a year or two tend to fall out of favour and get forgotten about after a few years.

personally i am always more interested in the cuts that have been around for a long time, cos those are the ones that have stood the test of time and have remained on the radar from actually being great or unique in some way, they have to be the sh1t to stick around for that long. i find the ones i personally keep around are the older ones and the when it comes to reducing the amount of mother plants it is the newer ones that get dropped.

so yeah, give me the cuts that have been around for 15-20 years!
that said, very high potency isnt really something im that bothered about because i have more than enough weed to smoke

ive been lucky enough to come by a lot of the cuts going around (in the UK at least) and the ones ive kept are all old-school - pre-98 bubba, amnesia, and Chem D - except that i lost my chem D mother plant a few weeks ago and i'm GUTTED about that ..

VG

Totally feel you lost my Chem D cut after 6 years brother!
 
in old grower who showed me the ropes had skunk#1 that he got from emery back in the day, and open pollinated it outdoors for 20 yrs, before he ended up loosing that line due to some legal problems. it to this day was some of the best smoke I have ever had. it always produced only two different phenotypes. both Christmas trees. they were either 4 ft with very few leaves on the buds, or they were 6 ft with very leafy buds. he called them the hair, and the leaf. both would produce about 1lb when planted early may and harvested beginning of oct. they both tasted the same and had the same buzz.

I know when he tried to grow it indoors that it was like a different plant. and when he gifted some seeds to someone who lived in a different part of the country it didn't grow as well, so it actually acclimated to the local micro climate.
 

dank.frank

ef.yu.se.ka.e.em
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Regionally acclimated varieties are common in all forms of agriculture. People who farm in the northeast often breed local varieties with genes native to eastern/northern Europe. The point being to introduce cold hardy plants that finish quicker.

Same is true in cannabis. Much of what is grown in northern Oregon and Washington state has been selected first and foremost for the plants ability to resist mold/mildew/bud rot. Fast finishing sativa hybrids that have a looser bud structure are much more ideal to the local environment.

The same is also true of indoor gardens. Think a seed line produced in a very specific indoor environment hasn't been influenced by such? Think again. It has. To pass the best a plant has to offer to the next filial generation, you have to be able to bring those attributes to the surface in the first place.



dank.Frank
 
P

psilocybevybe

nostalgia, preservation and the need to sample something not related in the genepool available
 

GMT

The Tri Guy
Veteran
Hey Frank,
When you say quote: "To pass the best a plant has to offer to the next filial generation, you have to be able to bring those attributes to the surface in the first place."
Are you giving a nod to epigenetic inheritance ? I don't think you go in for Burbank's view, so I'm guessing you are talking about plant eugenics there, with breeding from the best, giving the best probability of greatness existing within the offspring.
We enter the looking glass where a poor breeders methods give the best chance of avoiding the traps of niche environmental adaptation. The inability to grow cup winning bud, often causing the plant with the greatest potential, if given the opportunity, being overlooked in their garden due to grower error.
Although I have to be honest, I don't for see that ever becoming a problem even for the best grower/breeders due to how few generations are bred, prior to another marketing outcross exercise.
Can you just make a quick clarification there mate.
 

dank.frank

ef.yu.se.ka.e.em
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Without pretending to be smarter than I am and with what limited understanding I do have based on what I've read and have seen in my own experiences...

It is my understanding that heritable information is and can be carried by chromosomes to the next generation which can fundamentally alter the DNA.

If I'm not mistaken, this is referred to a transgenerational epigenetic inheritance.

The first time I realized this was possible and an issue is when I attempted to make seeds on a plant that was really struggling outdoors. Basically, I was just ignoring it, but decided I'd dust it with a healthy male from an indoor garden. I repeated this pollination on a healthy female of the same plant in my indoor garden as well.

The seeds from the outdoor plant produced seedlings that struggled with germination and growth. They actually did better in old soil that was nutritionally depleted than they did in soil that had been re-amended. The leaves were just twisting and center fan blades kept growing in nautilus like curls. The seeds from the indoor plant were what we'd consider normal and performed as expected. The only difference between the seeds, was one mother plant was outdoors and being highly neglected and one mother plant was indoors and pampered and babied.

Now, I may be drawing causation where there is none, from genetic inheritance stand point, but this experience many years ago really got me reading more and trying to understand genetics. It could simply be, the seeds on the outdoor plant simply didn't have the nutrition required to form properly. My primary reason for assuming it was genetic though, is these same lousy seeds actually grew better in old soil that was nutritional depleted.



dank.Frank
 

GMT

The Tri Guy
Veteran
In evolution terms, it makes no difference, but in expression, the is some evidence that appears to support it.
The same genes are passed on unaltered, other than if they are active or not: whether or not that state is passed on is unclear. As you said, lower nutrition at creation will lead to a lesser physical stature. That in turn has lower nutritional requirements. A useful tool in nature, and not a permanent change as can be seen in Ireland. After the famine there, the children were born smaller, and average height fell, (evidence gathered from moving graveyards), though within a couple of generations of food being sufficient, average adult sizes were back to where they originally were.

Thanks for your thoughts frank.
 

leet

Member
For me its not about nostalgia but what is best smoke. People the last 20 years have been grown easy and heavy yielding to grow indoors strains that are mostly indica and mostly boring. Then they are not satisfied and they want something like the "old" days high.

Some people really miss flavours
 

GMT

The Tri Guy
Veteran
Ah found it! That'll make more sense if you see this second M J.

Hmmm, I don't like it, but if better minds than mine say so, I'll play along. So having been switched on or off, it seems they pass on not just the instructions but also the activity level. Since we already optimise the environment for the chosen expressions though, we are surely passing on the correct signals. The research only spoke of maternal inheritance, the pollen donors experiences, at the very least, have yet to be commented on and may not count. It stands to reason then that feminisation processes should not, on current evidence, cause any negative expression experiences as a result of their creation.
 

meizzwang

Member
Mainstream cannabis varieties today are very inbred and closely related to each other:most share the same parents somewhere down the line. "Skillful" breeders are producing exactly what the general public wants:something uniform, strong, tasty, and good looking. New genes occasionally get mixed in, but they all still have the same great-great-great-great great-great-great grand daddy. This has happened with dogs, chickens, bananas-pretty much anything humans get their hands on:they find only a few characteristics that the general population wants, and those genes are perpetuated.

Downside is that many dogs are so inbred, they're prone to die early due to cancer, and they suffer with arthritis in middle age despite living very healthy, active lives. Chickens can barely walk and suffer most of their short lives because they're bred for gigantic breast meat that develops very quickly (thank god we didn't go in that direction with humans, LOL) Millions of acres of Bananas are getting wiped out from panama disease (an otherwise harmless disease in wild-type bananas), banana bunch top virus, and bacterial diseases because only 1 or 2 main cultivars are being grown commercially worldwide. It's easier/more cost effective for the industry to spray more and more hardcore chemicals than it is to spend decades creating a new disease resistant variety that the general public demands.

With cannabis, it's more profitable to work with commerical, well worked strains that everyone already demands. Cannabis has crazy bud rot problems because most of the original genetics were acclimated to super low humidity, desert environments (afghanistan, and parts of Pakistan) or have been bred for high yield, which means the buds don't "breath" very well (thick buds=super high chance of rot when rained on or when grown in high humidity).

I was shocked when I saw punto rojo (old school landrace) get botrytis and then the plant fought it off! With dutch genetics, the first sign of bud rot means if you don't pick it now, the whole crop will go to waste very quickly.

If we don't change directions, cannabis is genetically in deep shit. Kinda like thinking that global warming isn't much of a problem and we should continue to burn fossil fuels at the rate that we do today... Good news is it only takes a handful of mindful individuals to save everything, and I think there are a few out there who understand these concepts and are acting upon them to change things for the future.

Long story short, I'm glad people are seeking out strains from the 90's, perhaps this will be the catalyst that steers breeders to become more conscious of the need to ditch the current genetics and work with wild types that have not yet been explored. Landraces are great, but wild, "shitty, worthless" weed from large populations is even better because it contains much more diversity.
 

Tynehead Tom

Well-known member
this thread has had me inventorying my freezer LOL, which holds a stash that has been collected since 1988.
today's finds and most of this stuff i have no idea as it was given to me long ago in the tin 35mm film cannisters they came in.
the labels are as follows
punta cana vacation (bag seeds)
kona
NL5x kona
purple afghan
afghan (mazarr)
afghan (tariq)
Original Flo x NL5
NL5 x Flo
original blueberry x NL5
NL5 x original blueberry
Shiskaberry x flo
shiskaberry x blueberry
white lightning x NL5
NL5 x Nepali (temple)
5 are taped together and labelled "best of 88" emerald triangle (road trip)

none of these beans were purchased from seed slingers, all have been gathered by friends in our various travels over the past few decades.

and there's shitloads more to catalog. :D
 

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