Lockout?

[DanTheReggaeFan]

Can anybody help me please. I think I'm having some sort of nutrient lockout (thinking calcium) and was wondering if anyone can help.

Setup:

1m x 0.6m flower cab - 0.4m x 0.6m veg cab
220w Omega L.E.D flower light - 100w Exolux Spica L.E.D veg light
4inch extractor fan
8 plants flower - 4 plants veg
All in coco
3 litre pots
Shogun nutrients - A/B gradually worked up to 3ml per litre, Calmag 1ml per litre, Silicon 1ml per litre, Roots was 0.2ml per litre stopped 2 weeks ago.
pH 5.8 - 6.2 usually closer to 6.0
Fed usually daily, drain to waste, but occasionally 2 days and once 3 days apart
Temps fluctuate usually between 25 - 30c lights on, not sure lights off but obviously cooler
Humidity unknown but think its probably higher than ideal (guessing 60-70ish)
Tap water approx 300ppm

All plants are affected at differing stages. It started about 1-2 weeks ago on the earliest finally showing first signs on the last one today. The veg plants are almost 7 weeks old and the flowering ones are the same age but at different stages of flowering. Have 3 Malawis and a Blueberry X Gelato that went into flower a few days after sprouting, a Chemonade that is almost 3 weeks in flower and 2 OG Kush and 1 Banana Bomb almost 2 weeks in flower. All except the Malawis and BBxG were topped once although I doubt that has anything to do with it. Only a few leaves on each plant are showing signs but I know it will eventually spread to the whole plant and I'd like to stop it before that happens. I'm starting to think I jinxed them because up until 2 weeks ago they were looking so healthy and I was so happy with them lol.

I've previously done approx 20 coco grows in the past and never had any issues but they were all in tents under 600w HPS then I moved house and couldn't grow in tents so built a stealth cupboard and switched to L.E.D and organic for 2 grows but wasn't happy with growth rates and fungus gnats so decided to switch back to coco. This is my first coco grow in the cupboard and I'm literally doing everything the same as I used to the only changed variable is the cupboard and L.E.D. I have read some things about L.E.D. and coco having some sort of interaction but couldn't find anything definitive. I have flushed twice once when I first noticed signs then again yesterday. I just remembered I did originally start at 2ml Calmag per litre (300ppm) because that's what I used to do in the tents but then dropped down to the recommended 1ml per litre when I started seeing signs of lockout and remembered about the coco/L.E.D. interaction. I used to use 2ml Calmag in the tents because I was getting purple stems at 1ml but 2ml greened them up again and I never had any issues with it.

Does anybody have any suggestions? Maybe drop the Calmag to 0.5ml? I'm really not sure but any help will be greatly appreciated.

I've attached a pic of the worst leaf from each plant and a pic of the setup. The plants all in 1 pot are from the organic grow. This time they are all in their own pots. I'll admit it is quite overgrown. I was expecting at least 1 or 2 of the Malawis to be male but they all turned out to be female and I couldn't bring myself to get rid of any (I've really wanted to try this strain for a while now). I will be defoliating a bit once they've all finished the stretch.

 

[DanTheReggaeFan]

 

[tobedetermined]

I can't really help you much but at least I will give your post a bump. Do you know the ec of your feed or waste? I would back off on the nutes and raise the light a bit to see if that helps. Light intensity/proximity to the plants has been an issue for me so I would try raising your light or dialing it back a bit.

 

[DanTheReggaeFan]

I can't really help you much but at least I will give your post a bump. Do you know the ec of your feed or waste? I would back off on the nutes and raise the light a bit to see if that helps. Light intensity/proximity to the plants has been an issue for me so I would try raising your light or dialing it back a bit.

I'm not sure the ec but can check ppm tonight when I feed. I used to check it every grow and write everything in a journal when I was using tents but kinda stopped when I went organic because I was only giving them plain water with the occasional top dress.
You might be on to something with the light though. I never actually had a problem when they were smaller/further from the light and it does seem to be the taller ones that were affected first if I remember correctly. I'll try raising it tonight as well. Thanks man

 

[tobedetermined]

The first sign I usually see of light issues is a bend in the tip of the central leaflet on the top fan leaves. I see that in a number of your pics.

 

[DanTheReggaeFan]

The first sign I usually see of light issues is a bend in the tip of the central leaflet on the top fan leaves. I see that in a number of your pics.

That's good to know thanks. I think because when I was running HPS they would have got burnt before I saw any light overdosing problems I never ran into these problems. I have been getting these L.E.D.s a lot closer and giving them more intense light than usual because I now could, and thought the more light the better especially with these African sativas but maybe that was too much. I've raised the light and turned it down a bit now, hopefully that helps. Thanks man

 

[TanzanianMagic]

Can anybody help me please. I think I'm having some sort of nutrient lockout (thinking calcium) and was wondering if anyone can help.

Setup:

1m x 0.6m flower cab - 0.4m x 0.6m veg cab
220w Omega L.E.D flower light - 100w Exolux Spica L.E.D veg light
4inch extractor fan
8 plants flower - 4 plants veg
All in coco
3 litre pots
Shogun nutrients - A/B gradually worked up to 3ml per litre, Calmag 1ml per litre, Silicon 1ml per litre, Roots was 0.2ml per litre stopped 2 weeks ago.
pH 5.8 - 6.2 usually closer to 6.0
Fed usually daily, drain to waste, but occasionally 2 days and once 3 days apart
Temps fluctuate usually between 25 - 30c lights on, not sure lights off but obviously cooler
Humidity unknown but think its probably higher than ideal (guessing 60-70ish)
Tap water approx 300ppm

All plants are affected at differing stages. It started about 1-2 weeks ago on the earliest finally showing first signs on the last one today. The veg plants are almost 7 weeks old and the flowering ones are the same age but at different stages of flowering. Have 3 Malawis and a Blueberry X Gelato that went into flower a few days after sprouting, a Chemonade that is almost 3 weeks in flower and 2 OG Kush and 1 Banana Bomb almost 2 weeks in flower. All except the Malawis and BBxG were topped once although I doubt that has anything to do with it. Only a few leaves on each plant are showing signs but I know it will eventually spread to the whole plant and I'd like to stop it before that happens. I'm starting to think I jinxed them because up until 2 weeks ago they were looking so healthy and I was so happy with them lol.

I've previously done approx 20 coco grows in the past and never had any issues but they were all in tents under 600w HPS then I moved house and couldn't grow in tents so built a stealth cupboard and switched to L.E.D and organic for 2 grows but wasn't happy with growth rates and fungus gnats so decided to switch back to coco. This is my first coco grow in the cupboard and I'm literally doing everything the same as I used to the only changed variable is the cupboard and L.E.D. I have read some things about L.E.D. and coco having some sort of interaction but couldn't find anything definitive. I have flushed twice once when I first noticed signs then again yesterday. I just remembered I did originally start at 2ml Calmag per litre (300ppm) because that's what I used to do in the tents but then dropped down to the recommended 1ml per litre when I started seeing signs of lockout and remembered about the coco/L.E.D. interaction. I used to use 2ml Calmag in the tents because I was getting purple stems at 1ml but 2ml greened them up again and I never had any issues with it.

Does anybody have any suggestions? Maybe drop the Calmag to 0.5ml? I'm really not sure but any help will be greatly appreciated.

I've attached a pic of the worst leaf from each plant and a pic of the setup. The plants all in 1 pot are from the organic grow. This time they are all in their own pots. I'll admit it is quite overgrown. I was expecting at least 1 or 2 of the Malawis to be male but they all turned out to be female and I couldn't bring myself to get rid of any (I've really wanted to try this strain for a while now). I will be defoliating a bit once they've all finished the stretch.

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"Does anybody have any suggestions? Maybe drop the Calmag to 0.5ml? I'm really not sure but any help will be greatly appreciated."

This looks like phosphorus deficiency/lockout. According to Mulder's Chart, phosphorus is antagonistic with/locks out or is locked out by too much:

copper
zinc
iron
potassium
calcium

Depending on what water you use, you might not even need extra calcium. What is the water's PPM or EC, and what is the source (well, tap, R/O)?

 

[Ca++]

You are feeding beyond the chart, and they don't try and sell you calmag with your water. https://www.shogunfertilisers.com/e...ar|geisha-foliar|pk-warrior-9-18|dragon-force

 

[DanTheReggaeFan]

"Does anybody have any suggestions? Maybe drop the Calmag to 0.5ml? I'm really not sure but any help will be greatly appreciated."

This looks like phosphorus deficiency/lockout. According to Mulder's Chart, phosphorus is antagonistic with/locks out or is locked out by too much:

copper
zinc
iron
potassium
calcium

Depending on what water you use, you might not even need extra calcium. What is the water's PPM or EC, and what is the source (well, tap, R/O)?

I use tap water thats around 300ppm. Not sure what makes up that 300 though. I knew some elements locked out others but couldn't remember which ones affected the other.

Would you recommend going down to 0.5ml or just trying without any? I just find it strange that I've done nearly 20 grows in the past and never had any problems but now I'm L.E.D I'm staring to get them.

 

[DanTheReggaeFan]

You are feeding beyond the chart, and they don't try and sell you calmag with your water. https://www.shogunfertilisers.com/e...ar|geisha-foliar|pk-warrior-9-18|dragon-force

I'm not sure why but I never actually checked their website. Dumb I know lol. This is the chart I always used to follow and I never had problems until now.

 

[tobedetermined]

I don't know Shogun either. Just for comparison here is my current mix per litre hand-watered daily. 5th week of flower. fwiw

1.75 ea A + B Canna Coco
Canna Boost 1.5
calmag 1.0
pH 5.86 - 5.92
ec 1.34 was the last measured
Town water around 350 ppm - filtered with a TallBoy for Chloramine

 

[Ca++]

Does look quite similar. Just no allowance for the tap.
You say the real difference in your grow is the change to LED?

Looking at the chart, it's a base food all the way. With 3 bottles added in bloom. I'm guessing he first is P. Then PK which (as I thought I remembered) is 9/18 not 13/14 or such. Then bottle 3, perhaps just K or flush.

A lot of LED users bumped the feed 40%. Do you have a sacrificial plant?
Sometimes it's best to make up a few different buckets, and feed each plant differently. Within a short amount of time, you will see both mistakes, and hopefully progress.

Your light says it can do 600umol and you have 0.6 meters. With typical transmission losses, maybe 850ppfd. It's going to be a twitchy grow. It's too much while they are unhealthy. Knock it down maybe 30%. A phone app light meter will give you some numbers to watch, while you back off the power. Though the light might be lying anyway. Migrow has a youtube on a ppfd app he things is actually quite good. It could be a better starting point than that boxes claim.

 

[Ca++]

meh. Sleep posting or something.

 

[Creeperpark]

Come on you guys keep it simple. Friend, you have everything down perfectly and your plants would be fine if you didn't use 300 ppm tap water with a mutated pH. Using 300 ppm tap with every watering will block the good stuff and prevent a complete nutrient sequence. Most plants do well, in the beginning, using tap but start to fail by flowering time.

 

[Creeperpark]

I almost forgot, adding cal mag to 300 ppm tap water is a no-no.

 

[tobedetermined]

Most plants do well, in the beginning, using tap but start to fail by flowering time.

Creeper . . . I have to challenge you on this. I have seen you make these definitive statements before and if what you say is correct, I might as well shut off my lights now, chop my flowering monster down and go to the local dispensary for my pot. But somehow . . . . I have jarred a couple of kilos of some pretty decent ganja over the last 5 years. With tap water. And I know that I am not alone. So while you may be right – that in an ideal world you need RO - in the real world – many of us manage just fine.

My current grow . . .

 

[TanzanianMagic]

I use tap water thats around 300ppm. Not sure what makes up that 300 though. I knew some elements locked out others but couldn't remember which ones affected the other.

Would you recommend going down to 0.5ml or just trying without any? I just find it strange that I've done nearly 20 grows in the past and never had any problems but now I'm L.E.D I'm staring to get them.

300 PPM is 0.6 EC. In comparison the hard water I have is already 0.55 EC or 275 PPM.

You don't need extra calcium.

Also, a lot of water companies add chloride and/or chloramide to the water. If you let the water rest next to your plants for a day or so, the chloride has time to evaporate, and you'll see a lower PPM. It also lowers the pH.

 

[Ca++]

300ppm, alone, tells us nothing. It's basically a lie. We can't measure ppm. We measure EC and convert it to a ppm. The greater problem is, that there are 4 ways to do this. Each different, with the common two about 40% different. It's amateur hour before we begin, so I'm not going to to say I know what this 300ppm even means. However, it's probably in the region that feeds expect you to have.

Most feeds are formulated to expect an EC of 0.3 - 0.4 from the tap. It's perfectly normal, and if you don't have that from your tap, you need to start using additives.

There is no sense in removing this moderate hardness from your tap, unless for some reason, your water is unusually balanced. In which case, you can buy a bottle of hardness, to put it back where it should be. Then carry on.

Some feeds have been formulated to work with soft water. People mixing their own would rather put everything they want into soft water, to know there is nothing else present. These are not the norm though.

Shogun comes from Sheffield iirc, which is about 0.3 at the tap. This is why the feed calculator asks your tap EC and says the feed is right for that water. Shogun is not right in RO or Rain, or any other such thing. You would have to fix the water if it were not 0.3 - 0.4 EC

 

[Ca++]

300 PPM is 0.6 EC. In comparison the hard water I have is already 0.55 EC or 275 PPM.

I'm not sure about that. I see you are using the 500 standard. The 500 takes the EC and states it in PPM, with the presumption the salts in use, are actual table salt.

Many use the 700 standard, which would be more like EC 0.4 which is generally what feed like. The guys in the UK, and while meters are all different globally (then shipped to all the wrong countries) the UK is generally a 700 area.


PPM meters are bin fodder. Literally don't exist unless for specific salts, and we don't use just one blend of salts. It is literal nonsense. Fish people are really happy we have made their meters cheap for them. It's a mistake to use them in horticulture though. All we can measure is EC. Look at any proper study or grow opp, there are no ppm meters or columns. It can't be done.


We need to let this go. PPM is a fancy dress costume. A pretender, that if taken seriously, can cause real problems. 40% difference between common meters, isn't even close to repeatable.
Come on people. I need to sleep at night. We can only measure the Electrical Conductivity. To measure ppm, you need to boil off the water and weigh the dust. Don't settle for fancy dress meters.

 

[420PyRoS]

This is exactly how it works with RODS. (Reverse Osmosis Desalination Systems)

Turning sea water into fresh water. EC measures output pass, converts to 'PPM' as a kinda measurement to say yay or nay with salt/mineral content. If it's low, around 420ppm and under, it's drinkable. If over it sends to a backup final pass filter to try and remove that little extra salt and retests the pass. If it fails again, it's dumped. Systems also have UV to sterilize the water before being passed.

Fractured my thumb on one of these bastards, I remember her well.

Anyway, it only really measures salt and mineral/metal content in the water by electrical conductivity as mentioned a few times now.

But you don't know how much of what you are measuring separately. It's a mixing pot of random shit and random %

Example. You can have water measuring 300ppm that's being measured by Electrical conductivity of the water. Meanwhile it might be 100% Calcium and nothing else. You can't measure the calcium content. Nor any other unless you start with a baseline of 0 ppm of some calculation and add salts/minerals