Neem Cake

[paradoxlost]

actually...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4735328/

Cannabis is known to have antiemetic effects, and has been used to relieve nausea and vomiting associated with chemotherapy. The mechanism for this antiemetic effect is unknown, but may be related to cannabinoid receptors exerting a neuromodulatory effect in the brain. The main active chemical of cannabis is delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC).

THC is highly lipophilic and, with chronic use, can accumulate in high concentrations in the body, including in cerebral fat. This can cause severe nausea and vomiting in sensitive patients. THC binds to cannabinoid receptors in the brain, but also to those in the enteric nervous system. Additionally, it slows peristalsis and gastric emptying. Chronic, heavy cannabis use may cause cannabinoid receptors in the gut to override the effect of cannabinoid receptor stimulation in the brain, thereby leading to paradoxical hyperemesis.

Peristalsis: is a series of wave-like muscle contractions that moves food to different processing stations in the digestive tract. The process of peristalsis begins in the esophagus when a bolus of food is swallowed.

I cant believe in the eyes of all this information DG still thinks neem causes a pathogenic condition.

 

[Microbeman]

The CBC interview does not tell much. I believe if it is sold as a soil amendment with no pesticide claims there are few if any restrictions.

Just to be clear, the little fairy tale I posted is meant to forewarn jumping to conclusions without eliminating variables.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Not approved for cannabis is banned for cannabis. Either way it works for me as someone who's sensitive to it.

 

[Elmer Bud]

The CBC interview does not tell much. I believe if it is sold as a soil amendment with no pesticide claims there are few if any restrictions.

Just to be clear, the little fairy tale I posted is meant to forewarn jumping to conclusions without eliminating variables.

G `day MM

I agree .
Sleep easier if you think the problem is solved .

Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[aridbud]

Not approved for cannabis is banned for cannabis. Either way it works for me as someone who's sensitive to it.

Many out there are sensitive to products, whether organic (and not safe) or synthetic. Imagine the incidents will continue.

 

[ozzieAI]

Many out there are sensitive to products, whether organic (and not safe) or synthetic. Imagine the incidents will continue.

of cause they will...those that sprout this anti neem sentiment completely ignore the fact that neem is not the cause of CHS as seen in the evidence that 2 members replies in this thread that have CHS don't use neem...where did their CHS come from is the question we should be asking...

it's smoke and mirrors people...

 

[Samuel Caldwell]

Not approved for cannabis is banned for cannabis. Either way it works for me as someone who's sensitive to it.

Not approved does not mean banned. You are wrong. The words are not synonyms.

Refusing to admit when you are wrong does not help your credibility.

 

[MJPassion]

I like what neem does for me & my plants.

I also KNOW my friends do not experience CHS symptoms when using Aza free cannabis.

There IS correlation.
The cause needs to be found & nobody, as far as I know, is studying this specific subject.

Instead of arguing who’s right or wrong...
because there obviously aren’t any doctors in the house...
Why not develop a list of questions for patients to ask their doctors?

Maybe...
Just MAYBE...
We can get to the bottom of this.

 

[MJPassion]

okay lets take a different approach to this argument:

best stats i found come from 2012

In 2012–2013, 9.52% of US adults used marijuana in the past year
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5037576/

Population of US in 2012: 314,000,000

Total cannabis users = 29,892,800

Cannabinoid Hyperemesis: A Case Series of 98 Patients
Patients were included if there was a history of recurrent vomiting with no other explanation for symptoms and if cannabis use preceded symptom onset. Of 1571 patients identified, 98 patients (6%) met inclusion criteria.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3538402/

Chances of getting CHS is....wait for it...

1 in 305,028

death from:
driving accident = 1 in 77
heart disease = 1 in 4
alcohol or drugs = 1 in 34
firearms = 1 in 77
https://www.cars.com/articles/are-t...rashes-versus-other-fatalities-1420682154567/

so the odds of getting CHS regardless of what is causing it is so ridiculously low yet this is the language getting used:




so if you are concerned about getting CHS...for goodness sake don't drive a car, drink alcohol or have a poor diet...

i have provide multiple sources for how safe neem is in this thread and we know that not all cases of CHS involve neem...

so why is there so much bad press, fake news around this topic?

This is an obvious attempt to make 1 persons health issues insignificant!

What if 1 of those 98 people were your significant other or child?
Would that change the way you look at the issue?

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

MJPassion, you are quite correct. Were it not such a life-debilitating and excruciatingly painful physical issue, I'd not be so adamant about the subject. Ask anyone who's suffered and they'll tell you the same. Having yourself or a loved one go through this is torture on a grand scale, and will definitely change your mind on the subject.

Numbers and odds?
Nobody's really thinking about this properly. I assure you, the current *numbers* are only the beginning. Let's put things in perspective, shall we?

CHS is going to be lowest in states where the medical profession is not familiar with it (cases are misdiagnosed as other problems. Did you know 20-30yr olds are having their gall bladders removed for misdiagnosed CHS?), and also where prohibition reigns, especially if mites are not a big local problem. Why? Because growers do not associate freely and share their bugs with each other. When a state goes legal, whether it's medical or recreational it doesn't matter, growers begin associating more freely. Bugs get passed and the current go-to is neem/aza.

I used cannabis off the street in Nevada for over a decade without issues. I grew without mite issues for over 5 years before moving to a legal state. I moved to California, where growers have associated for well over a decade. As soon as i started using cannabis from California I began experiencing CHS. The dispensaries are loaded with neem/aza products, because it's the standard. I'm almost positive I talked to other CHS sufferers, standing in line for the same opiates and nausea medications I'd been prescribed. (the doctors had ZERO clue in 2008 about CHS in the LA area)

Colorado has done the same, with a huge explosion in growers since A64. There's a huge amount of mite passing and a significant number of growers are using neem/aza. CHS cases at ER's have also significantly increased, which reminds me I need to contact someone about finding those stats, and I'm sure I won't be shocked at the numbers.

This is only the tip of the iceberg though. California is the largest state, with the largest population and they 'juuuuust' went recreationally legal. I'm predicting a surge in CHS cases in ER's across the state. Especially the second year when all the new grower cannabis begins being consumed. Neem/aza is already so prolific there, the chances a grower with mites won't find out about it are slim.

The majority of the legal states have barely begun growing and passing mites, the use of neem/aza is still low and the CHS cases are still low. Nearly half the nation has not gone legal yet, and I shudder to think what the numbers will be with those states added as well.

Am I painting the picture clear enough yet?

 

[paradoxlost]

MJPassion, you are quite correct. Were it not such a life-debilitating and excruciatingly painful physical issue, I'd not be so adamant about the subject. Ask anyone who's suffered and they'll tell you the same. Having yourself or a loved one go through this is torture on a grand scale, and will definitely change your mind on the subject.

Numbers and odds?
Nobody's really thinking about this properly. I assure you, the current *numbers* are only the beginning. Let's put things in perspective, shall we?

CHS is going to be lowest in states where the medical profession is not familiar with it (cases are misdiagnosed as other problems. Did you know 20-30yr olds are having their gall bladders removed for misdiagnosed CHS?), and also where prohibition reigns, especially if mites are not a big local problem. Why? Because growers do not associate freely and share their bugs with each other. When a state goes legal, whether it's medical or recreational it doesn't matter, growers begin associating more freely. Bugs get passed and the current go-to is neem/aza.

I used cannabis off the street in Nevada for over a decade without issues. I grew without mite issues for over 5 years before moving to a legal state. I moved to California, where growers have associated for well over a decade. As soon as i started using cannabis from California I began experiencing CHS. The dispensaries are loaded with neem/aza products, because it's the standard. I'm almost positive I talked to other CHS sufferers, standing in line for the same opiates and nausea medications I'd been prescribed. (the doctors had ZERO clue in 2008 about CHS in the LA area)

Colorado has done the same, with a huge explosion in growers since A64. There's a huge amount of mite passing and a significant number of growers are using neem/aza. CHS cases at ER's have also significantly increased, which reminds me I need to contact someone about finding those stats, and I'm sure I won't be shocked at the numbers.

This is only the tip of the iceberg though. California is the largest state, with the largest population and they 'juuuuust' went recreationally legal. I'm predicting a surge in CHS cases in ER's across the state. Especially the second year when all the new grower cannabis begins being consumed. Neem/aza is already so prolific there, the chances a grower with mites won't find out about it are slim.

The majority of the legal states have barely begun growing and passing mites, the use of neem/aza is still low and the CHS cases are still low. Nearly half the nation has not gone legal yet, and I shudder to think what the numbers will be with those states added as well.

Am I painting the picture clear enough yet?

You just keep talking without posting any kind of supplementary information.



You are the only source in my entire life where I hear about CHS. I smoke a lot of weed. Grow weed. Know homeopaths. My sister's work as nurses in ERs. I've worked in grows in Nevada, Colordo, Pennsylvania. You keep talking about, I gotta find those numbers. But they aren't there.

 

[ozzieAI]

I like what neem does for me & my plants.

I also KNOW my friends do not experience CHS symptoms when using Aza free cannabis.

There IS correlation.
The cause needs to be found & nobody, as far as I know, is studying this specific subject.

Instead of arguing who’s right or wrong...
because there obviously aren’t any doctors in the house...
Why not develop a list of questions for patients to ask their doctors?

Maybe...
Just MAYBE...
We can get to the bottom of this.

if you were really genuine about this and do want to get to the 'bottom' of this then how about taking into account ALL the facts and not just the ones that match your desired commentary?

how about the facts that i have presented and you have ignored:
1)two ICMAG members who have contributed to this thread and have CHS said that they don't use neem
2) accredited people have put forth an explanation on what is causing CHS

discuss...

What if 1 of those 98 people were your significant other or child?
Would that change the way you look at the issue?

not really...would i try giving them cannabis that is neem free...yeah i would give it a go...do i think it will fix the problem....no...

Did you know 20-30yr olds are having their gall bladders removed for misdiagnosed CHS?

no i didn't..where did you get this information?

Am I painting the picture clear enough yet?

NO...you haven't been able to confirm any of your claims...not even been able to present something as simple as a facebook post of a person you have helped, or has recovered for CHS by removing neem from their cannabis...

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

If it's worth it, I'm sure someone will quote it.

(edit: I was pointed to the gall bladder removal comment)

In addition to running into a mid-20's kid a few weeks ago who had theirs removed due to CHS, I've come across several references to healthy gall bladders being removed for CHS. At my suggestion, the kid quit using neem/aza tainted cannabis and his CHS is gone, even though he's still using cannabis. Unfortunately, he won't have a gall bladder for life.

I've run across other reports of "perfectly healthy gall bladders" being tossed in the trash by surgeons. Surgeons are not paid to diagnose, they're paid to remove what the doctor says needs to be removed.

A 2 second search for CHS and gall bladder removal...

Erica

Tammy,
My husband suffers from CHS as well and i can’t begin to tell you how it’s affected all of our lives. I have been with him for 20 years and he has puked incessantly since the day I met him and been a VERY heavy marijuana user as well. He has been to every doctor, specialist you can think of. He’s been to the Cleveland Clinic , had every test possible and even had his gall bladder out. All they could tell us was Cyclic Vomiting Syndrome but no one knew the cause or could give him relief. No medicine would help …. just baths. So many hot baths that he would go through every towel in the house and it would go on for days when it was a bad bout. He would blame the sickness on something he ate, drank too much milk, ate too fast, etc etc. to say it’s been frustrating and maddening it has been for the last 20 years doesn’t even scratch the surface.

5 more seconds and another case of gall bladder removal in a CHS patient.

Radiological workup describes sludge and small gall stones within the gall bladder without evidence of acute cholecystitis. Considering the history with the atypical pain pattern and vomiting, the diagnosis of symptomatic gall stone disease was retained and a laparoscopic cholecystectomy was performed in August 2015. After an initial clinical improvement, the patient relapses and presents the same symptoms few weeks later, without any change in intensity.

Anyone else care to go through the other 72 THOUSAND results?

 

[aridbud]

^^^^Great idea...questions to Dr. I just recall a few dispensaries in SO CO being called out for using products. And recall ER reports from Pueblo that CHS is on the rise, and speculated correlation between store bought nugs (rec) and contaminants...not overdosing.

 

[ozzieAI]

but no mention of neem...other than a link to your blog under your banned name 'the clean game'...

don't get me wrong i believe CHS is real...but your total ignorance to any other views/options/facts to the contrary weakens your argument. the fact that you can't even discuss this directly with me when i spend the time to present FACTS from ACCREDITED sources shows how fragile your case is...

so to attempt to reach some common ground how about this...why do some people with CHS react to neem and others don't?

 

[ozzieAI]

can't discuss with me in public but can abuse me in private...your game is weak Dougy...

 

[paradoxlost]

If it's worth it, I'm sure someone will quote it.

(edit: I was pointed to the gall bladder removal comment)

In addition to running into a mid-20's kid a few weeks ago who had theirs removed due to CHS, I've come across several references to healthy gall bladders being removed for CHS. At my suggestion, the kid quit using neem/aza tainted cannabis and his CHS is gone, even though he's still using cannabis. Unfortunately, he won't have a gall bladder for life.

I've run across other reports of "perfectly healthy gall bladders" being tossed in the trash by surgeons. Surgeons are not paid to diagnose, they're paid to remove what the doctor says needs to be removed.

A 2 second search for CHS and gall bladder removal...


5 more seconds and another case of gall bladder removal in a CHS patient.



Anyone else care to go through the other 72 THOUSAND results?

Wait so your evidence is from a fucking comments section on a group website????? Not even like a doctor's forum, just like a healthcare group website, whatever that means.



Bull shit


and if that story was true, all he had to do was to stop smoking marijuana. When she says he's vomited every day since the day I met him, wtf? I mean maybe at first they didn't know. But they know now, and it sounds like he's still suffering.



Here's an easy experiment actually:


Azadiractin and THC have different half-lives in the body. If CHS is from azadiractin than it will go away in that predictable sequence and vice versa. Personally I think that these cases have nothing to do with cannabinoids. At the very most it is an allergy because I think there are a lot more people than you realize that smoke all day every day and CHS is not a thing to the vast majority of weed smokers.




https://www.marijuanatimes.org/fina...is-hyperemesis-syndrome-that-readers-deserve/


Switching strains stopped it. So it may actually be one of the over 500 phytochemicals that are produced by cannabis. Not something from the one plant that may be safer than cannabis.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Great idea...questions to Dr. I just recall a few dispensaries in SO CO being called out for using products. And recall ER reports from Pueblo that CHS is on the rise, and speculated correlation between store bought nugs (rec) and contaminants...not overdosing.

Same thing in the rockies after A64 passed, as far as CHS cases increasing.


Anyone know offhand how hospitals and health clinics handle this data? Are there reports available the doctors go over to see the trends? I know someone must be tracking it for insurance purposes. I'd like to see an honest survey from surgeons who do gall bladder removals, regarding how many healthy looking ones they've removed over the last 10-15 years.

 

[aridbud]

Same thing in the rockies after A64 passed, as far as CHS cases increasing.


Anyone know offhand how hospitals and health clinics handle this data? Are there reports available the doctors go over to see the trends? I know someone must be tracking it for insurance purposes. I'd like to see an honest survey from surgeons who do gall bladder removals, regarding how many healthy looking ones they've removed over the last 10-15 years.

Regarding ER reports, I saw it on the local news when I lived in SO CO and thereafter. Two news reports, but I'm sure Colorado Health Department has statistics.

https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/cdphe/2018-medical-marijuana-registry-statistics

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

It's worse than I thought.

1-2 patients a day

He (Dr. Kennon Heard, a professor of emergency medicine and medical toxicology and pharmacology at the University of Colorado School of Medicine) says this phenomenon is on the rise, with his office seeing one or two patients a day, as well as potentially many more with similar symptoms that he believes don’t seek medical attention.

One office. 1-2 patients a day. How many offices across the states, and how many more people who don't seek treatment?

Up to 1/3rd may be affected

the authors estimated that up to 2.7 million of the 8.3 million Americans known to smoke marijuana on a daily or near-daily basis may suffer from at least occasional bouts of C.H.S.