FRANKIE1579
Member
Sorry for the multiple posts people but I have 1 million questions. Greyskull, can I ask what your experiences with similar plants is? And how did they turn out/what measures were used to combat it
-
Happy Birthday ICMag! Been 20 years since Gypsy Nirvana created the forum! We are celebrating with a 4/20 Giveaway and by launching a new Patreon tier called "420club". You can read more here.
-
Important notice: ICMag's T.O.U. has been updated. Please review it here. For your convenience, it is also available in the main forum menu, under 'Quick Links"!
Mosaic virus and Cannabis, Chem D etc...
- Thread starter VerdantGreen
- Start date
Sorry for the multiple posts people but I have 1 million questions. Greyskull, can I ask what your experiences with similar plants is? And how did they turn out/what measures were used to combat it
i brought into the garden Larry OG, SFV OF, Hells Angels OG, and ChemD together
a few weeks later i saw the first "thing" - Grape Romulan which previously did nto display the 'trait' was suddently displaying the hooks with the discoloration on the inside of the curl
a few days later i noticed the new growth was coming out very necrotic and brittle - much like the first 2 pictures you posted.
i got scarred and killed the plant immediatley. it was a big mom.
then i flower a light of sourdubble, which had been a bulletproof superstar previously, and i noticed they were slower in developing than i was used to. and they looked paler. they looked wack. like your pics 4 & 5. i usually pulled the plant at 57 days but i felt they were stunted and let them go to 63 and they were the worst buds id ever grown/harvested.
then i started trying to put 2 & 2 together to figure out what was happening. a friend of mine was postitive i had root aphids (he did!) but i wasnt sure... i read a post of member core that described tmv and included some pics.
then i found the root aphids in my room. hit them with merit 75wp - killed em dead.
but im pretty positive they were the ones that 'shared' the trait throught my room... but it couldve been the shared rez of the ezclone, too...
i learned/experienced that as long as the plants were kept happy in good conditions without pests and stress that it shouldnt be too big of a problem. as long as all you have is the fuckin leaf curl and color splothes then theres no worries none. its once you get the weird deformities in the fan leaves & necrotic growth you might as well junk the plants because the buds will be horrid. i hated tending plants and having branches break off the main stalk rather cleanly its discoouraging to say the least.
all thats said haha some of my friends and respected growers are pretty bright cookies and they believe the dudd phenomenom i think is tmv isnt tmv but rather a nutrient issue (potassium i think). these are smart guys that know more about plant science than i do. i am pretty much ignorant to the science part of the plant - so i respect their postions greatly. idont know what the fuck it is hahaha
imo the only way to combat it is to have a perfectly dialed environment zero pests zero disease zero stress.
a few weeks later i saw the first "thing" - Grape Romulan which previously did nto display the 'trait' was suddently displaying the hooks with the discoloration on the inside of the curl
a few days later i noticed the new growth was coming out very necrotic and brittle - much like the first 2 pictures you posted.
i got scarred and killed the plant immediatley. it was a big mom.
then i flower a light of sourdubble, which had been a bulletproof superstar previously, and i noticed they were slower in developing than i was used to. and they looked paler. they looked wack. like your pics 4 & 5. i usually pulled the plant at 57 days but i felt they were stunted and let them go to 63 and they were the worst buds id ever grown/harvested.
then i started trying to put 2 & 2 together to figure out what was happening. a friend of mine was postitive i had root aphids (he did!) but i wasnt sure... i read a post of member core that described tmv and included some pics.
then i found the root aphids in my room. hit them with merit 75wp - killed em dead.
but im pretty positive they were the ones that 'shared' the trait throught my room... but it couldve been the shared rez of the ezclone, too...
i learned/experienced that as long as the plants were kept happy in good conditions without pests and stress that it shouldnt be too big of a problem. as long as all you have is the fuckin leaf curl and color splothes then theres no worries none. its once you get the weird deformities in the fan leaves & necrotic growth you might as well junk the plants because the buds will be horrid. i hated tending plants and having branches break off the main stalk rather cleanly its discoouraging to say the least.
all thats said haha some of my friends and respected growers are pretty bright cookies and they believe the dudd phenomenom i think is tmv isnt tmv but rather a nutrient issue (potassium i think). these are smart guys that know more about plant science than i do. i am pretty much ignorant to the science part of the plant - so i respect their postions greatly. idont know what the fuck it is hahaha
imo the only way to combat it is to have a perfectly dialed environment zero pests zero disease zero stress.
Last edited:
FRANKIE1579
Member
Thanks for the reply man. So it did not spread to other plants after that harvest? It just dissapeared and died off? That would probably indicate a nutrient issue wouldn't it? Or did you sterilize everything remove all infected plants and start over?
it spread to others in my room.
it didnt just dissappear and die off. i wish.
i went thru about 3 rounds before i 'figured it out'... tok me that long to feel confident about what i was seeing/experiencing.
i ended up rebuilding the room making it right loaded it up with a few hundred plants form a friend and the night before i was gonna flip to 12/12 i got a knock on the door from 2 cops who said there was a 911 call from my house. so i didnt get a chance to see how things worked.
it didnt just dissappear and die off. i wish.
i went thru about 3 rounds before i 'figured it out'... tok me that long to feel confident about what i was seeing/experiencing.
i ended up rebuilding the room making it right loaded it up with a few hundred plants form a friend and the night before i was gonna flip to 12/12 i got a knock on the door from 2 cops who said there was a 911 call from my house. so i didnt get a chance to see how things worked.
FRANKIE1579
Member
Well FUCK lol...thanks for the reply man. I will let you know how this goes
floweryfield
Member
this is a very good idea, frankie.
Jaz rose spray does not have SA, it has MDHJ (methyl dihydrojasmonate). MDHJ and other jasmonates do not induce SAR, but SA and aspirin do. Jasmonates work by other mode of action(s) to help a plant fight off biotic attack. AFAIK jasmonates have not been shown to help with TMV, granted I have not looked for studies on that topic.
Using SA and jasmonates on the same plant may be a bad idea. The reason is they have "negative cross-talk", that is, SA inhibits the positive affects of jasmonates in plants, such as inducing greater trichome number and density and helping with biotic attack.
I would suggest you stick with using aspirin or SA, not jasmonates to help fight off MV. I know of a retail SA spay product you can buy if you want more info I can post the URL.
Yes, another company is now selling harpin protein (amino acids from fire blight bacteria) under a new brand; you are referring to "Messenger" that was made/sold by Eden Bioscience. I used Messenger for years to induce SAR, IMO it wasn't the best product for inducing SAR but I did like the results from Messenger.
Harpin protein is now sold as "Halo", here is the company website: http://www.halo-harpin.com/en/index.html
One can still find Messenger packs on-line...
A problem with harpin protein products is they 'go bad' if exposed to air over a short time period; so buying single use packs is best.
You are using ~85 ppm of ASA, but effective rate of SA in many studies to hinder/stop TMV is more than twice that ppm (~185 ppm). If I were you I would try one and a half or two 325 mg tables per gallon for ~127 ppm or ~171 ppm, respectively, if ~85 ppm isn't working to your satisfaction.
M
Mountain
Well I think that's a good call. I'm guessing most legit, above board businesses would report a sample they've received to the authorities if they suspect or confirm it to be 'illegal'. It's not just that it's a 'small piece' but I'm sure someone would get very curious and want to know if you had 1 plant or a 1,000. I'd bet money any lab I've dealt or deal with would report something to the authorities immediately. I'm just guessing it would be the FBI.
Also if you're getting indications of a positive with those strips that's what you're purchasing them for.
...and those pics you posted remind me of what I saw with what Cabby went through with his suspected TMV issue.
thanks again everybody for the posts. hopefully we will find someone who is in a position to test the chem D that shows the trait (like the pics greyskull and i posted)
having read everyones contributions, it seems that people who have had TMV have seen it spread in their garden, whearas everyone who has held the chem D with 'the trait' have said they have never seen it spread - except to some offspring.
to me this seems to stack up that it is a genetic variegation rather than TMV in chem D.
I like Crazy Composer's theory that it is a 'sport' type mutation - that could also explain why some cuts show it and some dont. the only thing that may undermine that theory is that often (in other plants) sport type variegations will be unstable and revert back to normal growth on certain branches.
i feel we are making progress here, anyone who hasnt posted who may be able to shed light - like Tom or Rez - please give them a nudge to do so if you are in a position to message them.
thanks
VG
having read everyones contributions, it seems that people who have had TMV have seen it spread in their garden, whearas everyone who has held the chem D with 'the trait' have said they have never seen it spread - except to some offspring.
to me this seems to stack up that it is a genetic variegation rather than TMV in chem D.
I like Crazy Composer's theory that it is a 'sport' type mutation - that could also explain why some cuts show it and some dont. the only thing that may undermine that theory is that often (in other plants) sport type variegations will be unstable and revert back to normal growth on certain branches.
i feel we are making progress here, anyone who hasnt posted who may be able to shed light - like Tom or Rez - please give them a nudge to do so if you are in a position to message them.
thanks
VG
Hey FRANKIE1579
Your photos look eerily familiar. I recently cleaned house because my plants were suffering like yours. Hopefully I can get this post right. I've been lurking in the shadows for the last year soaking up information. I just now registered in order to reply here. This is my first post.
Problems started for me when I temporarily moved some plants out of my veg area to go outside in the short days of Fall, hoping to get a head start on flowering while saving $$$ on electricity by not firing up the grow room lights. When I later brought these plants back into the grow area, a population of thrips came along for the ride. Dumb move on my part. When I recognized my mistake these plants went back outside, but the deed couldn't be undone.
The plants which went back outside never really developed much, with pitiful buds. I blamed it on the cold. I did get a harvest inside, but problems started when the next batch of clones went into the flowering room. Plants which had been doing well vegging under fluorescent shop lights stalled when placed under the bright 400 watt CMHs. Leaves developed an interveinal chlorosis until they were bleached white, with edges downturned. They became dry and brittle. All growth simply came to a halt. Some plants in the veg room started to show the distorted growth patterns shown in your photos. Then I discovered that I hadn't eradicated the thrips.
Researching about thrips led to info about the thrip-virus connection.
All of the information regarding plant viruses I've found on I.C. forums relates to mosaic viruses, specifically the Tobacco Mosaic Virus. When I started googling "plant viruses" I found a whole new world out there. The greenhouse horticulture industry is struggling to deal with Tospoviruses, which are spread by thrips. The big two in this department are the Impatiens Necrotic Spot Virus and the Tomato Spotted Wilt Virus. When I read this the proverbial lightbulb lit up over my head.
In the area where I live, people are having a lot of trouble with their tomato crops. I've seen many tomato plants that look similar to your suffering cannabis. A nearby friend is a commercial organic gardener, and his business has been decimated by the Tomato Spotted Wilt Virus. It is all across North America now. So I know the virus is affecting tomato plants in my town. That means there are thrips carrying the virus where I live. After bringing local thrips into my growroom my plants started showing similar symptoms. I don't think it's just a coincidence.
When this all came to a head I was in the middle of switching my grow from hand watered to an automated ebb and flow system in order to allow my plants to survive while I went away for a week and a half to assist a good friend recovering from surgery. When I recognized that viruses were part of the picture I realized that I could be on the verge of totally contaminating a new hydroponic system. So I tore down everything, tossed, cleaned, vacuumed, sterilized, and set off a bug bomb in the room before leaving town.
Thrips were a vector for sure. Whether or not my cavalier scissor technique while taking clones helped contribute to this fiasco is uncertain. I read one source stating that pruning does not spread the virus. I also found no references to fungus gnats doing the deed neither. But seeing this situation it seems inevitable that there are tospoviruses evolving to better fit the cannabis growroom. The confined crowded environment and taking of clones seems ideal for propagating an opportunistic virus.
I hope this proves of value to someone. I'm glad to finally join this community.
Here's some of the more informative webpages I found;
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/garden/02947.html
http://www.sardi.sa.gov.au/pestsdis...ources/greenhouse_pests/western_flower_thrips
http://www.tomatospottedwiltinfo.org/vegcrops/index.html
http://www.umass.edu/umext/floriculture/fact_sheets/pest_management/wft_03.html
Your photos look eerily familiar. I recently cleaned house because my plants were suffering like yours. Hopefully I can get this post right. I've been lurking in the shadows for the last year soaking up information. I just now registered in order to reply here. This is my first post.
Problems started for me when I temporarily moved some plants out of my veg area to go outside in the short days of Fall, hoping to get a head start on flowering while saving $$$ on electricity by not firing up the grow room lights. When I later brought these plants back into the grow area, a population of thrips came along for the ride. Dumb move on my part. When I recognized my mistake these plants went back outside, but the deed couldn't be undone.
The plants which went back outside never really developed much, with pitiful buds. I blamed it on the cold. I did get a harvest inside, but problems started when the next batch of clones went into the flowering room. Plants which had been doing well vegging under fluorescent shop lights stalled when placed under the bright 400 watt CMHs. Leaves developed an interveinal chlorosis until they were bleached white, with edges downturned. They became dry and brittle. All growth simply came to a halt. Some plants in the veg room started to show the distorted growth patterns shown in your photos. Then I discovered that I hadn't eradicated the thrips.
Researching about thrips led to info about the thrip-virus connection.
All of the information regarding plant viruses I've found on I.C. forums relates to mosaic viruses, specifically the Tobacco Mosaic Virus. When I started googling "plant viruses" I found a whole new world out there. The greenhouse horticulture industry is struggling to deal with Tospoviruses, which are spread by thrips. The big two in this department are the Impatiens Necrotic Spot Virus and the Tomato Spotted Wilt Virus. When I read this the proverbial lightbulb lit up over my head.
In the area where I live, people are having a lot of trouble with their tomato crops. I've seen many tomato plants that look similar to your suffering cannabis. A nearby friend is a commercial organic gardener, and his business has been decimated by the Tomato Spotted Wilt Virus. It is all across North America now. So I know the virus is affecting tomato plants in my town. That means there are thrips carrying the virus where I live. After bringing local thrips into my growroom my plants started showing similar symptoms. I don't think it's just a coincidence.
When this all came to a head I was in the middle of switching my grow from hand watered to an automated ebb and flow system in order to allow my plants to survive while I went away for a week and a half to assist a good friend recovering from surgery. When I recognized that viruses were part of the picture I realized that I could be on the verge of totally contaminating a new hydroponic system. So I tore down everything, tossed, cleaned, vacuumed, sterilized, and set off a bug bomb in the room before leaving town.
Thrips were a vector for sure. Whether or not my cavalier scissor technique while taking clones helped contribute to this fiasco is uncertain. I read one source stating that pruning does not spread the virus. I also found no references to fungus gnats doing the deed neither. But seeing this situation it seems inevitable that there are tospoviruses evolving to better fit the cannabis growroom. The confined crowded environment and taking of clones seems ideal for propagating an opportunistic virus.
I hope this proves of value to someone. I'm glad to finally join this community.
Here's some of the more informative webpages I found;
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/garden/02947.html
http://www.sardi.sa.gov.au/pestsdis...ources/greenhouse_pests/western_flower_thrips
http://www.tomatospottedwiltinfo.org/vegcrops/index.html
http://www.umass.edu/umext/floriculture/fact_sheets/pest_management/wft_03.html
That stuff works well to boost the immune response of plants. Additionally, you should know that whatever is out there of the "Messenger"....you better scoop it up. The company that made messenger went out of business (a while back)...so whatever stock you find....pick it up and put it somewhere safe. You may not be able to find the stuff eventually.
@ FRANKIE1579 and accessndx:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4244107&postcount=88
IMO harpin protein isn't the best way to induce SAR (aka an elicitor of SAR) in terms of efficacy for a broad range of plants. Using chitosan (as chitin oligosaccharide) or SA (and ASA) has been found to be more effective AFAIK, than harpin protien; as well as hepta-beta-glucoside.
For TMV, SA and ASA have been found effective; I think Frankie needs to try a higher ppm...
Below is an article by Linda Chalker-Scott, Ph.D. in her series "horticultural myths"; this is about Messenger harpin protein and how it has been found effective for some species in the lab (tested in vitro [e.g., tissue culture], not in vivo [e.g., whole plant]) but generally not so much in the field.
Granted, cannabis plants grown indoors would fall under the "in the lab" category due to controlled environment; and indoors cannabis leaves would qualify "soft leaf tissue" if RH is not low and temp is not high. Using a high quality non-ionic surfactant with high RH and some humic acid (to increase evaporation time of water from leaves) will increase harpin proteins efficacy quite a lot. Harpin can be applied via foliar spray or to roots; I have only tried foliar spray but using both routs is probably the best bet.
I for one found harpin protien does seem to help cannabis by inducing growth response, but others found the opposite. There was a good thread on OG (or maybe it was CW-1; I can't recall) years ago with a side by side of plant with and without harpin (Messenger); there was no noticeable difference between the plants. I found ASA works better than harpin. I plan to test chitin oligosaccharide (from chitin) in the future as a SAR inducer.
One other note about haprin protein is it should be mixed with deionized or distilled water; it can't be mixed with water that has any type of chloramine or chlorine. It's not so easy to dissolve harpin in water, so I like to use distilled water with a good surfactant and/or emulsifier (like tween-20); and heating up the water helps dissolve the harpin protein.
1. Here is the article by Linda, it's pretty good, some of her article are questionable but this one is better than some, IMO:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4244107&postcount=88
For TMV, SA and ASA have been found effective; I think Frankie needs to try a higher ppm...
Below is an article by Linda Chalker-Scott, Ph.D. in her series "horticultural myths"; this is about Messenger harpin protein and how it has been found effective for some species in the lab (tested in vitro [e.g., tissue culture], not in vivo [e.g., whole plant]) but generally not so much in the field.
Granted, cannabis plants grown indoors would fall under the "in the lab" category due to controlled environment; and indoors cannabis leaves would qualify "soft leaf tissue" if RH is not low and temp is not high. Using a high quality non-ionic surfactant with high RH and some humic acid (to increase evaporation time of water from leaves) will increase harpin proteins efficacy quite a lot. Harpin can be applied via foliar spray or to roots; I have only tried foliar spray but using both routs is probably the best bet.
I for one found harpin protien does seem to help cannabis by inducing growth response, but others found the opposite. There was a good thread on OG (or maybe it was CW-1; I can't recall) years ago with a side by side of plant with and without harpin (Messenger); there was no noticeable difference between the plants. I found ASA works better than harpin. I plan to test chitin oligosaccharide (from chitin) in the future as a SAR inducer.
One other note about haprin protein is it should be mixed with deionized or distilled water; it can't be mixed with water that has any type of chloramine or chlorine. It's not so easy to dissolve harpin in water, so I like to use distilled water with a good surfactant and/or emulsifier (like tween-20); and heating up the water helps dissolve the harpin protein.
1. Here is the article by Linda, it's pretty good, some of her article are questionable but this one is better than some, IMO:
"The Myth of the Magic Bullet: Success in the lab guarantees success in the field”
http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda%20chalker-scott/horticultural%20myths_files/Myths/Harpin.pdf
2. Here is a quote from her article where she cites many University results from trials in vivo in a greenhouse or field:http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda%20chalker-scott/horticultural%20myths_files/Myths/Harpin.pdf
'Halo', available in the UK, is a Harpin based product, i aint used it but some buddies of mine have & wernt very impressed, considering the growth boost hype that comes with it.
@ scrogerman,
That is my opinion exactly. While I have not used Halo I did use Messenger for some time, and they are the same thing. Halo is the reincarnation of Messenger. I wasn't impressed enough with Messenger to continue using it after I tested it for a few grows. I did believe I noticed a bit of an affect (in growth) from Messenger, but nothing to write home about.
That is my opinion exactly. While I have not used Halo I did use Messenger for some time, and they are the same thing. Halo is the reincarnation of Messenger. I wasn't impressed enough with Messenger to continue using it after I tested it for a few grows. I did believe I noticed a bit of an affect (in growth) from Messenger, but nothing to write home about.
Nice thread Verdant...i havent read through the whole thread but i need to comment..The Chem D does not have tmv, if it did it would infect anything that came near it.
I have tmv in my garden, if you have it it will infect everything!!
I havent confirmed the virus with test strips but im 99.999% sure it is tmv ive been watching its effects since i first noticed it last July.
I even started a new garden with a few clones in it from a friend within weeks they got the tmv from thrips(which i thought id eradicated). I think thrips were the original vector for the infection.
Il be finishing up all my plants over the next couple months then all tents are being burned and im starting afresh...just a shame to loose so many awesome cuts and even more of a shame i didnt share them....And to kill it on your equipment and tools etc you need to sanitise not sterilise...Peace
I have tmv in my garden, if you have it it will infect everything!!
I havent confirmed the virus with test strips but im 99.999% sure it is tmv ive been watching its effects since i first noticed it last July.
I even started a new garden with a few clones in it from a friend within weeks they got the tmv from thrips(which i thought id eradicated). I think thrips were the original vector for the infection.
Il be finishing up all my plants over the next couple months then all tents are being burned and im starting afresh...just a shame to loose so many awesome cuts and even more of a shame i didnt share them....And to kill it on your equipment and tools etc you need to sanitise not sterilise...Peace
Son_of_a_Batch
Active member
edit
I have a plant (blue satellite 2.2) that looks a lot like it has mosaic virus.
You know, TMV was the first virus ever discovered, not sure if that was mentioned. The technique was easy: material was blended and filtered through mesh fine enough to trap all serum/bacteria. Then the filtered material was used to infect another plant, proving it could not be bacterial or genetic.
I would like to suggest that spring is coming to the northern hemisphere, and some of us could plant some ornamental tobacciana for a little experiment...
for treating gear, I like to use physan 20. (don't tell the organic people)
You know, TMV was the first virus ever discovered, not sure if that was mentioned. The technique was easy: material was blended and filtered through mesh fine enough to trap all serum/bacteria. Then the filtered material was used to infect another plant, proving it could not be bacterial or genetic.
I would like to suggest that spring is coming to the northern hemisphere, and some of us could plant some ornamental tobacciana for a little experiment...
for treating gear, I like to use physan 20. (don't tell the organic people)
