LED Lab 2009

[Troopler]

great work bf74. haters and nay sayers should remain dirt off your shoulder. i just want to say i like what you have done with the ufo so far. however, my research led (no pun intended) me to go with a different brand which is $100 more expensive.

I was wondering wondering if you have thought of supplementing light with and LED ribbon. They push 28.8watts through 360 emitters and come in all the necessary color bands.

The more I look into it, why don't manufactures make pure white LED grow lights? I mean the whites have more than triple the lumens, efficiency, and better penetration.

 

[VladTheInhaler]

Man, when I first started getting into micro grows, everyone was tying to convince me that I need 400 w hps and a 2m closet, than there were people who claimed that nothing could be grown under cfls, and now you get heat for using LEDs.
What people are doing here is experimenting with their own money and time for the benefit of us all. Im glad that bf74 is around and willing to test those products, because they are currently waay out of my buying power, but I still get to see independent test results.
I currently use a 150 w hps, but I will test the 50 w ufo because I want to save on electricity and perhaps finally be able to move my growbox from the balcony into my room.

 

[asde]

bf, try to talk me again when you grew up.

knna please show me those links, would be very interesting what kind of super special led and spectrum they used.. i saw people building grow lights on their own using only the best leds available on the market and guess what? the time for led grows hasnt come yet if your after a good balance..

tbh you should know that the advertised "facts" are nothing but bullshit and thats what im trying to tell.. too many people just believe blind - not only that, they dont get any good results but still saying that its the ultimative rox just to satisfy theirself
here&now if you know what i mean..

and about the cmh issue, 70w cmh efficiency is on par with 400w hps, you can yield over 1.1g/w with an less efficient 150w cmh (old brand + third run + unused space)

 

[EllieGrows]

I really appreciate the work that the LED community is doing and I hope that in the future we will all be growing with LED's. Thanks!

 

[Architechno]

bf74, all of your plants have yellowed tips, why is that?

If I was to supplement my LED light with two PL-L's (one on each side) what would be the best spectrum? my flowering room would be mod-scrog, with one half for plants starting flowering, and the other side would be for plants ending flowering. So what kind of light is best for early, and what is best late?

 

[pinstripe]

Hey asde. I understand you haven't read a whole lot about LEDs, and that's probably why you dropped those exaggerated comments.

HID bulbs efficiency drops with lower rated wattage. I believe the 600W versions give you the most light/W. Also, most growers use overhead lighting, and the usable light from an HID gets reduced to like 75-80% when using a good reflector. LEDs aren't affected by any of those factors. If you want more watts, just add another LED.

Today, red LEDs have an efficiency of about 25-30%. I believe blue ones reach over 35%. And of course those numbers are PAR as LEDs have narrow spectrums. In terms of the watts a 70W CMH bulb uses, I'm having a hard time believing over 30% of those watts are emitted in PAR.

Also, bear in mind that the most commonly used "HID g/W convention" does only account for the watts used by the HID bulb. Most growers yielding 400g with a 400W hps say they get 1g/W, even though the whole lamp system uses close to 500W.
HID ballasts and LED drivers pretty much have the same efficiency, so making a fair comparison between a LED and an HID-system isn't complicated at all.

Mr.X on the spanish forum cannabiscafe yielded 380g with two 120W LED lights (think they were $400 each.) And I'm pretty sure the 120W rating included the drivers. So in watts, those lights would be equal to two 100W HID/CMH systems. With google translate, Mr.X's grow is called "The "bawdy" ", and the thread is a sticky in the dedicated LED grow section.

CMHs are awesome though, I'm not gonna argue with that. And many cheap chinese LED lights suck. Why could that be? Because they're made out of cheap, stinky components But according to that youtube comparison, an outdated 90W UFO vegs just as good as a 400W HPS.

 

[asde]

yes he yields that much whil other experienced growers using only newest cree/edison led yielding like 0.6g/w ... theres something wrong dude (reminds me the ledgrow eu guy haha)

 

[Troopler]

If you want more watts, then add another LED.

Today, red LEDs have an efficiency of about 25-30%. I believe blue ones reach over 35%. And of course those numbers are PAR as LEDs have narrow spectrums.

This was the point i was wondering earlier. Since white and amber LEDs far surpass the output of red and blue LEDs, would i be wrong in assuming that 1 white LED is as good as a red and a blue combined. I mean the white push triple the output as red or blue. Why are we not seeing amber and cool white mix led grow lights? is it a cost issue?

 

[fatigues]

yes he yields that much whil other experienced growers using only newest cree/edison led yielding like 0.6g/w ... theres something wrong dude (reminds me the ledgrow eu guy haha)

There has been considerable information published on LED growing - and as you know - not all of it has been positive. Some of it has been plain bad.

knna, b474 and Weezard have all done their best to respond to us here on ICMag with their own findings. You may not appreciate their posts - and that's perfectly fine. That's your right.

But some of us do appreciate them, ok? We find it interesting and their comments insightful and informative.

It doesn't do anybody any good to just come on in and threadcrap. If you are interested, stick around and evaluate bf74's grows and his findings, ok? Keep an open mind.

But just picking a fight and being contrary just-to-be-contrary doesn't really help anybody.

Chillax bro.

 

[LeoRexTyrannus]

Like has been said by ProSource, and given the data I've seen I believe they're correct, an improper balance of brute force energy will overwhelm Chlorophyll A, this will cause a lose of synergy in the plant, causing it to stunt.

This would explain how much powerful arrays are not growing at the rate of what BF74 has going on. I think what is in order, is someone akin to Weezard with his results, being given one of these Jumbo UFO's in a 4x4 vs his current panel(s) in a 4x4, and I would trust his conclusions being he is playing with quite a monster of an array and I've seen his practical hands on results over the last year, Knna, one of your Spanish forum friends might be a prime candidate as well.

 

[pinstripe]

This was the point i was wondering earlier. Since white and amber LEDs far surpass the output of red and blue LEDs, would i be wrong in assuming that 1 white LED is as good as a red and a blue combined. I mean the white push triple the output as red or blue. Why are we not seeing amber and cool white mix led grow lights? is it a cost issue?

I believe you are thinking about the luminous efficacy. That just means how bright the emitted light looks to the human eye, it doesn't really say how many watts of radiation (light) that are emitted.
In terms of emitted watts, I'm sure white leds are more efficient than red ones, but I'm not sure they are better than blue ones. That is because white leds usually are made out of a phosphorous coated blue led. There has got to be losses in the conversion.

The reason why we're not seeing grow lights with only a mix of whites is most likely because of the cost.

I'd say the major reason is because people are tuning in the most effective spectrum with which to grow cannabis. A well balanced spectrum can make a great impact on growth. So when we've found a great spectrum, we can sit back and wait for the engineers and scientists to develop more efficient leds.

yes he yields that much whil other experienced growers using only newest cree/edison led yielding like 0.6g/w ... theres something wrong dude (reminds me the ledgrow eu guy haha)

Well mister, what's wrong is your knowledge isn't up to date. A lot of good results have been shown over the last 5 months. And the "ledgrow eu" guy yielded about 1g/W three times with his old 60W setup. You still haven't shown us that 70W CMH grow that ended up over 1g/W.

Also, Mr.X yeilded 550g with a 600W HPS, so I'd say he's experienced enough

Knna has written a lot on LED grow lights on growing forums. Feel free to educate yourself. Even bothering to read something in this thread would help you out a lot!

Good luck!

 

[LeoRexTyrannus]

bf, try to talk me again when you grew up.

knna please show me those links, would be very interesting what kind of super special led and spectrum they used.. i saw people building grow lights on their own using only the best leds available on the market and guess what? the time for led grows hasnt come yet if your after a good balance..

tbh you should know that the advertised "facts" are nothing but bullshit and thats what im trying to tell.. too many people just believe blind - not only that, they dont get any good results but still saying that its the ultimative rox just to satisfy theirself
here&now if you know what i mean..

and about the cmh issue, 70w cmh efficiency is on par with 400w hps, you can yield over 1.1g/w with an less efficient 150w cmh (old brand + third run + unused space)

Listen with all due respect, Knna, his Spanish forum friends, Weezard, BF, Oldyeller etc, (sorry if I left you out not personal) as well as LEDGrow.EU have all shown their work to the class, if you want to argue with the few people actually experiementing in this field then fine do so, it's foolish and they're pioneers.

Single handedly they have all saved individuals thousands of dollars on buying inferior equipment with their sacrifices, so rather than the insults perhaps you should give them a humble "Thank you" for spending their money to share advances with this community THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO.

It goes back to this, I think someone is onto the proper ratio and blend, and they're hording it for themselves while they cash crop their rivals into oblivion, someone somewhere is laughing at FLIR and those spending a fortune on electricity.

A 400W CMH will not out yield a 400W HPS, I say that using CMH at 400W, what it will however do is give you tighter inter node spacing, with lusher foliage, denser flowers/buds w/ vastly increased resin production. But as for having a final weight higher? No. Wrong.

This isn't up for debate, go to the CMH thread on this forum that really kicked off the transition of so many non-believers into CMH growers. You've got guys on there that have grown with everything from 4000W setups all the way down to 150W cabinet growers. They all agree HPS out yields in weight, under yields in quality.

We've had discussions on this very thread about the issue being the Amberish/Orangish spectra that HPS commands over CMH, and now it seems that I was correct in this assumption as the field reports using those spectra are reporting increased biomass production.

I'm not trying to vilify you, perhaps the growers you have seen that can't pull these numbers are not that good, or maybe they don't have proper environments for it, but to say it's impossible simply because someone else can't achieve it, is ignorant in the least.

I do not purport to be the greatest grower on Earth, nor do these people, so please do not mock them in such a manner.

BF74 is using an offering from ProSource, and ProSource just changed the line up from tri-bands to five-bands, those additional two spectra are from what BF is reporting doing exactly as ProSource claims, they do have a 90-Day no questions ask full refund policy, they do not seem as if they're worried their products can't live up to their claims.

And given the fact that he has a fatter stem than the plant I know can have over an inch thick stem outdoors, on a plant that has been alive less than half of the time. I am seriously impressed.

I would argue that BF's grows are not even optimal as I see signs of nutrient damages on some of his photos (though it could just be flowering stresses) regardless, anyone that knows, can see the quality of the growth.

Let him have a month under the Jumbo before you knock it.

You know things are getting screwy when I have to be the voice of reason =P

 

[asde]

the main problem i see in all those "successfull" led grows.. all are somehow linked with distributors .. ledgrow eu is actually the most obvious fake


@fatigues
you didnt understand what im after? im absolutely pro the things about led but distributors who try to sell their overpriced stuff advertising with lies to find blind people to buy it.. and i dislike people who support this kind of behave..

@pinstripe
i didnt said he wasnt experienced, i said others who tried been experienced too - theres a slight difference


about the cmh things:
i never said 400w cmh outyields 400w hps, i acutally told many times that cmh is only good for micro cabs because the higher watt cmh are not as efficient as the low watt ones.. but you know theres an 315w cmh with cri >90 and 120lm/w at 3000k coming soon, maybe that one can touch high watt hps too

 

[Troopler]

I believe you are thinking about the luminous efficacy. That just means how bright the emitted light looks to the human eye, it doesn't really say how many watts of radiation (light) that are emitted.
In terms of emitted watts, I'm sure white leds are more efficient than red ones, but I'm not sure they are better than blue ones. That is because white leds usually are made out of a phosphorous coated blue led. There has got to be losses in the conversion.

This is a chart that threw me for a curve ball. It seems to me there is no point in dialing in the spectrum if white LEDs can actually perform at this level. I mean granted there are losses and not the entire spectrum is used by the plant but it seems that 1 white is as good as a red and a blue combined...or am i missing something. i mean, why dial in if the white and amber have it all?

i think we are in agreement that this must be a cost issue. red and blue seem to be the cheapest LEDs out there. although to me it seems that the most efficient light would be mostly amber and cool white with a few red and blue thrown in to beef up those particular parts of the spectrum.

i hope a i am not making a total ass out of myself...i am just confused about the methodology of LED builds at this point.

 

[knna]

Asde, I can ensure you growers doing journal on the LED growing section of cannabiscafe arent linked to any lamp's builder. Some of them are newbies to growing, so just they have choosed that lighting because currently is the most adecuate for micro grows, and some are experienced growers veterans of the forum who wanted to test the perfomance of LED lighting.

They have got the lamps through group buys of the forum, where a group of growers join to get cheaper prices. They dont have any reason to lie, as they are not rewarded on any way for doing so. Journals had been very well documented, with lots of pics along all the growing where you can see how they are going.

Some of the micro growers are getting better results with home made lamps costing a little more of 100€ than with small HIDs, and being able to grow still on the hot conditions of spanish summer, something that is simply impossible on many cases here.

We all agree that there is a lot of bad designed LED lamps using crappy components out there. This topic has being addressed previously in this thread, which main initial purpose was to distinguish between what works and what not.

But the fact is that there are LED lamps that works, and do it very well. We are working to improve them, so as LED prices continue dropping, people may use them with confidence.

LEDs and HIDs arnt opposed. Its perfectly possible to use them together and get the best advantages of both. But we need to understand the advantages of each in order to use the best way. We are still learning how to get the best of LEDs. But I dont have any doubt that most growers will use them, total or partially, on the near future.

2 years ago, there wasnt any sucessfull LED grow reported. Last year, some grows with decent results appeared, still not being cost effective. This year many sucessfull LED grows had been documented, and some of them being cost effective in the long run, although not the mayority right now. Probably next year we will see several LED grows being cost effective, and we will get used to see them as another lighting alternative. And on 2 years, probably its going to be difficult to find growers that wont use them, at least in part.

 

[billyjojimbob11]

I would also like to say I have 112 watt led system at this time that is surpassing my old 250 watt HPS. No horse shit. Pics...

BTW, I have 20 of these under 112watts, they are now yielding 10gr each, you do the math. 200gr / 112w = ? LOL!

I have come to the conclusion that people that think they know everything, are under the impression that the people doing the experiments know less than they do. Thats just hilarious to me, hence the label "know it all" was born.

 

[Architechno]

thank you for stirring up shit asde, I have learned much from the rebuttals to your silliness.

I'm really high so I might have said this before... but thank you guys for this thread and all the time you've spent explaining what you yourself spent hours learning and refining. Thanks to the incredibly condensed knowledge in threads like this I have been able to start growing faster and more stealthily than I imagined.

In about 3 months expect to see a grow report from me about my LED/PL-L hybrid flowering room that is now being designed and built.
By January you will see first designs for a brand new, Revit designed and rendered stealth flowering cabinet that will use one 150w CMH bulb and two ~63w LED panels to light a 9 square foot bowl-scrog. It will be slowly and patiently hand crafted to fit together perfectly and will be optimized for maximum efficiency and functionality. It will be stealthy in ways mortals have only dreamt about, utilizing redundant disguises and security measures to assure that even if you have a drunk party slut nosing around your room in the dead of morning, she will have no chance of discovering anything. It will be made with the finest parts to ensure long term durability, and to make sure it will not look out of place any time in the next 25 years. It will be a work of art. First harvest report should be before next summer.

 

[Weezard]

Excellent lemonade!

Excellent lemonade!

thank you for stirring up shit asde, I have learned much from the rebuttals to your silliness.

!

You, I like.

Weeze

 

[VladTheInhaler]

Hey, billyjojimbob, do you have a dr Bud SOG? What kind of LEDs are u using?

 

[Architechno]

Hey, billyjojimbob, do you have a dr Bud SOG? What kind of LEDs are u using?

What he said. What's your LED panel?