Name This Deficiency

[chizarium]

More info and new pictures

More info and new pictures

Thanks a lot guys

Here's some more info and pictures:

1. Are you growing from seed or clones? - Clones
2. How old are your plants? - youngest: 6 weeks, oldest: 11 weeks (both including veg)
3. How tall are your plants? - 2 feet tall
4. What type of hydro system are you using? - DWC buckets (2 gal)
5. What brand/type of nutrients are you using? - GH Flora 3-part
6. What is the Ph of your nutrient solution? - 5.7 to 6.0
7. What is the PPM/EC of your tap water? - 130ppm
8. What is the PPM/EC of your nutrient solution? - i've tried 800ppm, 950ppm, and 1200ppm during flowering
9. What is the temperature of your nutrient solution? - dont know for sure, feels about 70-75
10. Does your PPM/EC show a rise or fall when you do your daily PPM check? - Fall
11. Does your pH show a rise or fall when you do your daily check? - Both, it varies
12. Do you foliar feed or spray your plants with anything? - Nope
13. What kind of lights do you use and how many watts combined? - 250watt HPS
14. How close are your lights to the plants? - 18"
15. What size is your grow space in square feet? - 2.5' x 2.5' (about 6.25 sq ft)
16. What is the temperature and humidity in your grow space? - temps: 75 day / 65 night; humidity: ~40-50%
17. Have you noticed any insect activity in your grow space? - the original mother plant (in soil) had fungus gnats, but that plant is long gone (these plants are clones from that plant)
18. How much experience do you have growing? - 5 years

These are pictures of plant #1 (other plants in posts below)

 

[chizarium]

Plant #2

Plant #2

pics of plant #2

 

[chizarium]

Plant #3

Plant #3

pics of plant #3

 

[Scrogerman]

Calcium-(Lack-of!!!)

Calcium-(Lack-of!!!)

Hey Fella,
Definate Ca deficiency Buddy', could be caused by several things/reasons. Flush your medium & pots etc totally through to start with(i'd say lock-out personally). Mix fresh feed up, use more of the part that contains Ca, set your P.H to 5.6 ish for optimum Ca absorbsion (Check This). Be carefull trying to correct this problem with addatives fella, as you could lock out loads of other stuff in the attempt. A foliar application may be a good one to look into, as i said just be carefull, maybe run some controls seeing as its an on going concern and check this page out in the infirmary and have a good think about it yourself.
(The Complete guide to Sick Plants,pH, and Pest troubles!) Also, it seem like you may have a bacteria issue going on in your RES' there too, as your P.h is going down aswell, there are quite a few variables to consider on this one dude.
I wish you the Best of Luck fella.
Peace & Respect - 'Scrogerman' (UK)

 

[foaf]

Im an all out scheptic about the whole leaf whisperer thing. I mean being able to take a fairly non specific leaf discoloration and come up with some correct deficiency or overage on some specific nutrient. Im a scientist by trade and a chemist by training and Im trained to be scheptical and I hope practical.

From a practical standpoint, in DWC it all boils down to "what ya gonna do?" and for me the answer is always the same. Dump your res, rinse your plant, and start with fresh nutrients based on the label in the mid range of ppms.

That said, I always add CalMag to my Gh nutrients because whenever these threads come up, the leaf whisperers most often go to calcium or magnesium deficiencies or lock out, and cal mag is cheap and smells nice. And if, as youve mentioned, you have had this before and with calmag, then Id change nutes. I use GH Flora Nova and it never gives me issues when mixed with calmag and dosed in the mid range.

 

[Scrogerman]

Mosaic virus, i'm always washing my hands after skinning up(paranoid), as tobbaco carries the virus and can be transferred to your plants via your hands. But it aint that, as that looks more like Mg def rather than the Ca def which i'm 95% sure it is which you have.

Peace-Out...................Scrogerman'

(i'm referring to MJ conditions- but this one is not that common-just one ive seen)

 

[Moldy Dreads]

This has been happening for multiple crops now and I've been trying different things to try and correct the issue to no avail

I've also grown other strains in this exact setup with the same exact nutrient mixes and they did not have this issue

The strain with the issue in the pictures is El Nino by GHS

I think you answered you're own question. I've had these deficient rusty leaves on some plants before and one of my strains is showing it lightly now in soil, while no other genetics nearby are. I usually get rid of the genetic that does this as I never really found a cure-all for this genetic weakness IMVHO. Yes, it boils down to a deficiency, but what is causing it IMO is not the grower, you could dial it in better, but I doubt it will ever go away completely. That is just my experience with that particular deficiency that never goes away when different ways of growing are tried, and it seems you do everything pretty standard. I also tried for a few batches to dial in these problematic phenos, but ended up with these dark spots and rust looking deficiencies no matter what. I'd just flower them out, as they will still produce nice buds, and move on to new genetics unless the herb is out of this world and you don't mind growing ugly plants (leaves)..

 

[EvilTwin]

chizarium,
Just one more idea to put into the mix.
Iron excess is characterized by multiple small brown spots. Is the combination of nutes you're providing heavy in iron?

Is there an iron fixture or screw somewhere that's in contact with nute solution? Rusting and introducing iron into the system? Not saying this is likely, but it is a possible explanation.

I don't exactly know whether Scrogman is suggesting Mg or Ca deficiency. I vote no on the mg.
ET

Ps: Just noticed Moldy Dreads sumultaneous post. Sure, genetic weakness is always an issue...but with that strain, I'd think that weakness would be identified.

 

[Moldy Dreads]

Ps: Just noticed Moldy Dreads sumultaneous poast. Sure, genetic weakness is always an issue...but with that strain, I'd think that weakness would be identified.

What do you mean? Any seed could sprout with a defect in the genetics. Are you saying that breeder is immune to a plant with some mutation or defect?

 

[EvilTwin]

What do you mean? Any seed could sprout with a defect in the genetics. Are you saying that breeder is immune to a plant with some mutation or defect?

Moldy,
Chill Dude...

What I'm saying is that well known strains are grown enough so that any consistent weakness would be identified by the many growers who are out there growing the same strain.

An example of what I'm saying is that White Widow and hybrids of it are prone to deficiency of Magnesium. It's a strain weakness that everybody knows.

So what your saying is that Chizarium's strain is a sport? A one-off mutation in which a calcium metabolism issue is manifest? Certainly possible. I guess I misunderstood your post. Shit happens.
ET

 

[morrisgreenberg]

hey guys mind if i chime in? foaf and scroger are right, first order of business when everything you have tried is to flush, when in doubt flush it out. firast thing i noticed from the pix is you see your leave's edges are folding down? this is a tad too much nitrogen, the plant isnt happy, this lucas formula is not built for all strains and your strain looks to be a low N feeder. i do not agree on a one size fits all feeding regiment and as for your tap water, it is advised that abything under or close to 100ppm tap water be supplemented with calmag. too much of one mineral will lock out others and such. do you flush your plants monthly? i know in dwc flushing is a pain but a must. if what i am saying makes any sense i would after a flush ofcourse try a lower N with 5ml of calmag/gal, if you flush monthly you will never have lock outs

 

[Scrogerman]

chizarium,
Just one more idea to put into the mix.
Iron excess is characterized by multiple small brown spots. Is the combination of nutes you're providing heavy in iron?

Is there an iron fixture or screw somewhere that's in contact with nute solution? Rusting and introducing iron into the system? Not saying this is likely, but it is a possible explanation.

I don't exactly know whether Scrogman is suggesting Mg or Ca deficiency. I vote no on the mg.
ET

Ps: Just noticed Moldy Dreads sumultaneous post. Sure, genetic weakness is always an issue...but with that strain, I'd think that weakness would be identified.

Hey 'ET'
LOL- I was saying that mosaic virus mimics Mg Def- That little problem our man has there looks like a typical Ca def to me dude, had it myself (slight), Flushed, corrected P.H increased E.C, problem went away. Although looks like the problem lies with a sensitive pheno in this instance. I really would look into a liquid calcium foliar application if i was in this very position.
Peace-out dude........Scrogerman!

 

[EvilTwin]

Hey 'ET'
LOL- I was saying that mosaic virus mimics Mg Def- That little problem our man has there looks like a typical Ca def to me dude, had it myself (slight), Flushed, corrected P.H increased E.C, problem went away. Although looks like the problem lies with a sensitive pheno in this instance.
Peace-out dude........Scrogerman!

No sweat Dude...we're on the same page. One issue that has me a little confused is a grow that I had a couple years ago. Brown spotted leaves that resolved when I switched to RO water.

What I'm thinking, though I haven't heard of this happening, is a Ca++ lockout from too much Ca++. Is that even possible?
ET

 

[Skrappie]

have you tried to lower the range PH.

Also

Can we see your roots?

I'm doing DWC ATM and have had the same issue and coco and dwc, though my issue tends to end up more necrotic than the plants you've shown tend to develop.

I've been following hydro-soil's advice of lowering the PH at first fill to about 5.3 and I know it sounds a little crazy, but i drop the PH down to about 6.0 before even adding the GH set. I don't know whats in my water of 300 ppm before I add my nutes, but whatever is in there I think causes the problem, there is some sort of chemical binding and precipitation going on that I'm not smart of enough to nail quite yet, though I do know a lot of what we want to have in our nutrient solution starts to precipitate (to what degree I don't know) around PH 6.5, if your tap has high PH i',m curious as to if that happens as soon as nutrients are added to unadjusted water?

I ramble;

I can't give you a scientific answer, but its something about the water man, I'm still trying to figure it out. I may just have to get a RO filter, though I'm not sure its necessary .



Good luck fellow grower.

 

[Scrogerman]

'Ca-Def'

'Ca-Def'

Sounds almost viable, you would get all-sorts of lock-out dude. "Calcium is not a mobile element in the plant and is "not well taken up by the roots". Foliar applications are effective provided the spray is well formulated to allow the calcium to be taken into the plant effectively". Seems like this is where the awnser lies in this paticular case.
'your issue a couple of years ago, again, would point to some sort of lock-out(imho)!?!then with you switching to R.O h2o, fine!
This problem lies with a paticular El_Nino pheno if i'm not mistaken that is showing sensitivity/Ca def. Several other Breeds were grown out exactly the same way, but only the El-Nino was showing a Ca def. Looks like a pheno issue to me dude. What you think?

'Peace & Respect' - 'Scrogerman (UK)' just my
Ps- I'm sure elevated levels of Sodium in the water can cause Ca lock too, maybe that was an issue with your h2o before you switched to R.O

 

[delta9nxs]

hi, chizarium!

hi, chizarium!

sorry for your problems. if it is any consolation almost everyone goes through variations of the usual suspects.

first thing is that it may not be a deficiency at all. the first 2 photos you show look more like water stress of some kind. you are running dwc. how far do you let the res level fall before topping? if it is more than about 2 cm and 12 hrs have elapsed you have probably grown a few air roots in that space. you then bring the level back up and essentially "drown" them. you let the level fall again and repeat the process. those light brown spots focused on the veins are classic. also the turned down leaf edges.

you are using top quality, brand name nutes, you ph is right, your tds is in line, humidity looks good. makes me start thinking about environmental factors. the only variable could be your water. two waters at 130 ppm can be radically different and the only way to find out is to do an analysis. i personally had leaves that looked just like that and the plant quit producing them when i went to ro water. cheaper to buy a ro filter than have a pro analysis done.

the calcium in some tap waters may be in the carbonate form, which is hard for plants to take up and can cause interactions with your "good" calcium. it can also totally or partially lock out "good" calcium as the calcium carbonate molecule can be physically too large to pass into the plant and then blocks entry to the "good" calcium.

in an effort to correct this cycle you put in more calcium, which at this point simply exacerbates the problem.

the first thing would be to see if your letting the water levels wander around a bit too much. if so correct it and watch. if that doesn't do it i would go to a cheap ro filter. if the problem persist try 100 ppm calcium nitrate and 50ppm magnesium sulfate in addition to your regular nutes at around 750 ppm at the .5 conversion. ec 1.5 and with the cal-nit and mag it all should add up to around ec 1.8-1.9.

over in my ppk thread i'm going to post some leaf photos soon.

i really hope this helps, later on, d9

 

[Scrogerman]

Thanks for the reply

This has been happening for multiple crops now and I've been trying different things to try and correct the issue to no avail

I've also grown other strains in this exact setup with the same exact nutrient mixes and they did not have this issue

The strain with the issue in the pictures is El Nino by GHS

Here are some details of my setup:

> 250watt HPS

> Hydro DWC (2 Gal)

> Nutrients: 3-part GH Flora - tried Lucas formula first, then tried adding CalMag to Lucas formula, then tried going by directions on bottle, then tried adding CalMag to directions on bottle (testing these mixes on 3 different plants)

> pH: drifts between 5.7-6.0 - pH checked and adjusted daily

> Temps: ~75 day, ~65 night

> Humidity: 40-50%

The main thing I don't understand is why the problem would continue to get worse after adding CalMag to the nutes, and also why my leaves do not really look like the leaves in the pictures for Mg or Ca deficiencies

Dude'- Chizarium says it's only the El-Nino he is having this issue with, still sounds like a sensitive pheno issue!

Be - lucky ............ Scrogerman!
P.h & Ca lock -out issues!!!!!

 

[Scrogerman]

P.h & Ca lock -out issues!!!!!

Good luck with it all anyway dude hope you get it sorted- I wouldent try to correct the issue by adding more Ca to the res personally.I think this will just make it worst- get a good calcium foliar spray buddy.

Good luck
Scrogerman

 

[dominicangreen]

is this plant near a ballast heat cause this too

 

[morrisgreenberg]

i would have to agree with scroger again! you can foliar the ca since it doest not travel well within the plant , it takes a long time to even develope a deficiencie with micro nute so it also take a while to correct, i should have mentioned this in my post