MKIVc question

[Gray Wolf]

https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=64097&pictureid=1538359&thumb=1


So far Im liking the outcome but there is one thing that I don't particularly like which is since it's not going to straight dry cotton candy it's a task and a half to scrape it all out of the shatter platter, any suggestions on how to get the whole muffin to dry to that cotton candy consistency?

Also is the oil thicker and more stable due to pulling the hard initial vac in the collection rather than the AI oven? is it due to pulling hard vac in the collection with no atmosphere in it yet? And what can we do to get it to all dry out to the cotton candy...

You might try running less material per run, so you have less oil to recover. It is easier to fluff shallower pools.

I get it to dry by holding it under vacuum in a foam state until it does.

 

[GLDextracts]

how long do you let your material soak?

 

[Gray Wolf]

how long do you let your material soak?

Depends on what I'm making, but usually I don't let the material soak at all. I typically flood two volumes from the bottom, dump the column and rinse one volume from the top.

If I've just stripping material for bulk use, I flood two volumes; one until it overflows, and a second for the same amount of time. I then recover the one volume in the collection pot, then dump the second volume and rinse from the top with the third.

 

[Dab Strudel]

I use welded .034 3/8 304 SS for my IC69... What is this 'through wall flaw' you speak of?

I was wondering GW, I have some trim that promises to yield close to double what I am used to. 20+% over my normal 8-12%. If I was running 8lbs of tane thru 520g of solvent with the 12% stuff would I continue to use the same amount of solvent for the 20+% stuff or will I want to use more? how much more?

 

[Gray Wolf]

I use welded .034 3/8 304 SS for my IC69... What is this 'through wall flaw' you speak of?

With roll formed and resistance butt welded tubing, the most likely flaw would be a cracked weld or lack of fusion. The charts show .035 suitable through 3/8", then .049 for 1/2" and .065 for 5/8 and 3/4".

WolfWurx uses a seamless DOM .049 1/2" tubing on their systems plumbing and heat exchangers.

I was wondering GW, I have some trim that promises to yield close to double what I am used to. 20+% over my normal 8-12%. If I was running 8lbs of tane thru 520g of solvent with the 12% stuff would I continue to use the same amount of solvent for the 20+% stuff or will I want to use more? how much more?

Probably closer to a third more. Remind me what system and process parameters you are using???

 

[Dab Strudel]

Probably closer to a third more. Remind me what system and process parameters you are using???

I.. um. Had a MKIV with a 8" base, but I took it apart and Frankensteined it to be as follows-

Ive now got a 10"x12" base (Just upgraded from a 8"x12" after I posted this morning)

3"x36" columns (I will be using more material and solvent per run when I figure out the numbers)

Top shower only, The amount of material I use reflects on how much solvent I can fit in the base to do one pass to wash the whole column. I am wondering if I could use the following piece under my material column, above a Tri-clamp ball valve, and connect the 1/2" nipple to a 1/2" hose that connects to my old MKIII 6"x6" or 6"x12" lid/collection pot to recover the lb of butane that freezes up in the material column. Should I dump a lb of solvent in to get the last bits of the oil and butane going or would that not collect any oil from the way its set up or will it be counterproductive due to my solvent being so cold?
http://www.glaciertanks.com/Couplers_1_-2_TriClamp-TriClamp_1_1_2_Coupler_6_Length_2_2_2_1.html

I believe my injection temp is -15 to -20 (not sure how id tell for sure, my IC is in a 40 qt pot that is about 80% full of antifreeze and water, which is in a 7.? cuft freezer thats on the lowest setting as it will go)

Can I recover passively faster than or close to as fast as a pump if I kept my systems base in a 70-90 degree bath and pop my tank in the freezer with some dry ice packed around it?

Can I leave the base of my system in water while I inject my solvent or should I take the water out during that time? I dont know if the water will do anything to the 'flow of things' when I am trying to keep the column frozen since I dont freeze it before hand (my column freezes after the solvent passes by it). I am devising a water fall coming out of a elevated water tank with a 300w probe and a pump sucking the water back up, so I can pump all the water out if I need to but I want to be sure it wont hurt with the water before I go through that... and wouldnt you know, now that I am talking to you, I realize I forgot a ball valve to stop the flow when I dont need the water to exchange for periods of time.

Now that Ive described my method, seeing as I can not use more solvent per run (I asked the wrong question), How much less material per column will I use per run? about 1/3 as would be solvent?

 

[Gray Wolf]

I.. um. Had a MKIV with a 8" base, but I took it apart and Frankensteined it to be as follows-

Ive now got a 10"x12" base (Just upgraded from a 8"x12" after I posted this morning)

3"x36" columns (I will be using more material and solvent per run when I figure out the numbers)

Top shower only, The amount of material I use reflects on how much solvent I can fit in the base to do one pass to wash the whole column. I am wondering if I could use the following piece under my material column, above a Tri-clamp ball valve, and connect the 1/2" nipple to a 1/2" hose that connects to my old MKIII 6"x6" or 6"x12" lid/collection pot to recover the lb of butane that freezes up in the material column. Should I dump a lb of solvent in to get the last bits of the oil and butane going or would that not collect any oil from the way its set up or will it be counterproductive due to my solvent being so cold?
http://www.glaciertanks.com/Couplers_1_-2_TriClamp-TriClamp_1_1_2_Coupler_6_Length_2_2_2_1.html

I believe my injection temp is -15 to -20 (not sure how id tell for sure, my IC is in a 40 qt pot that is about 80% full of antifreeze and water, which is in a 7.? cuft freezer thats on the lowest setting as it will go)

Can I recover passively faster than or close to as fast as a pump if I kept my systems base in a 70-90 degree bath and pop my tank in the freezer with some dry ice packed around it?

Can I leave the base of my system in water while I inject my solvent or should I take the water out during that time? I dont know if the water will do anything to the 'flow of things' when I am trying to keep the column frozen since I dont freeze it before hand (my column freezes after the solvent passes by it). I am devising a water fall coming out of a elevated water tank with a 300w probe and a pump sucking the water back up, so I can pump all the water out if I need to but I want to be sure it wont hurt with the water before I go through that... and wouldnt you know, now that I am talking to you, I realize I forgot a ball valve to stop the flow when I dont need the water to exchange for periods of time.

Now that Ive described my method, seeing as I can not use more solvent per run (I asked the wrong question), How much less material per column will I use per run? about 1/3 as would be solvent?

You could use the second tank if you connected your recovery pump to it, so you had some push pull.

I suppose which is faster would depend on the pump and how cold you were able to get the collection tank. A Haskel or a VaporHawg make short work of a 10 X 12” pot.

A Mk IV is big and clumsy enough that I would start out in the water at around 60F if I was running a pump, but stick it in an ice bath or alcohol and dry ice during the injection part, if I was running passively.

I would start by assuming three times as much butane by volume as material. One cubic inch of butane weighs about .0217 pounds.

 

[NorPene Solutions]

Hey GW, any updates on the information and availability of the VaporHawg?

 

[Dab Strudel]

You could use the second tank if you connected your recovery pump to it, so you had some push pull.
I am going to T the second collection pot into my recovery pump just before the filter dryer. I just want to be sure I am collecting any oil in the little collection pot or else I would just buy a 3"-6" cap reducer to avoid the extra fittings and hoses, connect the 6x6 to the top of my material column and recover the rest straight from the top of the column. Now as I say that I am thinking I will do that anyway, I dont need 15 more mins of things to do for a couple g's of food grade.
I suppose which is faster would depend on the pump and how cold you were able to get the collection tank. A Haskel or a VaporHawg make short work of a 10 X 12” pot.
I was thinking more like an Appion or a TR-21. I dont have the electrical power for a screw compressor here.
A Mk IV is big and clumsy enough that I would start out in the water at around 60F if I was running a pump, but stick it in an ice bath or alcohol and dry ice during the injection part, if I was running passively.
The reason behind my question is when you defrost meat, you get a quicker defrost if it sits in cold water vs sits in open air. That plus when I do a run, when it gets down to -10 for the first time I stick my system in 40-50 degree water without closing the ball valve and it immediately starts to thaw the column from the bottom up. This leads me to believe it may be either harder for the column to freeze initially (keeping the overall temp in my column above what I am trying to get it down to). I will have the ability to pump that water out without doing anything too hard, Just close a ball valve and unplug my pump that is circulating.
I would start by assuming three times as much butane by volume as material. One cubic inch of butane weighs about .0217 pounds.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Hey GW, any updates on the information and availability of the VaporHawg?

I suggest checking with [email protected]. Last I heard they had pumps enroute and were awaiting the special motors.

 

[NorPene Solutions]

I suggest checking with [email protected]. Last I heard they had pumps enroute and were awaiting the special motors.

Cool. Thank You, so kindly GW.

 

[Dab Strudel]

We use seamless 304SS tubing from Parker or Swagelok. The minimum wall thickness for gas service is .035" wall thickness for 3/8" and .049" for 1/2".

It has nothing to do with the pressure rating, but instead on the possibility of a through wall flaw as the wall gets thinner.

In the last year NYBrew has sold over 700 of just 1/2 coils with .020 walls. (They didnt stock SS coils because they sold so little of them until last year when our industry came knocking) :/ I asked a company if they could coil the 1/2" SS .035 tubing they had and dude laughed and said 'not possible'. how did you coil yours?

 

[GLDextracts]

Depends on what I'm making, but usually I don't let the material soak at all. I typically flood two volumes from the bottom, dump the column and rinse one volume from the top.

If I've just stripping material for bulk use, I flood two volumes; one until it overflows, and a second for the same amount of time. I then recover the one volume in the collection pot, then dump the second volume and rinse from the top with the third.

ok, so I modded my MK4c to top flood. I ran 5lb of isobutane into my 3x36 column (600gs of material) with dry ice and denatured alcohol. I got back 8 percent.

on my Second run with the same material. did everything the same, when the solvent came to a slow drip out of the column into the collection pot, I closed the ball valve and fit 2 more lbs into the column with has a total of 5.5 lbs of solvent. We let it soak while the solvent in the collection pot was recovering, around 20 mins. This run we got back 16%!

What did I do wrong on my first run?

Also, I picked up filter plates for my 4x36 columns. They do not have a dry ice sleeve. I am going to run chilled solvent (SS tank in dry ice and alcohol) in my room temp material. Im sure i will need a pressure assist so I am going to connect my yellow master cool tank to my SS tank. vapor to Vapor line. How much solvent do I need in my yellow tank to push out the solvent in my SS tank? I have 24lb of 70/30 mix in my SS.
My first time doing this configuration and pressure assist.

 

[Gray Wolf]

In the last year NYBrew has sold over 700 of just 1/2 coils with .020 walls. (They didnt stock SS coils because they sold so little of them until last year when our industry came knocking) :/ I asked a company if they could coil the 1/2" SS .035 tubing they had and dude laughed and said 'not possible'. how did you coil yours?

Not knowing it is impossible, I held on to and rotated the tank we used as a mandrel, while burly son Todd wrapped the 1/2" tightly around it by hand. We've wrapped them as tight as around a foot and as large as 22". While burly in my youth, I'm not in my dotage, so I'm guessing a medium sized wimp could handle the mandrel part.

Ask yourself if you supported one end of the 1/2" tube rigidly and swung from it, if it would support your weight, or would simply bend to the contour supporting it?

We still use .035 for 3/8", but now use .049 wall 1/2" in our heat exchangers, and have our 1/2" counter-flow heat exchangers with a 3/4" outer tube, wound by others.

Check out https://www.albinaco.com/ and bring money.

 

[Gray Wolf]

ok, so I modded my MK4c to top flood. I ran 5lb of isobutane into my 3x36 column (600gs of material) with dry ice and denatured alcohol. I got back 8 percent.

on my Second run with the same material. did everything the same, when the solvent came to a slow drip out of the column into the collection pot, I closed the ball valve and fit 2 more lbs into the column with has a total of 5.5 lbs of solvent. We let it soak while the solvent in the collection pot was recovering, around 20 mins. This run we got back 16%!

What did I do wrong on my first run?

Also, I picked up filter plates for my 4x36 columns. They do not have a dry ice sleeve. I am going to run chilled solvent (SS tank in dry ice and alcohol) in my room temp material. Im sure i will need a pressure assist so I am going to connect my yellow master cool tank to my SS tank. vapor to Vapor line. How much solvent do I need in my yellow tank to push out the solvent in my SS tank? I have 24lb of 70/30 mix in my SS.
My first time doing this configuration and pressure assist.

You might add a perforated diffuser plate at the top of the column, to spread out the stream for top flooding. With top flooding, the liquid finds the easiest way through, which is the center of the mass, cause there is more friction against the walls.

You might consider adding some propane to your mix so it is more aggressive at subzero temperatures.

Face filters work by having pores that are plugged by anything bigger than they are, which takes that pore out of action, until the filter is blinded and becomes an impermeable membrane.

The more surface area, the more pores to plug and there are also body filter membranes, typically a felt, to increase effective surface area.

Consider using a 1 micron felt sock filter, which has enormous surface area compared to the face filters.

You can build your own, but Pharmgold has the WolfWurx Mk VIII designs, and are moving toward offering a product. I also gave the designs to Ari at Sweetleaf, who showed me their own version at the Portland Dope Cup, so would ostensibly be a more immediate solution.

The ratio of vapor to liquid is around ~235:1, so it doesn't take much liquid in the pressure tank, and we typically start with a full LP-5 and run it down to 5 lbs or so (ave 10 lb?), with no problems in the middle.

 

[GLDextracts]

You might add a perforated diffuser plate at the top of the column, to spread out the stream for top flooding. With top flooding, the liquid finds the easiest way through, which is the center of the mass, cause there is more friction against the walls.

You might consider adding some propane to your mix so it is more aggressive at subzero temperatures.

Face filters work by having pores that are plugged by anything bigger than they are, which takes that pore out of action, until the filter is blinded and becomes an impermeable membrane.

The more surface area, the more pores to plug and there are also body filter membranes, typically a felt, to increase effective surface area.

Consider using a 1 micron felt sock filter, which has enormous surface area compared to the face filters.

You can build your own, but Pharmgold has the WolfWurx Mk VIII designs, and are moving toward offering a product. I also gave the designs to Ari at Sweetleaf, who showed me their own version at the Portland Dope Cup, so would ostensibly be a more immediate solution.

The ratio of vapor to liquid is 235:1, so it doesn't take much liquid in the pressure tank, and we typically start with a full LP-5 and run it down to 5 lbs or so (ave 10 lb?), with no problems in the middle.

Thanks Graywolf! Im running today, ill let you know how it goes. I was looking at a 4" cap with a shower head from best value. Anyone else have any recommendations?

 

[KDT]

You might try running less material per run, so you have less oil to recover. It is easier to fluff shallower pools.

I get it to dry by holding it under vacuum in a foam state until it does.

I'd like to start applying this method in the collection pot. One thing I am unsure of is the crossover from the recovery pump to the Vac pump. After taking it down to -15hg, I am guessing it is neccassary to have a ball valve on the port in order to not lose the initial vac of -15hg? Although another comment was made in that he uses a secondary lid to achieve this which would no doubt require the removal of collection lid and exposure to atmosphere. Can you explain the preferred method in doing so? Thank you!

 

[Gray Wolf]

I'd like to start applying this method in the collection pot. One thing I am unsure of is the crossover from the recovery pump to the Vac pump. After taking it down to -15hg, I am guessing it is neccassary to have a ball valve on the port in order to not lose the initial vac of -15hg? Although another comment was made in that he uses a secondary lid to achieve this which would no doubt require the removal of collection lid and exposure to atmosphere. Can you explain the preferred method in doing so? Thank you!

I recover to about -15/20" using the Haskel, and then turn on the vacuum pump, open the vacuum pump isolation valve, and turn off the Haskel. The Haskel check valves make valving it off unnecessary and there is no loss of vacuum during the switch.