Oh I see, it's about that FFOF soil huh? ( again ) lol You know for you ta talk about it so much, you sure don't much about it. You would aproach it jus like you would with soiless, when they start showing signs of being hungry feed em. Usually, only after a couple weeks. The OP jus has to dail in the nutes, flowering plants use more nutes than veggin plants do. In flower I use 2 tsp of Tigerbloom at least once a week, sometimes twice and 1/4-1/2 cup of Bigbloom every other watering, and I don't burn any thing. Compare this to what the plants in this thread have been fed with useing PBP nutes.... FFOF also has a microherd that needs ta be fed. I know what Clackamas Coot said about it. But I don't think he ever stop and thought about how hot a compost pile gets, up around 200 hundred degrees if I remember correctly, and it's the micro critters that do it! I think yud have a hard time killin it ta be honest. Again, jus my opinion on things... later, BC
More Leaf Problems! Burning and yellowing?
- Thread starter DRKN_MNKY420
- Start date
Johnny Rotten
Member
There are good and bad reports all over the place with FFOF. My problem with nutes in the soil is it could be too much and burn right off the bat, or be way to little and they could show up right away. You've lost all control over the situation. If you start off with no nutes in the soil, there is only one way to go, Get it? Kinda takes out the guesswork. Control the variables and you control the problems.
Explain to him why his first pictures look one way and his second look totally different when he is telling you he did all the same things.
I'm not here to argue over soil preferences or other things like that. I'm trying to help someone who is having a problem telling when to water and how much fertilizer to use.
So my suggestion was to dump the soil, switch to coco and feed with every watering. Then it would be east to tell when they're hungry vs. overfed and he wouldn't have problems with the over/under watering.
Or he can keep doing what he's doing and we can play doctor...I don't find joy in seeing people in the infirmary. Shit, I barely like being in here, It's the only place on the site that i can guarantee friction.
Explain to him why his first pictures look one way and his second look totally different when he is telling you he did all the same things.
I'm not here to argue over soil preferences or other things like that. I'm trying to help someone who is having a problem telling when to water and how much fertilizer to use.
So my suggestion was to dump the soil, switch to coco and feed with every watering. Then it would be east to tell when they're hungry vs. overfed and he wouldn't have problems with the over/under watering.
Or he can keep doing what he's doing and we can play doctor...I don't find joy in seeing people in the infirmary. Shit, I barely like being in here, It's the only place on the site that i can guarantee friction.
moonymonkey
Active member
same light hours as last time? i have used ph 6.0 water on pro-mix with lime added,ph of soil did not work out....to low ph water...soil went to ph 7.o in wick system,nutrients locked up,so i took small amont of food feed at ph 7.4,next 2 waterings at ph 6.o...it worked...u can actually feed plants lik this...not recommened,better ways to stablize ph....i seen a dude at over grow,water his plants with lime water,imediately feed at proper ph all at one ti,me....there moe then 1 way to balance ph...looks lik ph problem,an that cn definately come from watering problem...peace moon/xxxx
You know, it dosen't matter -what- medium you use, if they start showin signs of deficiencys it's time ta feed em. After a couple of weeks in FFOF yul see, it's time to feed em. It's a no brainer and nothin ta guess about. I've had this coversation many times over the years. No matter what you grow in you have ta learn ta read yer plants, after all you can over or under feed in -anything-. I'm not tryin ta argue either, jus tryin ta lay down some basic foundation ground rules for growing, no matter how that may be......I can't say fersure why his plants got bigger last time, although the bigger plant would have transpired more than the others, so it would have been watered/fed more often. I dunno, but there was a deffinite problem then too with several def's...... DM 420 I'm not sure why yer leaves tips are burnt, it's possible it's caused by a nute def or maybe heat stress. Nute burn usually comes on the tips of leaves that are dark green and overly healthy. I noticed very red leaf stems in the first set of pics, this is a classic sign of of P def, it could aslo be signs of a co-def in N, K and mag. Genetics could be why there red too, but in this case I really doubt it. In the pics from the last grow. Look at the center leaves in the bud, there's purpling, another sign of P def. Plus the overall look of the bud, there kinda small and stunted, another classic sign. Plus def's in micro nutes too. So either yer short on nutes or the PH is locked up from the lime. I jus don't think that would be enough lime ta do it tho.... It's been a long time since I used PBP, but if I remember correctly it's short on cal or mag(?) so it prolly would help ta pick up a bottle of cal mag+. It's important to have a -balance- of nutes for the proper uptake of all nutes.... I think you can feed em and get them stable so they put some weight on, but I don't think those leaves will ever turn a dark green again..... Well I reckon I'm done ramblin now. lol Once again, good luck! BC
Johnny Rotten
Member
i don't know why bubbling your water drops the ph like that. I would guess it's the chlorine raising the ph? All i know is my ground water is rock solid at 8.0 and good luck growing with it. Your even doubly screwed if you added the 1 cup to a cubic foot of lime that gets tossed around here so often. I've been cutting it 50/50 with r/o or i'll mix it strait up if mixing up something real acidic.
Here's my take on the soils with pre-mixed in organic nutes. It has NOTHING to do with Fox Farm. I have no problem with fox farm. If botanicare made a pre ferted soil I'd tell ya to stay clear of that too.
There great if you get em fresh. If you don't the organics can be at any state of breakdown and can be in excess in your soil or the soil could be completely dead and void of all microbial activity.
Here's my fix, its cost effective and customizable. Go to a major home center and buy a bag of Espoma Plant Tone or Fox Farm (yes B.C. FOX FARM) Peace of Mind and get a basic peat mix like Pro Mix or Sunshine Mix and grab a bag of perlite. You can leave out the lime or add it in depending on your water hardness. Mix it up and water with a product like Turf Pro, Humex or a healthy compost and wait two to three weeks, mixing the soil and aerating every few days.
You'll have a product comparable to Fox Farm's Ocean Forest but you'll have control over more of the variables. You know how hot the soil will be and you know it will be alive and kicking when you need it.
Here's my take on the soils with pre-mixed in organic nutes. It has NOTHING to do with Fox Farm. I have no problem with fox farm. If botanicare made a pre ferted soil I'd tell ya to stay clear of that too.
There great if you get em fresh. If you don't the organics can be at any state of breakdown and can be in excess in your soil or the soil could be completely dead and void of all microbial activity.
Here's my fix, its cost effective and customizable. Go to a major home center and buy a bag of Espoma Plant Tone or Fox Farm (yes B.C. FOX FARM) Peace of Mind and get a basic peat mix like Pro Mix or Sunshine Mix and grab a bag of perlite. You can leave out the lime or add it in depending on your water hardness. Mix it up and water with a product like Turf Pro, Humex or a healthy compost and wait two to three weeks, mixing the soil and aerating every few days.
You'll have a product comparable to Fox Farm's Ocean Forest but you'll have control over more of the variables. You know how hot the soil will be and you know it will be alive and kicking when you need it.
DRKN_MNKY420
Member
Hey Guys, I wanted to address both of you and let you know that this strain really is a good, pretty strain. This is the very first time I grew this out this last winter. This plant is recommended 45-50 days bloom by seed supplier. I didn't see any red stems or anything first time around. So now this is the third round with this, I thought I would have it down. I can't seem to get them to look like this, nice and full. Color is great! I loved her so much, I reveged her and took alot of clones off her. All my friends that have setups have a clone of this plant as we speak!
I started to think about differences the first time I grew her compared to the last two times. I remember using store bought water! I also know that the bag of FFOF blend was bought June 2007, assuming this stuff gets old sitting around. I also didn't use any Humboldt products like bushmaster or gravity. I beleive I used espoma garden lime mixed into the FFOF blend in this great lookin run. Didn't have the soil sweetener until last grow, which harvested in May.
ACTION PLAN!
I am going to take some words of wisdom from both of you: My action plan is to currently cut a few more drainage holes. When the soil drys out again, as I just fed yesterday at 2.5ml/gal bloom & 3ml Karma, I am considering feeding with a shot of some ALL PURPOSE Plant food by Expert, for a one time fix to see if that will boost my NPK abit. I will definitely go and buy some more spring water and just stay away from my tap.
All this should take me to the weekend, which is when I will have to make a decision on the soil being used. If I see some better looking growth, I will leave it and just try and finish her.
As for my eight seeds I got going for my next planned grow, I am definitely considering a different medium to grow in whether it be coco, pro mix, or sunshine mix. The hydro shop is on the same block as my home by chance. LOL.
You guys have been great, but I still have one question!!!
What should I do about this pH down stuff I have been using? Should I pH my water or not? If so, what should my pH be at before I feed and what kinda runoff number should I look to acheive? I never owned pH down until last grow when I had all the problems I was having and now again still having problems.
I started to think about differences the first time I grew her compared to the last two times. I remember using store bought water! I also know that the bag of FFOF blend was bought June 2007, assuming this stuff gets old sitting around. I also didn't use any Humboldt products like bushmaster or gravity. I beleive I used espoma garden lime mixed into the FFOF blend in this great lookin run. Didn't have the soil sweetener until last grow, which harvested in May.
ACTION PLAN!
I am going to take some words of wisdom from both of you: My action plan is to currently cut a few more drainage holes. When the soil drys out again, as I just fed yesterday at 2.5ml/gal bloom & 3ml Karma, I am considering feeding with a shot of some ALL PURPOSE Plant food by Expert, for a one time fix to see if that will boost my NPK abit. I will definitely go and buy some more spring water and just stay away from my tap.
All this should take me to the weekend, which is when I will have to make a decision on the soil being used. If I see some better looking growth, I will leave it and just try and finish her.
As for my eight seeds I got going for my next planned grow, I am definitely considering a different medium to grow in whether it be coco, pro mix, or sunshine mix. The hydro shop is on the same block as my home by chance. LOL.
You guys have been great, but I still have one question!!!
What should I do about this pH down stuff I have been using? Should I pH my water or not? If so, what should my pH be at before I feed and what kinda runoff number should I look to acheive? I never owned pH down until last grow when I had all the problems I was having and now again still having problems.
You didn't add the most important ingredient to an organic soil mix...humus. Dolomite lime doesn't "buffer" pH, it adjusts it. Humus (humic acid) buffers pH.
pH up or down will kill the hell out of an organic grow.
Are you using PBP flower for SOIL? You need to.
I'd hit 'em hard with some worm casting tea EVERY watering along with the LK.
Next time try a proven recipe.
Burn1
pH up or down will kill the hell out of an organic grow.
Are you using PBP flower for SOIL? You need to.
I'd hit 'em hard with some worm casting tea EVERY watering along with the LK.
Next time try a proven recipe.
Burn1
DRKN_MNKY420
Member
Actually I f'd that up too when I purchased it. My grow shop only had the hydro PBP Bloom, and I didn't know any better, so I bought it. Later someone pointed out that I had the wrong stuff. But as you can see from the post of the pictures above, It doesn't really matter which formula you use. I havn't change my nutes since I started growing Jan 2007. That plant looked and tasted great compared to my current grow and my last grow of that exact same strain.
Now I am not really familiar with humus and where to get it, what it looks like or how much to add, because I was told all I needed was some FFOF and Perlite. But once again as you can see from my past results, I never used or needed humus before. Why now? Because I have problems now, there has to be real simple solution to my problem.
Either my tap water is the problem, or adding this pH down stuff, or my soil is too old, or something little like my plants don't like dolomite lime. I dunno?
I have been using the same shit every grow for over a year with very little problems. I have no objection to try different mediums, But I just don't think it will help me if my tap water is bad or if pH down is killing my shit. Or if dolomite lime is not good to use.
I don't disagree with anybody saying that there are better mediums out there, and I will try one with my new seeds I think. But, all i'm sayin is I have had good results in the past using what I got and I have only changed a few things, so doesn't it have to be one of those changes that is screwing shit up?
I dunno, gotta take a nap. I'll be back in a few hours to see what yall have to say next.
Now I am not really familiar with humus and where to get it, what it looks like or how much to add, because I was told all I needed was some FFOF and Perlite. But once again as you can see from my past results, I never used or needed humus before. Why now? Because I have problems now, there has to be real simple solution to my problem.
Either my tap water is the problem, or adding this pH down stuff, or my soil is too old, or something little like my plants don't like dolomite lime. I dunno?
I have been using the same shit every grow for over a year with very little problems. I have no objection to try different mediums, But I just don't think it will help me if my tap water is bad or if pH down is killing my shit. Or if dolomite lime is not good to use.
I don't disagree with anybody saying that there are better mediums out there, and I will try one with my new seeds I think. But, all i'm sayin is I have had good results in the past using what I got and I have only changed a few things, so doesn't it have to be one of those changes that is screwing shit up?
I dunno, gotta take a nap. I'll be back in a few hours to see what yall have to say next.
Last edited:
moonymonkey
Active member
i wud check ph of spring water or anywater i used...incase anything goes wrong....try to get ur water from same store,as other stores cud have same brand with a diff. ph...rue 1 write down wat u do,so same mistake not made twice,easier to get help,an o you can make adjustments...moon/watsss upppp burn1.....
Simple thing to improve:
You are using 2 of these trays, and one 'fits inside the other to catch runoff'?
Nope, no good. You have HOLES but that is not true DRAINAGE.
Put a couple bricks under the tray containing the dirt but inside the runoff tray. Lift the dirt tray up off the catch tray. There should be plenty of space for air flow, because draining water has to go somewhere, and if the trays are nested, that is just no good.
You are using 2 of these trays, and one 'fits inside the other to catch runoff'?
Nope, no good. You have HOLES but that is not true DRAINAGE.
Put a couple bricks under the tray containing the dirt but inside the runoff tray. Lift the dirt tray up off the catch tray. There should be plenty of space for air flow, because draining water has to go somewhere, and if the trays are nested, that is just no good.
hmm...
hmm...
hmm...
Nah man, there's humus in the soil. That's the "Forest" part: "composted forest humus" and earth worm castings. Also, PBP has humic acid in it..... I wasn't aware PH up and down would kill the subculture? Earth juice is all organic and it has PH up and down?..... I do agree with you about the PBP soil nutes. PBP for hydro has a NPK value of 2.5-2-5, this is not good for a plant that aggressivly uses P in flower. It's no wonder they have signs of P defiency, there is. Prolly the start a chain reaction of defiencies. You need ta get the PBP for soil, the NPK values are 1.5-4-5. Much more suited to what yer plants needs are right now. Btw are the nutes you have now from June of 07 too? if so they may be unstable by now. I wouldn't worry about the soil tho. These folks that believe that it's easy to kill the microherd need ta do some research on soil subcultures. They would see that many of these micro organisims will go dormant when the conditions aren't favorable for them. They could also do some research on sterilizing soil fer the mushroom industry, jus ta see what it does take ta kill "everthing" in the soil...... Burn1, I've used this soil for years, I never had a problem with it. I started out mixxing my own soil years ago, but it's a pain in the ass ( and back ) any more in my situation. I dunno, if it makes the plants happy, I'm happy, and that's all that really matters in my lil world I spose. To each there own tho. Take care... BCBurnOne said:
FFOF is a ripoff IMO. They take some peat and hardwood mulch, throw in a handful of worm castings and a little dolomite and call it organic. Then charge $20 to $40 for 1.5 cu. ft. of it. Plain old peat is 100% organic. FFOF doesn't have enough humus, perlite or dolomite in it IMO. You'll get a much better mix for a fraction of the cost with one of LC's mixes. And you can throw that pH meter away.
Burn1
Burn1
Well Burn1, how do ya reckon I've gotten away with usein this soil for so many years if it's bunk? I don't use -any- lime and I don't even own a PH meter anymore, haven't for years. I've heard SO much bullshit about this soil, but yet I have no problems pulling 2-4 oz per bush from it! If this soil is so fucked up, how can a guy like me do that? Btw, jus because some one isn't "hardcore" organic and mix there own soil doesn't mean it's still not organic.... Like I said, If my plants are happy, I'm happy. BC
Johnny Rotten
Member
Watch out, Burn1. Now you'll have ol' B.C following you around and arguing with you every time your not pimping the Fox Farm Ocean Forest.
Btw, i get 3 c.ft of composted forest humus, peat, perlite, and charcoal for 9.99 and ten pounds of Plant Tone for 7.99. I guess if we'd mix it and charge ten times what it's worth we could sell it to suckers and make a mint. Move over Fox Farm....
Espoma Plant Tone- Dehydrated Manure, Feather Meal, Crab Meal, Cocoa Meal, Corn Gluten, Dried Blood, Sunflower Meal, Kelp Meal, Alfalfa Meal, Greensand, Rock Phosphate, Sulfate of Potash, Sulfate of Potash Magnesia and Humates.
Fox Farm Peace Of Mind-Support healthy growth all season long with our Happy Frog® All-Purpose blend. It’s pH-balanced with premium organic ingredients like feather meal, fish meal, bat guano, and humic acid, a naturally occurring organic material that is formed when organic matter decomposes. Humic acid helps with seed germination and may increase the uptake of important micronutrients.
Very similar except for the bat guano. Ocean forest has a lil bit of EW castings.
Still, A RIP OFF...even if you get it fresh from the factory.
Were happy you have great results with the stuff, but don't take it so personal when other people won't pimp it. We see it for what it is. A con job for pot growers.
Btw, i get 3 c.ft of composted forest humus, peat, perlite, and charcoal for 9.99 and ten pounds of Plant Tone for 7.99. I guess if we'd mix it and charge ten times what it's worth we could sell it to suckers and make a mint. Move over Fox Farm....
Espoma Plant Tone- Dehydrated Manure, Feather Meal, Crab Meal, Cocoa Meal, Corn Gluten, Dried Blood, Sunflower Meal, Kelp Meal, Alfalfa Meal, Greensand, Rock Phosphate, Sulfate of Potash, Sulfate of Potash Magnesia and Humates.
Fox Farm Peace Of Mind-Support healthy growth all season long with our Happy Frog® All-Purpose blend. It’s pH-balanced with premium organic ingredients like feather meal, fish meal, bat guano, and humic acid, a naturally occurring organic material that is formed when organic matter decomposes. Humic acid helps with seed germination and may increase the uptake of important micronutrients.
Very similar except for the bat guano. Ocean forest has a lil bit of EW castings.
Still, A RIP OFF...even if you get it fresh from the factory.
Were happy you have great results with the stuff, but don't take it so personal when other people won't pimp it. We see it for what it is. A con job for pot growers.
LOL! Right???
LOL! Right???
LOL! Right???
Don't flatter yerself, I've followed you no where. You talk about takin things personal, go back and read yer posts. Seems like yer the one takin things personal. Hell you jus posted a soil recipe in DM's thread, why? could it be we have a bit of an ego? and gotta prove somthin?..... Yer a rebel without a clue Johnny! lol Save us from the those evil money grubbers at Fox Farms! Did ya know that soil only cost's the "hydro" stores 7-8$ a bag, it's the store that's raping folks? Prolly didn't think of that tho, huh? But still, I can spend a whole 20$ and grow THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS worth of bud with it! I'm not pimpin a fuckin thing, if it's not broke why fix it? BTW Johnny, if ya think I'm "following you around" jus put me on yer ignore list, yul never know I'm there! lol.... Sorry DM420 I sure didn't mean ta hijack yer thread with this crap! Take care... BCJohnny Rotten said:
Johnny Rotten
Member
The problem is, B.C, this is the infirmary so obviously things are broke. You need to stop thinking that its all about your situation because it's NOT. We are happy you grow great bud with it and if he was growing great bud with it, I'd tell him to keep it up. You don't seem good at grasping the WHOLE concept of the situation, forest for the trees and what not.
I don't give a shit how much it costs, really, but the fact is, they have a hard time with storage of a live product. Because thats what your buying, right? Thats what you hope your buying, anyway.
The stuff speaks for itself, good and bad. I'd said what i had to say and then some. You don't bother me that much but i get sick of repeating the same things.
And yeah, I got an Ego. I'm fucking Johnny Rotten.
I don't give a shit how much it costs, really, but the fact is, they have a hard time with storage of a live product. Because thats what your buying, right? Thats what you hope your buying, anyway.
The stuff speaks for itself, good and bad. I'd said what i had to say and then some. You don't bother me that much but i get sick of repeating the same things.
And yeah, I got an Ego. I'm fucking Johnny Rotten.
Quality of the original soil/soilless product aside, we need to keep in mind that the OP is applying fairly standard practices to a NON-standard (read: NON-DRAINING) system. There's not much that he's going to be able to do about it until that issue is resolved, and IMVHO that should be priority#1.
Johnny Rotten
Member
Totally agree and didn't catch that until you pointed it out pages back. Got a bit side tracked, there for a bit.
Oxygen to the roots is one of the most limiting factors when growing in peat mixes. I'd use that to water though, fill the bottom tub up half way and set the top tub in it, wait for a while and remove. This pushes out all the stale air out and keeps dry pockets from forming in your peat. You'd probably also benefit from a few holes being punched in the sides as well.
BTW, sorry for mucking up your thread. I'm just trying to help.
Oxygen to the roots is one of the most limiting factors when growing in peat mixes. I'd use that to water though, fill the bottom tub up half way and set the top tub in it, wait for a while and remove. This pushes out all the stale air out and keeps dry pockets from forming in your peat. You'd probably also benefit from a few holes being punched in the sides as well.
BTW, sorry for mucking up your thread. I'm just trying to help.
