More Leaf Problems! Burning and yellowing?

[DRKN_MNKY420]

Hello, I need some help. I think I am having the same trouble I had my last grow again. So I obviously havn't figured it out yet.

This sucks, I hate having troubles.

Anyways, I will give ya the rundown:
5 gallons Fox Farm OF blend w/ perlite and some dolimite lime

Kitty litter box as the container, holds about 5 gallons

Four plants all in this container. Early Pearl x Northern Lights

3 CLones and the Revegged mother in this grow

Feeding Liquid Karma, Bloom, Grow, Superthrive during repot/veg only, and some molasses here and there.

I water and feed every other, so feeding about once a week.

Last feeding was 15 days ago, fed 2ml grow, 2ml bloom, 3ml karma during the first week of bloom.

Today is day 17 BLOOM and time for another feeding, so I went 2.5ml Bloom and 3ml Karma.

Water supply is tap water, pH 8.7, bubbled 24-48hrs at least changes pH to 7.5 every time.

I use pH Down to help bring the pH down to a better range. Last plain watering was on 8/10 pH was 6.3 and runoff was 7.0. Today water and nutes went in at 5.5, runoff was 6.6!

My temps normally stay at 70-72 at soil level and 73-78 near tops. Even at night the lowest I see is 68-69 usually 70.

My lights 220 watts of CFL's inside a rubbermaid setup.

Humidity is unknown at this time? I don't think it seems humid near the grow area.

PC Fan inside runs at about 65cfm's total area is 44 gallons of space. 7 total inches of intake and 4 inch fan going out.

I have been using the bend and break method for training during this stretch period as I have no other method of control.

2 days ago I cut and pruned a bunch of small lower branches so the girls can start focusing on the main colas. But the leaf trouble started before I even flipped the lights.

Anything else?????????????????

Let me know what you think, here are the pics:

 

[limey]

Water supply is tap water, pH 8.7, bubbled 24-48hrs at least changes pH to 7.5 every time.

I use pH Down to help bring the pH down to a better range. Last plain watering was on 8/10 pH was 6.3 and runoff was 7.0. Today water and nutes went in at 5.5, runoff was 6.6!
...............

My lights 220 watts of CFL's inside a rubbermaid setup.

Hi there

The points I have quoted from your thread seem to me to suggest the problem or problems, though there are other possibilities:

1. what you say about your pH points to problems in the growing medium. You say you have included some lime so it shouldn't be a problem with buffering but it could be that ; it could be build up of nutrient salts in the "soil". I have read a few sniffy comments on this site about FoFF but I haven't used it and don't think we have it in the UK anyway so I can't really comment on that. Anyway, some (fairly standard advice) things you may want to try/look at:
Have the roots got enough space? - you can get yellowing like this if they are pot bound
Are your containers draining properly? - again, unhappy roots can lead to trouble like this
Have you tried flushing out the containers, in case there is a problem with build up of salts in the soil? Flushing them a couple of times over a couple of days should mean you should end up with consistent pH in the run off. If they are draining ok you shouldn't have problem with overwatering and it seldom does much harm to clean out the soil. There are various commercially available potions to help with this though I am not familiar with US products.
Though there's some disagreement on this, I have also found that plants actually draw alot of nitrogen at the switch to flowering, caused by the growth spurt, and this can lead to an N deficiency, so you might try giving the plants a dose of your "grow nutrients" to see if that perks them up but only after you have flushed and ruled out problems with salts in the soil, else you could make things worse.

2. You look to have a fairly dense canopy of leaves above the level where you have yellowing. This could simply indicate that the leaves lower down are yellowing because they aren't getting much light and the plant is concentrating its energy higher up. I have often had leaves yellowing for this reason early on in flowering. Never seems to have done any harm. You want to keep a watchful eye that the yellowing doesn't spread higher up the plants though, as that would point to a more serious problem.

If this all seems a bit basic, that's because I have usually found that it's the simple things that go wrong most often.

Hope this helps anyway, best of luck to you

 

[DRKN_MNKY420]

Thanks Limey for your thoughts!

I don't think I have a soil build up, mainly because I just put these girls in this container about 5 weeks ago. I have never fed any grow or bloom nutes more than 2-3ml /gallon. I only feed/water as needed, sometimes 3-4 days and other times 5-7 days between water. I am thinking N def. because the leaves are standing up in that one pic and the yellowing is at all different levels on the plants. Some near the top, middle, bottom.

I guess I always worry that I am over feeding because if I look at the new growth near the top I will see the very very tip of the new leaves will be brown. I thought that meant over feeding? If that is over feeding and I have a N def. How do I give more N without over feeding? This is such a pain in the ars.

Thanks, I hope someone can elaborate on this more.



I also don't think there is a problem with the drainage, because I used this pot with my last grow and towards the end the soil dried out pretty fast 2-3 days.

I am thinking about doing a one time fix and getting an all around plant food for my next feeding which will probably be in about 10-14 days. Any thoughts?

 

[stinkyattic]

That's a strange looking set of symptoms. I've seen similar when plants are too cold- specifically, when the soil is chilly, wet, and acidic. Your temps are a hair on the low side, and it sounds like your soil is acidic. But you say you have added lime- now, you also say that you have had them in that container for about 5 weeks. And that you are feeding at a pretty freaking LOW pH but your runoff is very HIGH. I am starting to wonder whether you needed to add lime at all, with high pH water, and a pre-mixed medium.

I think you put too much lime in there, and also suspect an issue with your tap water. What, if anything, do you know about your tap water? Why is the pH so high? What is the hardness? Does it seem to take a lot of pH down to get the water where you need it?

Last Q, what sort of drainage do you have in your container- what DIAMETER holes, and WHERE? Are there any on the sides, or are they only in the bottom? (pails like that have a ridge on the bottom and if you don't prop it up on something, they drain poorly)

Too much plant mass in that pail too IMHO.

Meanwhile, I'd give a light foliar feed with my favorite emergency pick-me-up which is the 'Micro' from the GH 3-part, mixed at about a tablespoon in a quart. It has N in it, and also micronutes (durr lol) and I've used it for years to halt the progression of def/lockout problems while I fix their source.

 

[DRKN_MNKY420]

Hey Stinkyattic, thanks for the info, let me try and help you help me.

I have often wondered if I needed dolomite lime or how much exactly to give them. The Pure Blend Nutes by Botanicare mention in the instructions that you should use their cal-mag product along with the grow and bloom. So I thought that dolomite lime would do the same thing. I DUNNO?

I put about 3 tablespoons of lime in w/ 5 gallons of fox farm OF and 30% perlite.

My water was tested at the hydro shop at around 150ppm's, not sure if it is hard/soft. I guess I don't really know the difference. I use about 1ml of GH's pH down to get it around 6 from 7.5. Not sure why the airstone bubbles my water down from 8.7 to 7.5.

I have six holes the size of a pencil spread evenly around the bottom edge of the container. I usually get some runoff which I test and dump. I normally don't get more than a couple ounces of runoff. I usually water/feed about 3/4-1gallon for the whole 5 gallon container when I do water/feed.

I generally rip most of the roots when I transplant, so I dought there is too much plant mass. Last grow I was surprised to find that there wasn't as many roots in this container as i thought there would be when I cleaned it out for this grow.

You think my pH that I am feeding is really low? I thought 6-6.5 was good. So I try and get the runoff to come out in that range. Thus the 5.5pH going in and 6.6 coming out. Dunno?

Well I hope I help you help me. Try and make what ever you can of this.
THANKS THANKS THANKS!!!

 

[Johnny Rotten]

What kind of nutes are you feeding? Are you letting the soils get good and dry between waterings? That pot seems a bit big, so waterings could take a while. A 5 gal. pail is bigger that a 5 gal. nursery pot...don't ask me why, but it is. It holds an extra gal. of soil.

I totally agree on the not needed addition of lime. Thats why I don't push the lime...some people have REALLY hard water and lime is only adding to the problem. You get into a situation where there is nothing to do to get your PH down.

 

[Johnny Rotten]

Your using pure blend ORIGINAL? That is not a complete nute. It is meant to be added to a full spectrum nute like General Hydroponics to reduce levels and increase organic activity. That could be a source of your problem...

 

[DRKN_MNKY420]

THese are some pics of the container I use. The smaller one I use to catch the drainage. They fit perfectly inside one another. I drilled holes about the size of a pen or pencil in the corners and on each side towards the middle.


I did use a 5 gallon pail to mix my FFOF, perlite, and lime, then I dump it into the red kitty litter box. It fits perfectly 5 gallons. I have 4 plants all inside this current grow. Last grow I had 6.

I usually go at least 3 days and maybe 7 days until the soil is dry before I water, sometimes I even notice the leaves will droop a little and then after I water/feed they stand right back up.

Pure Blend Pro Bloom and Grow by Botanicare with there micro nute Liquid Karma is what I feed them.

 

[Johnny Rotten]

Ok, Thats a bit low for PBP but I see a bit of burned leave tips in your pics. When did they get burned? Has this yellowing been gradual or has it happened quick? You also did a grow before with the same set-up? how'd that go and what changed?

 

[DRKN_MNKY420]

Well today is day 18 of bloom and I started to notice leaf trouble slowly coming on about 3 weeks ago. The plants looked pretty good back 3 weeks ago. Now the color of the entire canopy is turning lighter and lighter green each day. Once they go completely yellow it only takes 24-48 hours before the fan leaf is dead and crusty brown.

I would say it started slowly and now it is progressing to a point that is making me worrried.

THanks JR.

ADDED:
Well my last grow had trouble that looked like this in late bloom, not this early though.




Changes from last grow to now, I used that GRavity shit at about 35 days into bloom, which I think screwed shit up. First time I tried it. Next time I try it will be on just one plant to compare. Other than gravity, I havn't changed a thing.

Here are some other troubles I had at about 20-25days bloom last go:
Same leaf, different lighting, flash vs. no flash.

 

[Johnny Rotten]

I deleted the last post after your edit.

How do you determine when to water?

 

[DRKN_MNKY420]

Normally I water as needed, when the soil is dry. I can usually stick my finger all the way to the bottom or pretty close to when she is real dry. I watch the leaves too, if they start to droop and the soil is dry, I probably waited a day to long.

I am pretty sure I let this thing dry out enough.

 

[Johnny Rotten]

I'm just kinda thrown for a loop because your old plants look a little over watered and a little over fed but it seems your doing the right things. Your new plants look the opposite to me, a little on the dry side and hungry. Try lifting your container to get a good feel as FFOF is a heavy water holder.

I'd ditch the FFOF and got to an inert medium. Then you can be sure that your not overfeeding. Follow one of the mixes in the stickies and go from there or you can go to a strait pro mix or similar and use the full line of PBP. Wait until they show signs of hunger and start to feed. Also, I'd begin mixing your water with r/o water to bring the PH down. Work on reducing the variables and you'll be on your way to having a little control.

Leave that Gravity alone. I just got the full line-up and am about to trash it...

 

[B.C.]

FEED ME!

FEED ME!

I think there hungry, 5 weeks in the same soil, imo you should up the nutes. PBP isn't very strong. Only being 18 days in flower I'd use alil of the grow and alot more of the bloom ta get em back on track. Don't be afraid of uping the dose, it takes alot ta burn anything with it, and if ya do, a simple flush fixes it. I really don't think it will ever be a problem tho... Next time I wouldn't use any lime with FFOF soil, I've used it many years without it. PBP has a PH buffer in it anyway. I would also water just a lil sooner than when the leaves droop. If yer afraid of over watering, make a bunch of holes in the bottom of yer pot, no worries... Good luck! Take care... BC

 

[Johnny Rotten]

for sure....the post i deleted was telling you to feed a good dose of grow and then switch to 15 ml bloom and see how they do, but those pics you threw in of your old plants made me slam on the brakes. I try to help people figure out why they are having problems and how to fix it, not just a diagnosis of the problem at hand.

 

[B.C.]

for sure....the post i deleted was telling you to feed a good dose of grow and then switch to 15 ml bloom and see how they do

Right now imo they need alil more balanced nutes, they look like there lacking in several things, from not bein fed enough. Besides you shouldn't give a plant this far in flower grow only, it will retard ( leafy, and stretch-y buds ) and slow the flowering process. In mid-flower you can give em some N, but there should always be more P and K in it at the same time. That's my opinion anyway. BC

 

[B.C.]

Btw

Btw

I try to help people figure out why they are having problems and how to fix it, not just a diagnosis of the problem at hand.

Well Johnny, I think if ya -don't- do what's causing the problem anymore, it will go away, right? I'm jus tryin ta help too! lol BC

 

[Johnny Rotten]

I think there is a difference between fixing symptoms and getting to the root of the problem. The problem is he doesn't know if he has nutes in the soil or not, so if he starts with none in there, he knows EXACTLY whats in there. I don't just see it as a nutrient deficiency.

I could of just come in here and say he needed to feed feed feed, but i don't think that really help him at all, in the long run. Ya fell me? BTW he PM'd me to come in here and take a look at em...

 

[Johnny Rotten]

I agree with you on the balanced nutes, i just don't want him to over do it and burn em.

 

[DRKN_MNKY420]

well I am glad both of your are here helping me, this is exactly why these forums are open to the public. Everyone has a chance to help each other and it seems that both of you agree that I need to feed at a higher dosage.

I was already thinking about the lime I was using, but if I don't use the lime, should I purchase the cal/mag to go w/ the pbp bloom/grow? I was using the lime to supplement me cal/mag, not really to pH adjust my soil. Maybe I miss understood the use of lime.

So if I go away from the lime, I shouldn't see these problems in the future? I think that is what B.C. is sayin. And my plants are underfed. And maybe add more drainage.

Now J.R. is saying ditch the lime, ditch the ffof, and go coco, which is something I was considering before we met today. And my plants look under fed.

THE BIG QUESTION IS THIS: WHY ARE MY TIPS BURNT ON MOST OF MY LEAVES OLD AND NEW, IF I AM UNDERFEEDING??? I think this is the puzzling problem.

Well I hope we get this figured out.

THANKS B.C. and J.R. You both rock!

EDITED:
Just thought of another question for both of you, does the pH Down that I have been using have anything to do with my problems? Is using that stuff a bad idea? What pH should I be feeding at and what do you recommend for a runoff?

I was understanding that the runoff should be 6.5, so you adjust your water/food to the right level to get the proper runoff.

I can still buy water at the store, but if I can get away with using tap water, I would prefer. The pH is high, but after I bubble it, it drops to 7.5 which is the same level as the spring water I was buying.

Just figured I got you both talking to me, might as well get all the problems figured out. THanks guys.