New grow process?/What to call it?

[mr-natural78]

For example, we'll get into topics like changing organic foods to specifically move pH up or down.

I find this very interesting.

Hey... how does "Hybrid Nutrient Technique" sound as a decent description?

Sounds like a winner to me.

 

[Tropic]

I find this very interesting too!
I have not observed negative results (ie: death/damage to the microherd) when using refined nutes topically in an organic grow. Sounds promising, I'll be following silently.

 

[pray4pistils]

For example, we'll get into topics like changing organic foods to specifically move pH up or down.

I find this very interesting.

Hey... how does "Hybrid Nutrient Technique" sound as a decent description?

Sounds like a winner to me.

Right on, my man. I'm thinking that name is appropriate, too. Perhaps we'll all make it famous in due time. I'm going to need help with this whole thing because while I see the results I'm no guru (and actually seek one). Also, scientific proof will come only after folks attempt these procedures and validate them in different environments.

As for the organic pH up and down it's pretty simple and revolves around the foods with which you brew the tea. (Surely, the water's starting pH matters, too. Mine is 6.5 right out of the tap, so keep that in mind.) One thing that is consistent in all my teas is blackstrap molasses. I always add that after 24 hours of bubbling to keep up the metabolism and reproduction. I don't throw it in initially because it tends to amplify whatever is in the water (beneficial or pathogenic). The waiting period allows the beneficials to dominate the nasties. This is very important!

Anyway, my first step is to add 1tsp of fish-derived organic fertilizer to each gallon of dechlorinated tap water. Currently, I'm using Alaska-brand (emulsion-based) fertilizer which I pick up from Home Depot for about $8 a quart. (I'm using it for veg AND flowering, btw.) After that I drop in some kelp meal. Fulvic and humic acids are added. Then, I immediately inoculate with Great White or water from my reservoir (which already has thriving microbe populations). Or, sometimes I'll trek down to a clean stream nearby and grab a gallon. The raw ingredient soup is a very dark brown at this point.


(click photo)

Coot points to strong reasoning to switch to a fish hydrolysate product. (I did use AN's Iguana Juice at first. That's hydrolysate + other stuff. However, I switched because I'm cheap.) Either way this fish stuff STINKS at first. To smell it straight out of the bottle is to be repulsed. YUCK! Bubble it aggressively for 24 hours and the odor disappears almost completely. The ppm tends to roughly double as the microherd digests the raw materials and converts them to compounds that the plants can incorporate. At this point the stuff is ready for some poop. (snicker)

I've noticed that Budswel creates a tea that drops pH down into the 4.5 range. This scared the heck out of me at first as I thought my brew had gone anerobic. However, the addition of more Great White bacteria and even more aeration changed nothing but the EC/ppm.


(click photo)

On the other hand, the locally-farmed EWC that I use seems to drive pH upwards. I say "seems" because it could be another variable like the particular bacteria that I use, the molasses, etc. Whether I start with EWC or guano, I always balance out the mix with alfalfa and oatmeal. Thus, these are constants -not variables. Nute strength measured on my Bluelabs truncheon tends to increase about 40% over the fishy water after the castings or guano is digested. I allow about 24 hours for this step to finish.

After this time the fish stink is completely eliminated and the stuff takes on a slightly musty or earthy fragrance. The tea pH is now at about 5.0. The tea's color lightens up to a rich chocolatey brown (after first being almost black). After filtering out any solids with one of my fine mesh ice/bubble hash bags, I pour it into the reservoir (where the alkalinity tends to rise as the nutes are depleted). The rez pH now drops a couple of points. NICE. Keep in mind that I time the tea additions to serve as add backs. So long as the aeration is kept up the whole mix stays healthy over a two-week period. The ratio of organic to chemical gets biased towards the organics, though (-a very fine thing imho). Very little pH down has to be added to keep the rez in the 5.5 - 6.0 range. (Bucket pH tends to be about .2 higher.)

re: Fish Hydrolysate vs Fish Emulsion

Hey, Coot. It looks like there are nutritional differences between the emulsion and the hydrolysate, too. Check out this link here.

 

[Slimm]

I'm subscribed!

Here's my perspective on this technique. I started growing cannabis indoor with soil and organics. In my quest to adjust my growing style for improved yield and quality I discovered passive hydro in hempy / bato buckets. This answered my concerns about improving yield however I feel that quality of the harvest can be improved through the addition of organics. Passive hydro also provided me with a simpler way of growing and I'm always interested in simplifying things - bonus! However, I was still interested in adding organics to the mix. Not as the primary mean of nutrition but as a supplement to high quality hydro nutrients. All attempts to run organics in a passive hydro, that I could find on the net, met with disaster - bacterial overgrowth in the bucket's res.

Now there are organic hydro nutrient product lines but those are not for me. I want to use GH flora series and supplement with organics to improve quality during flowering. I'm not interested in growing organic just for the organic label so I do not care if the end product cannot be called "organic". To my mind, high quality chemical salts grow just as healthful an end product as organics do as long as pest and diseases are managed without harmful chemicals. The addition of organics provide subtle improvements to quality and that is what I want to add to my program.

I think we can learn a lot by participating in this discussion. Thanks for opening this thread pray4pistils!

 

[pray4pistils]

I want to use GH flora series and supplement with organics to improve quality during flowering. I'm not interested in growing organic just for the organic label so I do not care if the end product cannot be called "organic".

DING! We're on the same page. Keep in mind, though, that my experience is with the FloraNova 1-part nutrients -not the Flora 3-part line. FloraNova is closer to "organic" to begin with and it's the epitome of easy. Thus, my technique is based upon it.

All attempts to run organics in a passive hydro, that I could find on the net, met with disaster - bacterial overgrowth in the bucket's res.

Well, bacteria ain't all the same. We actually want "bacterial overgrowth"! However, it has to be the beneficial stuff -not anything pathogenic. I suspect that most people have attempted this without positive aeration (which is THE key to making success possible). Good news is that a strong pump supplying air to the lower reservoir section takes care of business perfectly. I've experienced no clogging when the stones are buried in the pure perlite layer at the bottom. (The perlite lets only water and fine particles through. Whereas the clogging solids stay in the upper area.) Using 6" stones and t-fittings you can space them out so that there are no anerobic zones in the res. section.

Remember that you're not trying aerate the roots (although it doesn't hurt). Rather, it's the beneficial bacteria that need the oxygen to stay alive and thrive. With that said, though, you should pre-digest the organic nutes in a bucket before applying them. (In a drain to waste system I don't believe that there's enough time for raw organic foods to be fully processed.) Follow the procedure that I've outlined so far and you'll be good to go.

Btw, the grow mix recipe is important. Again, here's what I used for the root section:

55% perlite
20% vermiculite
15% coco coir
10% earthworm castings

The coir is primarily there for fungi to attach to. Its high cation exchange capacity means that it buffers nutrients more than perlite/vermiculite (making it a bit more like soil in that respect). If these advantages don't interest you, then you can increase the perlite and vermiculite at proportions that match your watering frequency. (More perlite = less water retention. Greater amounts of vermiculite = more water retention.)

I think we can learn a lot by participating in this discussion. Thanks for opening this thread pray4pistils!

Absolutely, let's work on this together and give the purists something to be jealous about.

 

[pray4pistils]

Guys, I just started a new batch of tea and tested pH for the various ingredients. Here's what I measured:

plain tap water: 6.5
OGM Products Humic "Acid": 8.6
OGM Products Fulvic Acid: 3.5
Hygrozyme: 3.5
Alaska Fish Fertilizer: 3.7
Technaflora Soluable Seaweed (kelp): 9.1

Now, here's the effect of these foods when added in sequence to 4 gallons of (originally) plain water:

1) humic acid (1.00tsp/gal*): 7.6
2) fulvic acid (1.00tsp/gal): 6.5
3) Hygrozyme (1.25tsp/gal): 6.0
4) stinky fish fertz (1.00tsp/gal): 5.7
5) kelp (1.33tsp/gal): 5.9

*The bottle says add 1tsp/5gallons, but I misread and over applied. Oh well, whatever.

Original pH: 6.5
Final pH: 5.9
Original water EC: ~.14
Final water EC: .6 (420ppm on the 700 scale, so you know this has to work!)

By tomorrow morning I expect the ppm/EC to rise back towards 6.5. I'll let y'all know what the number is. After that's measured I'll add the Budswel, Great White, alfalfa, oatmeal, and molasses. That'll bubble for another 24 hours or so and then I'll measure again and report the findings.

 

[generalgrievous]

Quasi_Organics.....?

Quasi_Organics.....?

Great thread.....I'm in....

should keep organic in the name though.....For the nazis

 

[pray4pistils]

Okay... 12 hours later we have interesting results. The pH is now 6.7! That's .2 points higher than where the water started in the first place. On the other hand the nutes concentration has dropped. It was .6EC/ 420ppm before. Now it's at .5EC/ 350ppm.

The microbes have partially digested the fish emulsion but are holding more of it in their little bodies than they have excreted. What they have passed back to the water is now is probably nitrite (NO3). The next step in the chain is to convert the nitrite into nitrate (NO4) which cannabis absorbs more readily. Btw, I haven't thrown in any Great White, yet. So, this suggests that what's happened so far is due to bacteria that was already in the fish or populations in the local environment.

Last night the room temperature was in the mid 60s. Now, it is in the low 50s. That slows metabolism. Since I probably don't have as large (or active) a beneficial bacteria population as I'd normally get by this time, I'm going to hold off on feeding the molasses. Again, we want to do that only after the beneficials dominate the nasties. So, for the same reason it's a perfect time to add the Great White. We'll do the molasses, Budswel, and other stuff this evening after taking/reporting readings.


(click photo)


NAME: So far we've got votes for...
Tuff 'n Transitional
Quasi-Organics
Semi-Organics
Chem-O Therapy (Lol! Brilliant, but NO! That's got bad implications. Hahaha!)
Hybrid Nutrition Technique (with an abbreviation of HyNT)
Dual Delivery Nutrition


Stay tuned for more, folks.

P.S. I just added a dose of Great White and pH dropped back to 6.5. Nute strength reads .6EC/ 420ppm again. This is simply the result of the substance's addition -not from any metabolic activity. That'll be analyzed in another 12 hours or so.

 

[TND]

great thread P4P im subscribed! i really think im going to duplicate your tea here and see what it does i really need to build up the good guys since i was slimed a few weeks back and i know they are just waiting to attack again!!

 

[pray4pistils]

great thread P4P im subscribed! i really think im going to duplicate your tea here and see what it does i really need to build up the good guys since i was slimed a few weeks back and i know they are just waiting to attack again!!

Great! I'm looking for folks to emulate my technique and then provide feedback. Let's make sure that your garden is ready for it, though. You mentioned slime...

a) Have you gotten rid of it completely? If so, how'd you do it?
b) Do you know why you got the infection to begin with?
c) What sort of condition are the roots in now?
d) Are you doing hydro? -soil? -soilless?
e) What nutes did you use/are you using?
f) If you're doing hydro with a reservoir, what have your water temperatures been? Are you AGGRESSIVELY aerating the reservoir?

(Please answer ALL questions as best you can.)

I ask all this because feeding organic foods to a sick garden may help the nasties return with a vengeance! (Pathogens bloom faster than beneficial organisms.) Should you have any doubts at all I recommend "nuking" everything with some hydrogen peroxide. (Cloramines may stay in the root zone and kill off anything alive that you add -at least for a while.) After you know that the bad boys are gone the next step is to apply a commercial beneficial bacteria mix but without anything else. Let that get going and allow it to overcome the bad stuff before you start feeding with organic foods -especially sugars.

Cheers,

P.S. The "fee" for this help is a recommendation from you on a name for strategically mixing synthetic and organic nutes. Which name do you prefer? Or, have you got a suggestion of your own to share?

 

[generalgrievous]

Pistils... You're throwing out a wealth of tea brewing knowledge..... I use 'the rev's' recipe but have always assembled it at once and brewed without taking into account what's brewing when or what's changing the ph....

my next tea will be assembled your way... Or as close as I can.

What are your thoughts on h2o2.... What does it do to the rhizosphere....
I believe it only release oxygen and water vapor.... I may be wrong..

 

[TND]

Great! I'm looking for folks to emulate my technique and then provide feedback. Let's make sure that your garden is ready for it, though. You mentioned slime...

a) Have you gotten rid of it completely? If so, how'd you do it?
b) Do you know why you got the infection to begin with?
c) What sort of condition are the roots in now?
d) Are you doing hydro? -soil? -soilless?
e) What nutes did you use/are you using?
f) If you're doing hydro with a reservoir, what have your water temperatures been? Are you AGGRESSIVELY aerating the reservoir?

(Please answer ALL questions as best you can.)

I ask all this because feeding organic foods to a sick garden may help the nasties return with a vengeance! (Pathogens bloom faster than beneficial organisms.) Should you have any doubts at all I recommend "nuking" everything with some hydrogen peroxide. (Don't use cloramines because they'll stay in the root zone and kill off anything alive that you add.) After you know that the bad boys are gone the next step is to apply a commercial beneficial bacteria mix but without anything else. Let that get going and allow it to overcome the bad stuff before you start feeding with organic foods -especially sugars.

Cheers,

P.S. The "fee" for this help is a recommendation from you on a name for strategically mixing synthetic and organic nutes. Which name do you prefer? Or, have you got a suggestion of your own to share?

1. yes i believe i have gotten rid of it i cleaned the roots well of the slime and then i flushed the system with dutchzone and then also did a flush with hydrogen peroxide

2. i got the infection i believe from a overdose of molasses to the rez and i have a lil bit of organics in the rez and had a chiller issue a few days earlier so...heat + nasties = slime

3. the roots look pretty good have some new growth on them already but its really small

4. Hydro

5. gh 3 part along with foxfarm bloom and diamond nectar

6. my water temps are at 68 degrees and yes im aerating the rez and rootzones with a eco 5 airpump 5 sites total including rez

i guess i need to do that next step and feed with a commercial beneficial bacteria mix do you have a suggestion?

and i my vote is for Hybrid Nutrition Technique. no one can complain about that because thats whats it is!!

 

[pray4pistils]

my next tea will be assembled your way... Or as close as I can.

Cool, bruh. I'm here to learn too, though. So, feel free to try some variations on the theme. For instance, you could be a pioneer with coconut water (the thin/non-fatty liquid). That's supposed to release crazy cytokinin hormones which promote branching and bud sites. It's exciting to realize that there's a lot of bio-matter available to experiment with. Each can potentially impart desired growth characteristics when its essence is captured in a tea. Btw, the organic soil guys seriously know what they're doing with teas. Some are self-righteous about it, too. Lol!

What are your thoughts on h2o2.... What does it do to the rhizosphere.... I believe it only release oxygen and water vapor.... I may be wrong..

You are correct. Those are the chemical byproducts. However, peroxide burns (literally oxidizes) microbes. Their cellular walls dissolve immediately in the stuff's presence. Thus, it has no place in this type of grow scheme unless you are purposely trying to produce a blank slate after an infection. (This is what I might recommend to TND.) Rather, oxygenation is the role of a highly-pressurized air stone (or several of them) that runs constantly in the rez.

Water temperature determines the oxygen holding capacity. The higher the temperature the less O2 will dissolve into it. I keep my water temperature between 64 and 70degF. This is warm enough to stimulate the roots but cool enough to hold lots of air. Oxygen kills disease-creating anerobic microbes (which tend to bloom explosively). Then aerobic (oxygen-loving) bacteria take over (but at a relatively slower reproduction/expansion rate).

The point here is to balance available food, oxygenation, and water temperature and innoculate with a blend of microbes that keep the water free of disease and the agents that cause them.

 

[pray4pistils]

1. yes i believe i have gotten rid of it i cleaned the roots well of the slime and then i flushed the system with dutchzone and then also did a flush with hydrogen peroxide

Okay, the peroxide is great because it dissipates harmlessly. Did you see my advice before about cloramines? Well, that's precisely what the Zone product is. Do you know specifically how long it takes for that stuff to become non-toxic to microbes? There's obviously no point in adding them if they'll be killed immediately.

heat + nasties = slime

eeeeeeeuuuuuww...

6. my water temps are at 68 degrees and yes im aerating the rez and rootzones with a eco 5 airpump 5 sites total including rez

Perfect!

i guess i need to do that next step and feed with a commercial beneficial bacteria mix do you have a suggestion?

I'm delighted with Great White which I've discussed previously. (Click the picture.) It's chock full of beneficial bacteria, mycorrhizae fungus, and even some vitamins. Thus it's like Subculture-M and B together or... Piranha and Tarantula combined. Win!

and i my vote is for Hybrid Nutrition Technique. no one can complain about that because thats whats it is!!

Thanks much. That's the one I'm leaning towards, too, for the same reason.

 

[TND]

1. well i did the zone flush first and then did a complete flush with the peroxide that was 2 weeks ago so hopefully they should be ok plus i have some new growth

and i added some subculture m & b last week so i guess i am ahead

so i have my first part of the tea brewing hopefully this will help these girls out

thx P4P for your help!

 

[pray4pistils]

so i have my first part of the tea brewing hopefully this will help these girls out...thx P4P for your help!

Sure thing, man. Feel free to describe how your brewing goes.

And, on that note, I took readings last night, finished my latest batch of tea, and then finished the add back cycle. Here's what I found:

1) Evening tea (only fish & kelp + Great White)
ppm: 350/ EC: .5 (This is ~16.5% lower than it was when the microbes were added 12 hours before.)
pH: 7.5
Added: molasses @1tsp/gallon
Added: 1/2 cup guano + 1/2 cup earthworm castings + 3tsp alfalfa

2) Morning tea (final reading)
ppm: 560/ EC: .8
pH: 6.1 (Notice higher alkalinity than a guano-only brew which was ~4.5.)

I filtered this through a 50 micron hash bag, took readings, and added back to the main rez. Readings were taken before the tea application as:

3) ppm: 910/ EC:1.3
pH: 6.1

Then, after the tea:
4) ppm: 980/ EC: 1.4
pH: 6.1

A week ago my 35gal reservoir was 100% synthetic with a 1120ppm and EC of 1.6. Even after the two organic tea add backs the measured nute concentration fell due to the plant's feeding. So, to replenish it, I added 24tsp of FloraNova Bloom. Readings were as follows:

5) ppm: 1120/ EC: 1.6
pH: 5.9

Since the pH has been up around 6.1 for most of the week I added two teaspoons of Advanced Nutrients pH down (which is seriously strong stuff). The largest pH drop that I recommend per day is .5 points. That's what I went for and got a final reading of:

6) ppm: 1120/ EC: 1.6
pH: 5.6

This is expected to rise over the next few days towards a maximum preferred level of 6.1. (It may require a bit of pH down to keep it there.) Allowing pH to range a bit ensures that all required nutrients will be assimilated by the plant over time and protects against deficiencies/overdoses. So, that's it! We started with a purely synthetic formula and now have one that's foaming furiously with microbes. These release a tonic rich enough to impress the organic-only nazis while keeping the water healthy without effort. Of course, they'd deny what they see before their eyes calling it "impossible" (i.e. the microherd thriving in the presence of synthetic nutes). But, showing them up is half the fun.

 

[Rednick]

I am running Botanicaire PBP this run, with Humbolt Mayan and GH Subculture M...
Purely out of convienience, but I will be watching closely, because I used to just use GH Flora (big yeilds and cheap!)...And the closer I get to organic, the higher the price of store bought nutes.

I am really glad this site learned me in on organic teas. Gonna save a lotta money. And money is good.

 

[Rednick]

"The microherd will be destroyed by the presence of synthetics!"

This is utter NONSENSE.

I think that the herd would love the Ammonium in GH Flora Gro.

And what about that guy who got on the 'Organic' soapbox...
Then goes on to tell us that he uses chems 'cause he is too lazy to do Organic. Make up your mind will you.

 

[TND]

So i got my batch of tea brewing i used a little different ingredients but hopefully with the same results

any way instead of OGM humic and fulvic acid i used liquid fossil fuel Humic and diamond nectar Fulvic and instead of great white i used the GH subculture M and RO water...

i forgot to measure the ec&ph of the water before i added the first set of ingredients but afterwards this is what i got a PH of 5.6 and 442ppm after the first 24hrs the ph was 5.9 and 412ppm not much i presume BB's but anyway i added the rest of the ingredients today..

that brought the ph to 5.7 and 583ppm so we will see what it do in another 24hrs...

 

[pray4pistils]

Cool, let us know how it goes, TND. By the way, the particular microbes that you add to the brew dictate the pH and processing of the foods. So, your experience may turn in different numbers at different rates. I listed my numbers mostly to demonstrate process and to establish some general baselines. pH and ppm swings are more significant than the actual numbers, so pay attention to the data trends more than the actual figures. After you get your technique down you're going to do it by feel, anyway.

Oh, here are some sneak peaks at my current grow (Alaskan Ice and Mazar-i-Sharif) which is starting week 4 of flowering.

Perfect health! Even canopy! Yeah!

That's pretty tight node spacing for a haze-based plant. I attribute the stacking to the kelp and minor spread between day time (hot) and night time (cold) temperatures.

The thickness is getting crazy. So, I spaced the plants out since this photo was taken.

At over 3 feet tall the very bottoms aren't getting as much light as they need to. So, I trimmed the bottom 1/3 of all my girls. I'll get updated photos up soon.