Is it my Ph?

[VerdantGreen]

suberin

it does influence the amount of nutrients taken up by roots, but different plant species have more or less of it in their roots ( i suspect cannabis has less )
most plants wouldnt have needed to evolve to block salts - so plants such as mangroves that grow in salt water will have much more suberin because they need it to keep out the salt.

importantly, suberin only influences the apoplastic pathways, and afaik, nutrients are also transorted through the plant by the symplastic pathways (basically through the cell walls)

also not all roots contain suberin - it tends to be the thicker older roots that have more suberin and younger ones much less - which would explain why it is easier to burn seedlings than bigger plants.

to say that you cant overfeed and burn plants just because of suberin is highly theoretical and would fly in the face of many people's observations - not just stoners.

im no expert though and would be interested to hear more about it - but im pretty sure suberin isnt the be all and end all of plants taking up nutrients.

VG

 

[blwd67]

Thank you for taking the time to explain things, VG. Not just in this thread, but everywhere.

 

[G.A.66]

im sorry i was in a hurry this morning to get to work. and i meant no offence to anyone about the stoner forum thing...hell i own one to...lol

ya there is alot to learn still on suberin as it wasnt discovered till recntly. and iuve never bernt using hot fpood. as long as i can keep the ph in chekc ive been able to feed at 3k ppm to seedlings with absolutly no issues...yes it is a waste of food as most goes out the bottom and is hard to conTrol ph
i see most here sayin ph isnt imprtant...,maybe this is why ypu burn and i dont. ph is number one. not just for the food mix but also what microbes we use...micRObes effect the ph in the medium and they do so differently from day to night. as they eat and poop they give off either ph up or down depending ion day or night...all sorta part of the C.E.C.


and i cant be handing out very expensive research. there is alot to suberin and ive only scratched the surface so far here...but food wont burn. been at this for years,. and yes it is new thinking so most dont get it yet
ill fetch some info and make a post in the right ereas for this. not trying to seem a know it all either by saying i work for a nute co. i want to expose alot of bull shit the others tell us.


block salts????...our food is a salt. either attaches to a salt molecule or a carbon for organic.
also when a bottle makes a claim to be omri or organic...and omri is the lowest standard of testing...anyone could get it...maybe even miracle grow...lol
and all they need is 1 item in it to get this label...nothing organic about that. lots wont do it then they have to make public their secret recipes also...then there is natural organic and organic. some process to the nutrient will make it no longer organic also

 

[Learningfirst]

And Zendo is correct.......if you followed what was done by others before then you should not have any problems with PH.


D.S. Toker. MD--------There are a lot of people in this very forum who are proof of that.

Zendo and Me make 2

BTW.........I never check PH. I have not in years........and my plants SUCK

I am so impressed about this PH and organics issue. What a sweet deal. I am a noob & have decided to go organic. I made my own mix and recently whipped up a batch of aerated tea - hehe; I got creative there but it seems to have worked out ok. The PH blew my mind though. I still check and with the acidity I couldn't help myself so I added some base. Can't hurt right?

Anyway - good posts.

Peace.

 

[VerdantGreen]

im sorry i was in a hurry this morning to get to work. and i meant no offence to anyone about the stoner forum thing...hell i own one to...lol

ya there is alot to learn still on suberin as it wasnt discovered till recntly. and iuve never bernt using hot fpood. as long as i can keep the ph in chekc ive been able to feed at 3k ppm to seedlings with absolutly no issues...yes it is a waste of food as most goes out the bottom and is hard to conTrol ph
i see most here sayin ph isnt imprtant...,maybe this is why ypu burn and i dont. ph is number one. not just for the food mix but also what microbes we use...micRObes effect the ph in the medium and they do so differently from day to night. as they eat and poop they give off either ph up or down depending ion day or night...all sorta part of the C.E.C.


and i cant be handing out very expensive research. there is alot to suberin and ive only scratched the surface so far here...but food wont burn. been at this for years,. and yes it is new thinking so most dont get it yet
ill fetch some info and make a post in the right ereas for this. not trying to seem a know it all either by saying i work for a nute co. i want to expose alot of bull shit the others tell us.


block salts????...our food is a salt. either attaches to a salt molecule or a carbon for organic.
also when a bottle makes a claim to be omri or organic...and omri is the lowest standard of testing...anyone could get it...maybe even miracle grow...lol
and all they need is 1 item in it to get this label...nothing organic about that. lots wont do it then they have to make public their secret recipes also...then there is natural organic and organic. some process to the nutrient will make it no longer organic also

i look forward to hearing more about it, you dont have to give us the 'expensive research' you can just link to the abstracts and then we can buy it if we want. but i hope you arent just expecting us to take your word for it.
the reason why mangroves would want to block salt is that they grow in saltwater swamps and of course they need to have a mechanism (like high suberin levels) to avoid losing water by simple diffusion from low salt levels inside the plant to high salt levels in the swamp.
the same thing can happen with all plants. if the salt (yes including nutrients) levels are higher in the medium than in the plant, the plants will lose water by diffusion - and as they lose water the concentration of ions inside the plant will rise - perhaps that is what causes nute burn?

anyway im sure you will address all these issues when you explain it to us

also, 3k ppm is still only 0.3% ion concentration. if nutes CANT burn why arent you going much higher???

VG

 

[G.A.66]

because as i said..its a waste. she will only intake what she needs to do her duty. and leave the rest and is usualy why our ph in the medium drops. so its a waste of food. i am not recomedning to add whatever amounts of food. all im getting at is its not the actual food doing the burning...its all the others factors that happen because of this over feeding...or not running enough our bottom each time.
lots of my stuff realy may not be called research..its just my journaling on hitting heavy or light with foods and what happens in medium. and why i get and when i get tip burns,.

now im not using ph up or down as an adjuster. ive gone and tried a diff solution now and is working better to hold nutes up...especialy my organics. im needing way less to buffer this way. im workin this now in my journal...when i do update it. i have more time on weekends to be on here and help...if i can

i fond the ph in organics even harder to control as they break down the ec rises and ph drops. just went through this with my new food. i need to back way off on the mix now. trying to make my own recipe for this new 1 part organic nute we have out

 

[CheifnBud2]

I cant post a pic because i cant afford a camera. Sorry to not include that fact earlier LOL!.

Im almost sure the PH is too low because i have a hot organics soil mix called eb stone potting soil.

I top fed some lime to them and nothing happend, im thinking about testing the PH with soil test kit and adjusting it accordingly.

 

[Lorenzo]

yo OP, pH adjust the fox farm grow big solution to the proper range (6 - 7) before feeding. grow big/tiger bloom are not organic and are too acidic when mixed with RO in my experience. good luck.

now back to the learning

 

[Microbeman]

Gee, I see we never got educated by professor G.A 66 and here it is a month and a half later(?). What a pity. I was looking forward to hearing how science had advanced our understanding for the need to manipulate pH for organic soil growing.

 

[MrFista]

I think chasing pH is a waste of time as in adjusting and checking endlessly. But I also think pH has it's place in gardening.

I like to check pH of soil plots just so I know what I am starting with.

If it is on the low end lime goes in or I go collect some seafood and add the ground shells when we've finished eating. This is an enjoyable way to spend the day 'gardening'. Ideally I could put blueberries or other plants in lower pH conditions but sometimes I want to manipulate the soil in a certain direction especially when the blueberries already have a home. If pH is on the high side I add woody compost and try get more fungi working for me.

I like to know where my water source pH is at, but that's more for the aquaculture than gardening, though if the water was bad to start with, I'd be trying to fix it somehow.

As soil systems here get established they begin to look after themselves, but sometimes the soil is so shit I'm willing to try near anything, including long term pH manipulation using substrates.

Giving the soil a nudge in the right direction involves knowing in what direction you want to nudge it. No?

 

[Microbeman]

The lime is a waste of time (and the rain falls mainly on the plain) but it's nice that you recognize the way to alter pH is through the microbial population (ratio)

According to Elaine, it does not matter the pH. It matters the microbes in the rhyzoshere for nutrient uptake. I have not seen proof against this.

 

[Albertine]

If the ph doesn't matter then why bother putting dolomite into the peat based mix in the first place? When starting with a 'soil' that has a ph of 4.5, ????.

 

[MrFista]

Verdant - Water cannot enter via the apoplastic pathway it is prevented from doing so by the casparian strip. It can only enter the stele via symplastic routes.

G.A. 66?. Suberin discovered recently? I'm reading about suberin in an 18 year old textbook. Lots of entries on it. Raven - Biology of Plants 5th Edition.

Suberins role is to prevent water loss, but it is also in the casparian strip so it helps police the apoplastic pathway. Probably much more to it than that and I'm a keen learner. I think you're talking rubbish, but I've been wrong plenty of times so show us.

Give us the abstracts I got no problem with access.

 

[guest2012y]

If the ph doesn't matter then why bother putting dolomite into the peat based mix in the first place? When starting with a 'soil' that has a ph of 4.5, ????.

I think the reason for that is because peat is super acidic and lacks any significant microbial life to start out....until we build it up with foods and amendments which introduces more diverse ph balancing life forms with stuff to eat anyway. What these guys ^^^^say about that may be something over our heads....but maybe not out of our understanding if we pay attention....I dunno.

 

[MrFista]

How it applies it that ions (nutrients) go into the plant with the water. The central core of the root (stele) is policed by a waterproof barrier called a casparian strip (containing suberin which was brought up in previous posts). The apoplastic route water takes from root hair into the root traverses the apoplast (cell wall continuum) but this route is blocked from entry into the stele by the casparian strip. The symplastic route that water takes travels via plasmodesmata (junctions with marvellous functions) between cells and thus bypasses the casparian strip and enters vascular tissues to be taken up.

The concept of mediating suberin somehow seems counterintuitive to good gardening and prone to invite all sorts of plant problems with it. The casparian strip is an important part of a plants defense systems, it's not just a barrier for excess water, it prevents anything that hasn't been policed by plasmodesmata from getting into vascular tissues.

 

[Microbeman]

I think the reason for that is because peat is super acidic and lacks any significant microbial life to start out....

http://www.microbeorganics.com/#Canadian_Sphagnum_Peat

 

[Clackamas Coot]

http://www.microbeorganics.com/#Canadian_Sphagnum_Peat

Definitely read MM's link about Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss vs. Alaska Magic (aka Alaska Humus, Denali Gold, etc.)

A few months ago I was traveling 170 miles (round trip) to buy Alaska Humus from EarthFort in Corvallis which has a direct business relationship with Soil Foodweb - they're even in the same office suite.

I was using the Alaska Humus product in lieu of thermal compost and/or EWC - at quite a hefty price, i.e. $24.00 per c.f.

OTOH - Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss is $12.50 for 3.8 c.f. bales and contains a very active microbial life.

Using this product vs. organic coir gave me a lighter (loamy?) soil structure. The last cycle has this as a base (50% peat, 25% pumice and 25% homegrown EWC) and I couldn't be more pleased.

I think that many organic growers would do well to reconsider this specific peat moss type to use in their potting soil mixes.

Just an opinion.

CC

 

[guest2012y]

Quote: "I think that many organic growers would do well to reconsider this specific peat moss type to use in their potting soil mixes."

'Nuff said after seeing that. I've had such bad peat experiences I'm still cautious to just jump back on train...but that specific Alaskan product is quite interesting....I said,"Whoa" out loud after seeing all them critters buggin' around.
Don't some brands steam sterilize the peat as well?.....sunshine,etc.???