maybe try a tincture type press?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/231589237284?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true
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larger scale ethanol extraction vs BHO. time, cost, and yields
- Thread starter Ttnicksocal
- Start date
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/231589237284?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true
I hand press the plant material in the chinoise strainer during draining, but found by the time I transfered it to the tincture press, most of the available alcohol had evaporated to the point of no return.
There is a device that runs like this 'salad spinner': Dr Green Machine something or other.
Uses a 5 micron nylon strap, 16 inches long or so, wrapped around the outside edge of a fritted bowl with a centrifuge holding the material in a basket. I think its for phoenix tears.
Uses a 5 micron nylon strap, 16 inches long or so, wrapped around the outside edge of a fritted bowl with a centrifuge holding the material in a basket. I think its for phoenix tears.
Hey I am new to posting in this forum but I also am experiencing a similar problem and thought i would share my experiments thus far and see what you guys think.
Im using a 50L jacketed glass reactor with 190proof ethanol for my extraction. With 50L of etoh and around 8-10lbs of trim i am losing anywhere from 10-20L of etoh due to it being absorbed into the plant material after a 20min soak at -40F/C. obviously this is a big issue due to the price of 190proof.
Prior to the soak we partition 1/2lbs of material into nylon mesh filter bags and put those into the reactor once the etoh is down to temp. After the soak we pull the bags and press them through a big stainless steel cheese press.
We get a decent amount of etoh recovered this way, but not nearly as much as we lost (maybe 5-8L). Since it is warmer than -40 we also start pulling way more chlorophyll and fats/lipids/waxes as well during the press. Then we throw the already pressed bags into a containier in a -10 freezer for about 24-48 hours, about 2L or so of etoh accumulates into the bottom. so slowly we can recover a little more of that absorbed etoh in the plant material. The quality goes down and the solution is the color of a green jolly rancher.
This process gets some of the absorbed etoh back but is in no way efficient for a reproducible extraction on a regular basis. I am wondering if there is a better way to get the absorbed etoh back in a more timely and efficient manner. Here are my thoughts on how to proceed:
1. after the bulk of the etoh is drained from the reactor, heat the jacket up and do a simple distillation under vacuum to recover the etoh. but any oil in that etoh would now be lost in the trim. reducing overall yields. plus the time it takes for your chiller to go from being really cold to warming up.
2. I found this hobart salad dryer with an 18lb capacity. similar to the dr green machine. after the soak you could load this up with about 8-10lbs of etoh saturated trim and spin it like a centrifuge to get the etoh out. I am worried however about the spark of the motor on start up and if it has enough force to get enough etoh out compared to the press and throw it in the freezer method.
http://www.webstaurantstore.com/hobart-sdpe-11-20-gallon-polyethylene-salad-dryer/425SDPE11.html?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping&gclid=CjwKEAjwhILABRDwo8mlqt6ug38SJACNSq_kF8LfeB1kkkkRdJ-rOkW82whCjNfR-spM2jsHttOnyxoCov7w_wcB
What are your guys thoughts on this or do you have any other ideas on how to get etoh out of plant material? If this can be solved then alot of the issues with large scale etoh extraction would be minimized and make it more cost efficient.
Im using a 50L jacketed glass reactor with 190proof ethanol for my extraction. With 50L of etoh and around 8-10lbs of trim i am losing anywhere from 10-20L of etoh due to it being absorbed into the plant material after a 20min soak at -40F/C. obviously this is a big issue due to the price of 190proof.
Prior to the soak we partition 1/2lbs of material into nylon mesh filter bags and put those into the reactor once the etoh is down to temp. After the soak we pull the bags and press them through a big stainless steel cheese press.
We get a decent amount of etoh recovered this way, but not nearly as much as we lost (maybe 5-8L). Since it is warmer than -40 we also start pulling way more chlorophyll and fats/lipids/waxes as well during the press. Then we throw the already pressed bags into a containier in a -10 freezer for about 24-48 hours, about 2L or so of etoh accumulates into the bottom. so slowly we can recover a little more of that absorbed etoh in the plant material. The quality goes down and the solution is the color of a green jolly rancher.
This process gets some of the absorbed etoh back but is in no way efficient for a reproducible extraction on a regular basis. I am wondering if there is a better way to get the absorbed etoh back in a more timely and efficient manner. Here are my thoughts on how to proceed:
1. after the bulk of the etoh is drained from the reactor, heat the jacket up and do a simple distillation under vacuum to recover the etoh. but any oil in that etoh would now be lost in the trim. reducing overall yields. plus the time it takes for your chiller to go from being really cold to warming up.
2. I found this hobart salad dryer with an 18lb capacity. similar to the dr green machine. after the soak you could load this up with about 8-10lbs of etoh saturated trim and spin it like a centrifuge to get the etoh out. I am worried however about the spark of the motor on start up and if it has enough force to get enough etoh out compared to the press and throw it in the freezer method.
http://www.webstaurantstore.com/hobart-sdpe-11-20-gallon-polyethylene-salad-dryer/425SDPE11.html?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping&gclid=CjwKEAjwhILABRDwo8mlqt6ug38SJACNSq_kF8LfeB1kkkkRdJ-rOkW82whCjNfR-spM2jsHttOnyxoCov7w_wcB
What are your guys thoughts on this or do you have any other ideas on how to get etoh out of plant material? If this can be solved then alot of the issues with large scale etoh extraction would be minimized and make it more cost efficient.
It's no accident that QWET/ISO isn't an industrial process, which has always been petroleum ether concrete then ethanol absolute. This feels like the supersizing of BHO which also comes with unnecessary added problems. So, why? Seriously this is the number one question I've had since signing up here.
It seems that everyone wants to make extraction and startup cost so much more than drums of petroleum ether and SS tanks with stirrer from a big pharma auction and it still makes no sense to me from either a chemical engineering or profitability point of view, since there will be big rotavaps also purchased regardless. How could such a producer not eat the lunch of everyone else?
It seems that everyone wants to make extraction and startup cost so much more than drums of petroleum ether and SS tanks with stirrer from a big pharma auction and it still makes no sense to me from either a chemical engineering or profitability point of view, since there will be big rotavaps also purchased regardless. How could such a producer not eat the lunch of everyone else?
People looking to make distillate will be winterizing and filtering with ethanol even if they are starting with a bho concentrate.. so using ethanol for the initial extraction could be more efficient and less equipment than also running a bho extraction.. I'm sure the recovery rates for alcohol could be increased if using a vacuum assist on the material with trapped butane (think closed loop) but then that requires the catch 22 of utilizing the same equipment as you would to make bho along with the rotovap for the majority of the solvent recovery... dealing with only one solvent that isn't pressurized can greatly simplify the process, alcohol it seems can have other pitfalls when doing large scale production. One thing to consider is the regulations, in certain places oils made with ethanol are considered concentrates, while hydrocarbons like butane and propane are considered extracts, and these have different legal definitions and requirements to produce.. so that is something to consider is the facility as a whole and what a cls requires vs. a rotovap building code and fire safety approval wise.
How coincidental, using a washing machine came to me a few days ago... in your case disconnect everything but the drum motor which should be sparkless, but of course check first.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=7659923&postcount=18
Ethanol + Soxhlet extractor. 
dank.Frank
dank.Frank
I'd seen that OR allowed unlicensed alcohols etc. producers up to Oct. 1 but apparently now everyone has to be licensed and unlicensed production is a felony. I never found anything giving me different requirements for licensing or other actual differences. Anywhere else?
At the 5 chemical plants I've worked in and others seen, in the main the equipment hasn't changed much since the 30's or earlier, because there is no benefit in cost and maintenance - everything couldn't be simpler or cheaper.
Also there is no benefit to alcohol over hydrocarbon when the hydrocarbon is cheaper and in the case of petroleum ether no chilling is required other than at the rotavap condensers. And the recovery of petroleum ether from plant matter and nonhazardous handling and disposal of same is simple and relatively inexpensive and Mychron's recovery predicament is avoided in the first place.
Only 88 pages? It won't be getting smaller over time for sure. Now I see the difference I was looking for. Thanks!
A processor with an endorsement to make cannabinoid extracts:
(b) Must:
(B) Use a professional grade closed loop extraction system designed to recover the
solvents and built to codes of recognized and generally accepted good engineering
standards, such as those of:
(i) American National Standards Institute (ANSI);
(ii) Underwriters Laboratories (UL); or
(iii) The American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM).
(C) If using carbon dioxide in processing, use a professional grade closed loop carbon dioxide gas extraction system where every vessel is rated to a minimum of six hundred pounds per square inch.
There is no definition of closed loop extraction.
So then, the traditional and unpatentable methods of processing used by the perfume and pharmaceutical industries, for which a large amount of inexpensive, well-known, safe and reliable equipment already exists, is not permitted? How convenient that heptane is treated the same as propane and CO2, for propane extraction equipment manufacturers and CO2 pot extraction patent owners.
Well no wonder you're not worried about competition from low cost facilities using real-world solvents. GW's boasts of having great influence were correct. Isn't this Indra/gyro cat patent holder and extractor seller saying on Hash Church something like he's convinced the authorities that the only systems that should be allowed are his? Do they feel that this is model legislation that should be copied everywhere?
Want to extract with a pure but otherwise shitty solvent using ordinary equipment and standard techniques? Fine, great, no problem if you have the license. Want to use a solvent worth using with the same equipment? Hold on there, sorry, no, you need totally unnecessary expensive equipment from the bizarro world of pot extraction people - who are not chemists or chemical engineers, just like those who wrote the legislation.
A processor with an endorsement to make cannabinoid extracts:
(b) Must:
(B) Use a professional grade closed loop extraction system designed to recover the
solvents and built to codes of recognized and generally accepted good engineering
standards, such as those of:
(i) American National Standards Institute (ANSI);
(ii) Underwriters Laboratories (UL); or
(iii) The American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM).
(C) If using carbon dioxide in processing, use a professional grade closed loop carbon dioxide gas extraction system where every vessel is rated to a minimum of six hundred pounds per square inch.
There is no definition of closed loop extraction.
So then, the traditional and unpatentable methods of processing used by the perfume and pharmaceutical industries, for which a large amount of inexpensive, well-known, safe and reliable equipment already exists, is not permitted? How convenient that heptane is treated the same as propane and CO2, for propane extraction equipment manufacturers and CO2 pot extraction patent owners.
Well no wonder you're not worried about competition from low cost facilities using real-world solvents. GW's boasts of having great influence were correct. Isn't this Indra/gyro cat patent holder and extractor seller saying on Hash Church something like he's convinced the authorities that the only systems that should be allowed are his? Do they feel that this is model legislation that should be copied everywhere?
Want to extract with a pure but otherwise shitty solvent using ordinary equipment and standard techniques? Fine, great, no problem if you have the license. Want to use a solvent worth using with the same equipment? Hold on there, sorry, no, you need totally unnecessary expensive equipment from the bizarro world of pot extraction people - who are not chemists or chemical engineers, just like those who wrote the legislation.
Josh@Summit
New member
In a large production setting, hydrocarbon extraction equipment is generally cheaper for the same amount of processing power as an ethanol machine. Because like you said, chilling is not required. The chillers add a huge cost increase to the equipment.
For commercial facility run by money savvy processors, hydrocarbon extraction is better than ethanol extraction.
PDX Dopesmoker
Active member
Yeah, I just saw something like that on instagram that looks pretty good. deltaseparations on IG has this a video of this Frenchy approved centrifuge in action
Kinda bugs me that so such cool stuff is instagram only these days, not all that hard to post a MP4 on a website, they make it hard enough to link IG images here. I don't like the GPS devices that IG mostly runs on either...ahahaha never mind i ain't mad anymore here is a link to the video
https://scontent-sjc2-1.cdninstagra...10_1811047139110447_2057273065447882752_n.mp4
I just look at the video again & realized it doesn't say anything about temperature control.
Maybe it's bearings that are lubricated well enough for operation in a walk in freezer?
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Try it out with a $35 used, centrifugal juicer, posts #143-150,
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=315812&highlight=omega+6001&page=15
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=315812&highlight=omega+6001&page=15
PDX Dopesmoker
Active member
I would if I ran that kind of volume personally, but I don't think any industry official would put their seal of approval on it if I was trying to make extracts for legal sale. These guy's machine apparently meet some kind of safety standards or some such.
I personally haven't had a lab accident since 1997 when I tried to use my bic as a light source.
Ttnicksocal
Member
Thanks for linking that video. The centrifuge is no joke. I looked on their website and couldn't find any information on it. You have any idea what it might cost for that sized model?
PDX Dopesmoker
Active member
Send them an email and tell us what you find out
Pastelero
Active member
I remember FenchyCanoli saying on FB it was ~$ 18.000, not sure which size as they offer two versions.
Ttnicksocal
Member
Called them and they are doing a preorder sale for the 5 gallon version and its $15K..... Claimed they are recovering over 99% of their alcohol back.
