Leonardite as humic acid source

[CascadeFarmer]

I think the claims of humic acid as a fungal food substrate are greatly exaggerated, if not flat out wrong. All my testing and MM's testing with the microscope have shown the exact opposite to be the case.

For the record, in case there was some misunderstanding, I did not say humic acid is a fungal food substrate nor did I say that humic acid was a food for fungi. I said...

It acts as a substrate for fungal activity.

...and there's a difference...and when I said 'it' I was referring to a whole humate product and not humic acid (extract).

lol just noticed the tone I use as an all-round has humates listed in the ingredients

D'Oh!

A little rusty on this stuff but would tend to say that something like a whole humate product, not an extract thereof (humic acid), is more like biochar. If you notice the name of the product I mentioned is HumaCarb (humate carbon in a way). Humic acids really have a different purpose even though HumaCarb contains about 25% HA as tested using the conventional method and like 13% using the CDFA (California Department of Food and Agriculture) method.

So next time you or MM do some tests try biochar and HumaCarb vs humic acid as that's a better comparo IMO.

 

[geoponics13]

humacarb seems beast!but have seen powders that might be better,still though ive always understood that there can not be to much humics in the soil.?also i allways hear add humics and fulvics to tea that have ewc and such,check out burn1 thread organics for benginners.

 

[CT Guy]

For the record, in case there was some misunderstanding, I did not say humic acid is a fungal food substrate nor did I say that humic acid was a food for fungi. I said...
...and there's a difference...and when I said 'it' I was referring to a whole humate product and not humic acid (extract).

D'Oh!

A little rusty on this stuff but would tend to say that something like a whole humate product, not an extract thereof (humic acid), is more like biochar. If you notice the name of the product I mentioned is HumaCarb (humate carbon in a way). Humic acids really have a different purpose even though HumaCarb contains about 25% HA as tested using the conventional method and like 13% using the CDFA (California Department of Food and Agriculture) method.

So next time you or MM do some tests try biochar and HumaCarb vs humic acid as that's a better comparo IMO.

Yeah, I hope you didn't take my post as a personal attack. I just see that claim all the time, not necessarily what you wrote but it made me think of it. You're correct that there's a difference.

I also forgot to mention that I do use humic acid. I use it to complex the chlorine in my water when I'm in a hurry, I use it in my soil mix at low rates to increase chelation, and I use the Tera Vita LC-10+7 which is a chelated humic product as a way to provide low doses of available minerals throughout my plant's life.

I think it has a place in agriculture, though like any "product" I think it's benefits can be overstated is all.

 

[RespectGreen]

check out a product called the other tomato. its humic/fulvic combo with plenty of beneficials and other things to boot.

 

[GoneRooty]

check out a product called the other tomato. its humic/fulvic combo with plenty of beneficials and other things to boot.

Well first, it's like $40/quart!! That's expensive! Second, reading it's ingredients, it's "enzymes" doesn't say what enzymes, blackstrap molasses, trace minerals (probably from azomite/volcanic ash), naturally occuring fulvic and humic acids( 0.3% humic acid derived from leonardite), amino acids and B vitamins. To me this doesn't seem like anything special that most of us aren't already getting in their soils, and the 0.3% humic acid is miniscule.
Also, what "beneficials" did you see in there? According to their ingredient list, there are no mycorrhizae in their mix.

 

[jungliedunglies]

So, I'm green at this, but I guess back to the original focus...what I find interesting is that it is extremely difficult (for me at least) to uncover extactly what is in these wonder bottles we find at the hydro store. Everything seems cloaked in vaguery.

I bought a product called Jurassic Acid. Of course all the dude in the store can say is "Oh yeah bro, it's humic acid maaaaaan, ur plants will love it dude!!!". Well, that's great, and thank you so much for sharing, but my years in the educational system enabled me to read the bottle and tell that it's humic acid derived from Leonardite.

The important part is exactly what does that mean. In this case, how was is derived from Leonardite, using what extraction method? To which the grow store guy starts stuttering and then goes into some half baked explanation about 'ben-ies' that has nothing to do with the question at hand.

I can't find shit about the details on Jurassic Acid anywhere. I'm sure I'm tilting at windmills here, but is there a good resource out there (governmental agency perhaps) through which product manufacturers are required to share their product contents/manufacturing techniques? If so, do we have access to this?

 

[RespectGreen]

it wont let me post a reply to your comment. but i dont have the pamphlet they gave me but it has several different strains of beneficial bacteria also.

 

[CascadeFarmer]

I think it has a place in agriculture, though like any "product" I think it's benefits can be overstated is all.

Thx for that post. I did not take it as a personal attack. As for products I think it's more the right tool for the right job. Spreading compost on a few hundred acres is not practical. I have no vested interest in HumaCarb whatsoever. Another thing it offers is the ability to complex highly soluble nutes as used in large scale agriculture like N and P. Not only can you cut something like N inputs by 25% it also makes the N more biologically friendly. As for products humic acid extracts are more processed than HumaCarb or other whole humate products. Kind of apples and oranges a bit.

their product contents/manufacturing techniques? If so, do we have access to this?

For the most part the typical acid/alkali extraction process is standard in the industry and this process also denatures, from what I understand, the humic acids.

 

[jungliedunglies]

Thanks Cascade....FWIW, the whole right tool for the right job I find to be words of wisdom. I think what got me going on this whole thing was that somewhere I was reading some anti-Leonardite sentiment. I didn't really grasp the reasoning behind why so I decided to try to find out what might be the objection.

If I don't completely misunderstand the source I quoted (which is very much a possibility ), it sounds like they use the hydroxide compontent of either sodium hydroxide, aluminum hydroxide, or potassium hydroxide to extract the humic acid, in the process leaving free cations which can possibly be harmful (in the case of sodium and aluminum) or beneficial (potassium). I guess I was wondering how to find this out. They don't have a website. There is a big OMRI stamp on the bottle for whatever that's worth, but nothing pops up on the OMRI site about it.

It's all making my head hurt just a little; what was that about compost again???

 

[rrog]

I understand this hurting of the head. I have continuously simplified my grows and also improved them. Started with chem ferts and plan to do compost, EWC and minimal amendments next. That will be my simplest and best grow I believe.

I wonder if humic acid builds up more over time in compost. Like comparing fresher, just ready stuff compared to year old compost. I bet the humic acid levels contnue to rise

 

[CascadeFarmer]

If I don't completely misunderstand the source I quoted (which is very much a possibility ), it sounds like they use the hydroxide compontent of either sodium hydroxide, aluminum hydroxide, or potassium hydroxide to extract the humic acid, in the process leaving free cations which can possibly be harmful (in the case of sodium and aluminum) or beneficial (potassium). I guess I was wondering how to find this out. They don't have a website. There is a big OMRI stamp on the bottle for whatever that's worth, but nothing pops up on the OMRI site about it.

They typically use sodium or potassium hydroxide. I've never heard of someone using aluminum hydroxide. OMRI is a joke. Humic acids are strongly influenced by pH and the wicked acid/alkaline swing that happens during the extraction process is, from what I understand, detrimental.

There's some old information I have somewhere which talks about how the actual molecular structure of humic acid, which is really encompasses a 'family' of molecules and is not a or one particular molecule, morphs/changes based on pH. Struck me as almost alive.

 

[CascadeFarmer]

I was reading some anti-Leonardite sentiment. I didn't really grasp the reasoning behind why so I decided to try to find out what might be the objection.

I'm pretty much anti-leonardite, if you're talking about a whole non-extracted product also, except when you're talking about small particle size. I would not recommend using something like HumaCarb in most hydro situations especially in DWC. Humic acid would be better in something like DWC though.

 

[jungliedunglies]

I hear ya there...I'm fascinated by where that boundary is. Somewhere in there amonsgt all of these molecular interactions begins life, at least as far as we perceive life. Organic or inorganic it all comes down to sharing of electrons and somewhere in there, from one of those bonds we cross an imaginary line and enter the realm of things 'alive'. The more I learn about bio-molecular interactions it feels the more blurry this line becomes.

 

[jungliedunglies]

I'm pretty much anti-leonardite, if you're talking about a whole non-extracted product also, except when you're talking about small particle size. I would not recommend using something like HumaCarb in most hydro situations especially in DWC. Humic acid would be better in something like DWC though.

Perhaps that was my issue there. Maybe what was being talked about was a direct unextracted application and I mistakenly assumed otherwise. It was in the context of a soil mix/preparation situation.

 

[rrog]

Humic acids are strongly influenced by pH and the wicked acid/alkaline swing that happens during the extraction process is, from what I understand, detrimental.

Not surprising at all. When we try to copy what nature does we often fall short. Compost-sourced Humic Acid is not surprisingly the winner. And I have a bag of Humic Acid that will not get used. But I'm glad I now know.

I'd also be interested to know more of the pH affect of Humic Acid configurations, and why some configurations are apparently more useful than others.

Very interesting thread.

 

[jungliedunglies]

I found this USDA site with a decent primer on soil biology. If anyone is interested you can scroll through with the links on the left side or use the next/previous page options at the bottom. Sort of the same type of info you would find in "Teaming With Microbes", but some neat snippets in there for those of you who are in the learning process like me:

http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/concepts/soil_biology/soil_food_web.html

This bit defining humus I found descriptive enough to grab onto:

"Humus or humified organic matter: Complex organic compounds that remain after many organisms have used and transformed the original material. Humus is not readily decomposed because it is either physically protected inside of aggregates or chemically too complex to be used by most organisms. Humus is important in binding tiny soil aggregates, and improves water and nutrient holding capacity."

 

[moonlight7]

old thread, thanks for the information guys. yeah, leonardite is the best source of humic acid

 

[Dkgrower]

U dont need it,

 

[bigshrimp]

I use humics mostly in soil that is cooking, act, and occasionally in my worm bin. Whenever i want to speed up the process or kick start soil ecology. When using fulvic on plants i tend to go way low, about 1 ml per gallon.

On the op... compost is the only source of humid acid.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

compost is the only source of humid acid

>>shakes head<<