Name that deficiency

[nuggluvv]

A little background info...

Seeds or clones, source? clones
How old are the plants? week 4 bloom
How big are the plants? 20"
Lighting wattage & distance? 1000w @ 2.5 ft
Soil ingredients or hydro system? hydro
Container size? ebb & flow table
Watering frequency? How do you judge this? 1 hr 4 times per day
Fertilizers used and how often? SuperBloom A/B
How do you ventilate the space? Active exhaust
Other details? Include photos if possible.

I have included 3 pictures: one showing early signs, and two showing later signs. Veins of affected leaves and entire plants red (not due to strain, but unhappiness). Problem begins with interveinal chlorosis on older fan leaves. Then these leaves develop necrotic regions, but generally not on leaf margins (but from center of leaf).

Plants suffering from what appears to be mixture(?) of deficiencies. Mg most likely as best I can tell, but uncertain. Must stem from problems in root zone. Roots rotting in tray, covered in dark brown slime. Could this be due to cold res temps? No res thermometer, but it's pretty cold in the basement (concrete floor, but res sitting on piece of insulation.

Atmosphere not as constant as in times past. New room; not all kinks worked out yet. DIF (difference in night and day temps) is around 20F. Gets down to low 60's F at night.

Grew same strain a couple of months ago with no problems. Any assistance greatly appreciated.

 

[fooldall]

The intraveinal chloriosis and the rust colored spots and eventual necrosis leads me to believe you're spot on the Mg def diagnosis. What is your pH, and are you using Tap water? I had a simliar issue when I was having problems with pH flux AND a large amount of calcium in the water. Add a pinch or two of Epsom salts in your next res change and see if the problem halts.
Some yellowing is to be expected in the final weeks of flowering, but what we're seeing here is DEF an Mg deficiency- then again, it might be due to the root rot you're experiencing.

That brings up another question - how often are you changing your res?

 

[nuggluvv]

Thanks for the quick response fooldall.

That is the strange thing. I use RO water (water around here sux), and reservoir changes are occurring every couple of weeks. I will give the epsom salt thing a try, but I have also added CalMag Plus to the solution to try to alleviate the problem.

Mg is less available at lower pH values, and I have also had trouble keeping the pH up. This is in contradiction to what normally occurs; as with most hydro systems, I am generally having to bring the pH down a little every few days. It seems I read somewhere that this could be a sign of a K deficiency also?

Anyone think that cold res temeratures cold be part of the cause?

Thanks for all the help. Let's learn from my mistakes together.

 

[nuggluvv]

Oops, I also forgot to mention that the entire stalk and all stems of plants are turning red. This is not an attribute of the particular strain either. Any thoughts?

 

[Sleepy]

i think if you are suffering rot at cold temperatures, the system needs a good cleaning...and more frequent reservoir changes.

be careful that you do not have a Mg overdose from pH out of range...

calibrate meters, CLEAN EVERYTHING (pumps, hoses, etc...)

whatever you do, it will take 5-7 days until you see improvement...

before adding anything else, i would correct the pH and rot issues.

best of luck.

 

[Guest]

Use a more complete fertilizer regime, and back off of it a ltitle bit.

My initial reaction is overt fert, which can lead to lockout of Mg, among others. Overfert is very tricky, becuase it locks out a lot of elements, that show up on the leaves... saying that merely adding epson salts will fix this is tenuous at best...

change res, PH to 5.5-6.0, use light fertilizer mix. What is the EC of your tap water? and PH of tap water? Are you using any medium? All these things will influence your PH which can also cause lockout of nutrients.

If you have access to General Hydroponics, it is the industry standard and baseline for all hydroponics here in the U.S. There are many many many people who can help you with GH products.


keep the faith, you'll get it

 

[Guest]

nuggluv if the temps in your reservoir are to low buy a fish tank heater and put it in it. I used to have to do that when I was in hydro.JMHO

Good luck
GCG

 

[Guest]

my thought is the root rot is preventing all nute uptake... do a thorough cleaning f your res, and start adding h2o2 to help clear up the rot. be sure to use enough to sanitize, but not enough to kill healthy roots! cu8t back on your ferts fo a week to let the plant recover and not help the rot along!

 

[Guest]

I would empty your reservoirs and replace with strait r/o water for one light cycle(12 hours at least) and then add your nutes at 1/4 strength in a five gallon bucket and check ph and consetricity(sp) of the dilution. This should flip your lockout problem if it is in fact that. Looks like mag and Potassium(K) defiency or lockout from here.

Hydro ph 5.8-6.1

Flood for 15 minutes every 4 hours while lights on and once for 15 minutes right in the middle of lights out. If using Ready Gro you can cut floods in half as far as time and frequency. If rocks, 15 minutes every 3-4 hours is plenty.

Super bloom can cook plants if your not carefull. It can load your media to toxic levels if not flushed regularly.

20 degree temp variance is no big deal but it will make most of your plants turn purple.

Red veins are usually mag def. in my setup and I don't really sweat it, i just adjust the mix a little.

What are ppm of your mix?

SM-90 for root rot

Tex

 

[Guest]

hey TK , i use sm-90 but didnt know it helped with root rot .
just curious what is does to aid in root rot ?

i use it for a wetting agent and also as a foliar spray for mite control

glad to know it does more than i thought !

EB

 

[Guest]

SM-90 is a root disease inhibitor which controls common anaerobic fungal and bacterial pathogens. Effective treatment for root disease from ascomycetes pathogens including fusarium, pythium, rhizoctonia, phytopthera, sclerotinia, etc. When added in small quantities directly to plant nutrient solutions, root disease infestations are inhibited and new root growth emerges. Treated plants develop greater root area and root runs and exhibit a generally healthier root development

Tex

 

[Guest]

wow all those bennies and i didnt even know
btw i dig how it smells too

thanks a million TK

 

[nuggluvv]

Hey guys, thanks for all the advice (good stuff Texas Kid). This is just freaking me out a bit because I have many grows under the belt and haven't run across this problem before. I recently moved to a colder climate and the garden is situated closer to the outdoors (and on a concrete floor). I think the problem originally stemmed from cold temps, which caused root rot and inability for plants to take up Mg (since Mg is one of the first elements to be locked out by cold temps). I have always had a bit of trepidation towards putting a heater in a reservoir, as it goes against the basic principles of maintaining the highest oxygen levels possible in the solution. I see now that sometimes it is necessary.

I appreciate the other advice concerning feeding schedules and nutrient concentration levels, but I am very familiar with this strain and the levels it likes. Overfertilization is not the culprit. Although I have recently switched from rockwool trays to a modified ebb and flow setup, I know the feeding schedule I am currently using is proven successful; 30 minutes every 4 hours. Concerning the concentration levels of the solution, it is currently only 1.0 EC, 500 PPM KCl scale, 700 PPM NaCl scale (take your pick). I lowered it a bit from the time of the initial symptoms, but not much. I have been fighting to keep the pH between 5.8-6.5, but it is always wanting to drop. This is unusual of course, since healthy plants generally produce a stable to slightly rising pH. But this fits our hypothesis. The cold temps kept plants from Mg uptake, and this in turn has caused dropping pH levels.

I should have been more thorough with the description of my fertilizer regimen. In addition to the Super Bloom A/B, the plants also get regular doses of Liquid Karma, Hygrozyme, and the occasional Cal-Mag Plus shot. Kool Bloom liquid generally used after the first 1 1/2 weeks of bloom, but not yet on this harvest (unfortunately).

I have placed a heater in the reservoir, I am going to flush and then add only Epsom salts for a day, then add a low PPM mix of Bloom A/B and Liquid Karma. Does that sound like a good plan?

I will post results and let you guys know what happens. Thanks so much, and hopefully someone can avoid this problem in the future. It is outstanding that a place exists where like-minded folks can come together to discuss our craft. Keep growin', keep livin'.

 

[Guest]

What is the grow media? ya changed your feeding cyles from the start of the thread from 1 hour 4 times a day to :30 minutes every 4 hours, oversite?

Hydroguard will also help with res. and root health as well as the SM90

What causes the ph to fluctuate so much?

Why the epson salt in the regime? for the K? my experience with epson salt was bad and I have not found a way to use it very effectively without a constant fight with ph levels, so I don't even consider it when trying to fix a defiency of any kind.

I use Cal-Mag from start to finish as a staple in the regime, the "occasional shot" is no where near enough for hungry ladies in bloom. That may be a bigger culprit in the Mg and K lookin defiency in the pics. Especially if you are using r/o water, city water is a little more fortified therefore forgiving but r/o is stripped so it takes a real good shot every time you add nutes to the res.

Kool bloom is toxic from my experience, can nute burn with the quickness and a real bitch to fully flush out at the end, granted that didn't cause this problem because you had yet to use it. Top Max from BioBizz is an excellent 100% organic bloom booster as well as Hydroplex from Botanicare.

Go with a more organic regime and use PBP grow and bloom with LK, Cal-Mag Plus, Hydrogaurd, and Hydroplex as a bloom booster. NO PH FLUCTUATIONS.....PERIOD....full proof, well idiot proof in my case. I'll toss in a little Silica Blast early little bit in veg of clones or seedlings most of the time. I have been playing with "Sweet" but some of the compounds are redundant since they flipped the formula back to the original mix. They have a Seaweed blast also but I do not use it.

I also run nutes at a much more aggressive level because I can with the organics with no fear of blastin the plants. I start at like 600-800 in veg with my full regime and ramp it up to about 1000ppm right before tossing in the flower room. I then start my flower regime at around 900-1000 and ramp up to 1400ppm and sit there till I flush. I will overlap the veg and the flower nutes just a little to get just a little more N right at the biginning and then week two go full flower with stronger P and K levels.

I think temps are less of a factor imho

Oh yea. light hieght at 2.5 feet over canopy? move that 1000 watter down on'm. I like my 600w's no more than 8" off the tops and most of the time they are closer than that. Just get the heat out of there and your good.

Hot/warm water retains or creates more/higher oxygen levels than cold water?

Tex

 

[nuggluvv]

Oops, my bad on that one. The first mention of the feeding schedule should have been 1/2 hour. Sorry about that.

Media: heavy duty net cups filled with Hydroton, suspended from cover over 4x4 ebb&flow tray.

I'm not sure what is causing the pH fluctuation, as it hasn't really been an issue before (although with the recent move came the necessity for the RO filter; didn't need or use one before).

Wow, glad to hear about your experiences with Kool Bloom. I used a different PK boost in the past quite successfully, so I thought I would try the Kool Bloom. Is Top Max really the same type of product as Kool Bloom? I mean Top Max is a great product and Bloom enhancer, but I was under the impression that it was more for taste, flower site production, and food for beneficials. Aren't I correct in saying it only consists of molasses and kelp?

TK, I know plenty of folks that are extremely happy with an organic feeding schedule very similar to yours, however most of them are in soilless mixes. In a system with no organic media for beneficials to colonize, do you think the Botanicare feeding schedule will prove successful?

Thanks so much for the quality input.

 

[Guest]

Your part of most people now bro, your growin in a soiless mix of hydrotron. Expanded clay pellets are not exactly an organic playground for benificials to colonize. I wouldn't worry to much about that after all your plants are not responding to the benificial colonies now. Your regime does not seem complete
to me especially for r/o water. You have to remember that r/o water is stripped of all goodies, mine is about 22ppm which is nothing.

It's all about organics and Top Max is 100% OMRI certified organic and Kool Bloom is a chemical nutreint base. Top Max is a complete bloom booster that will inhace the taste but that is just a bonus and it smells like death as well. Molasses and Kelp are two of the 100+ others that are in there. Overdrive from Advanced Nutreints is another good booster for a P and K boost.

I do not like long flush periods because it cuts down on finish yeilds in my opinion, so the longer I can run it up to the end with my regime the better. When I ran chems, I would have to flush 10-14 days minimum to get everything that was effecting the taste and burn out. Even with flushing agent it takes much longer. Organic base nutes can be flushed in a few days the way I do it.

Botanicare's Pure Blend Pro line of primary and supplimental ammendments will fix all your concerns and then some.

I love the stuff because it works great

Tex

 

[sunnyside]

good discussion fellas...I have been using the A&B that your using nuggluvv. With Karma/TopMax(veg/flower) and FF's PK's...with No deficiencies. I use hard water so Cal-Mag is only added when I see a deficiency. I dont think that your base nutrients are necesarelly your problem. It could be PART of the problem, but not the WHOLE problem. I DONT think that a change in base nutes will solve the problem. I think a constant supply of Cal-Mag will help. I think staying on top of pH fluctuations will help. I think a constant res temp will help. I think sm-90 and or hydrogaurd and or hygrozime will help. I think not taking 7 day VACATIONS will help. LMAO...Just my opinion.

Hey TK..I've used pbp with my soil/soilless for awhile, but haven't tried yet with my dro. I am still a little green when it comes to my water gardening experience.... I wanted to get the basics down before I got to the more advanced organic hydro. I think I am ready, and I also think I will take your advice to use pbp. I will be using ready-gro in a ebb n flow setup. Any suggestions on cycle frequency or duration? Any suggestions in general?

 

[Guest]

Come on in Sunny, the water's fine.lol. Funny thing is that I can't grow in dirt, go figure. Something even more crazy.......I have not washed or even rinsed my grow rocks in over a year. They are continous rotation and never cleaned in any way. I dump the rocks right out of the plant pots I just cut to dry and put them into a new pot with a clone or seedling whatever. Oh yeh, I don't wash my pots either, never. I guess my point is hydro should not be scary for people to try, it is actually more forgiving, imho, than soil once you get into it. I never check my ph either, don't even have the meter anymore.

Flood cycles on ReadyGro can be less frequent for sure because that stuff holds alot of water when it is soaked. I would go like 10 minutes every three or four hours. I did it once a for 10 minutes for awhile just to see what happened and it worked good that way as well, no problems.

Tex

 

[nuggluvv]

I think you are right TK; nutrient regimen needs to be a little more well-rounded. This is only my second grow with an RO filter after years of using tap water. The odd thing is that the grow immediately prior to this one, of same strain, ended up pretty darn good, with no deficiencies (other than the intentional N def in late bloom).

Out of curiosity, what medium do you prefer with your current setup? What are you doing to proliferate beneficials? Are you constantly mixing nutes in your reservoir to keep oxygen levels up? Are you adding any other bacteria than Hydroguard?

Good to see you Sunny. And actually that was a 10 day vacation, and probably the ultimate cause of all my troubles. Man, STS9 on NYE was fun, but not that fun.

Keep the good ideas flowing. The cross of hydro with the world of organics and all related beneficial organisms is the new frontier.

 

[Guest]

Tap water has a ton of stuff in it and you really have to pump up distilled or r/o water to compensate for the lack of base nutreints.

I like the Hydrotron rocks or Lava rocks from Home Depot. I was big on the Ready-Gro for awhile but after a few runs I switched back to rocks. The ready gro is real dusty and hard to handle, at least the way I do it. plus you can't re-use and I grew out a couple 100 plants last year so it adds up. Rocks seem to help me maintain a much healtier root mass and the clay media can actually dry out pretty quick and drain away which I like plus the final flush is easier because there is less retention or loading of the nutes like is possible with the ready gro. Don't get me wrong it is good stuff and you can transplant in a fraction of the time over rocks but I just didn't take to it as much as I would need to to justify a change from rocks.

Don't do anything to proliferate benificials at all, deos it all on it's own I guess. Hydrogaurd in very very very small amounts is all I use to condition my tanks.

I add nutes just about every time I top off my reservoirs and when I flush and start fresh. The 18-25 plants I flower on my 4x4 table are drinking about 450-500 gallons of water over the 8 or 9 weeks of flower. If it is hot a little more. I have airstones in the bottom of my reservoirs to keep the nutes mixed in the dilution good and to airiate the water. I drain and start fresh every two or three weeks.

Tex