well that's a darn interesting read, thanks op for putting it up. i wonder how the extra ca thing would apply in a coco garden?
Interveiw With Agricola
- Thread starter Montana
- Start date
Read much?
This thread is not even about the book but the interview. It could be that the book is great but the interview is filled with conjecture and inaccuracies.
Plants are genetically programed to re-produce themselves. And that is that.
The fruit or the flower is just the carrier for the seeds. The entire grow cycle is just a reproductive cycle that we interrupt when we harvest the crop for consumption.
The myth is that somehow sugars formed within the plant during the grow cycle are sweeter or better tasting when the plant is grown 100% organically. Yet, when compared, the carbon atoms et al in those sugars are 100% identical to sugars in fruits/flowers grown conventionally. These plant produced sugars only come in one form. Whether the plant is grown organically or not makes no difference to the pre-programed production of sugars or the reproductive cycle. The plant only knows how to do or make what the plant knows how to do or make. Giving the plant different nutrient sources will not alter the pre-programed growing cycle.
In my experience, the resulting taste differences (if any) are easily explained and have more to do with marketing and economics then growing. Just like organic milk.
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c-ray
fair enough, that has not been my experience at all but we all have different degrees of sensitivity.. so I am curious how does industrially grown stack up against organically grown when it comes to vitamins, flavonoids and essential oils?
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c-ray
well I am no super hero like yourselves but I did indeed read the book a couple times and have used the info to the benefit of the plants that I cultivate, something like 100+ different strains I have run in the same soil mix.. not only that but I grew a veggie garden the past 2 years integrating the same info and have been equally impressed by how well the plants did there and how nice the seeds those plants made are... I am thoroughly satisfied with where it has taken me, it is not the be all and end all but for your average joe like myself it adds another layer of understanding.. not really sure why you would oppose something you have not experienced first hand yourself, seems like horse and buggy thinking to me
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c-ray
depends on the CEC of your coco and do you add perlite? its pretty easy to figure out the recommended range once you know the CEC
C-Ray
Again, I have not stated a thing in opposition to what is written in the book you have. I've not even seen it. My comments have been confined to the topic of discussion; the supposed interview. Read much?
~ Super Hero
Again, I have not stated a thing in opposition to what is written in the book you have. I've not even seen it. My comments have been confined to the topic of discussion; the supposed interview. Read much?
~ Super Hero
If you grow healthy plants with any method, they would be the same.
I don't grow organically for a living much but I have. I do for my hobby just to have fun.
Crazy as it sounds, we just bought a ranch with 20 acres of run down ugly certified organic lemon trees. They were scheduled for the bulldozer after harvest (last month). While our other ranches were picking 800 to 1200 field boxes per acre of large beautiful lemons, this ranch picked 600 boxes per acre of very small ugly lemons. Yet the organically grown lemons returned over $35 per field box while the standard lemons returned $8 per field box. We decided to keep these "organic" lemons for another year to supply the folks at "Whole Foods" who ignorantly want to pay $3 for each small lemon. Money is money. LOL
I would challenge anyone to taste any difference in the lemons.
i havent tested this information but; i have read that cover cropping w/ clovers/legumes can be helpful in correcting a stand of trees in an organic orchard
are there existing cover crops in this stand? do you intend to perform a soil test? perhaps your trees may benefit from some amending? if it were our region, i would almost just apply oyster shell/dolo lime/gypsum and probably fish bone w/o testing -almost
are there existing cover crops in this stand? do you intend to perform a soil test? perhaps your trees may benefit from some amending? if it were our region, i would almost just apply oyster shell/dolo lime/gypsum and probably fish bone w/o testing -almost
My citrus does good in its own litter. The young trees are mulched with horse manure covered with grass clippings. The grass could count as fertilizer, with all the shit they use on it. By time they produce fruit in 3 years, it will be " organic" again.
The difference in organics is usually in the care given and the varities used. Less market appeal and more flavor. Grapes and lemons being an exception. The milk tastes better. Fruit in the store is tasteless. No complexity. Little to do with actual organics. At least not in the commercial definition. Health wise. I know I don't have to worry about some yet to be banned chemical.
In some cases, natural, beats out organic. Freerange chicken is healthier as far as disease and fat content. Organic eggs are pron to the same diseases as non organic eggs when raised in crowed conditions. I'm sure free range could be crowded as well.
The Cal/phospferous ratio has some interesting web articles well worth reading.
Too much p inhibits root secretions that promote fungal attachment creating a need for the plant to increase rooting. Hence you get more roots and think you're doing good while it's just more work for the the plant to reap the same benefits. The calcium keeps the p bound in equalibrium with the available p. As the available P is used, more is released.
The difference in organics is usually in the care given and the varities used. Less market appeal and more flavor. Grapes and lemons being an exception. The milk tastes better. Fruit in the store is tasteless. No complexity. Little to do with actual organics. At least not in the commercial definition. Health wise. I know I don't have to worry about some yet to be banned chemical.
In some cases, natural, beats out organic. Freerange chicken is healthier as far as disease and fat content. Organic eggs are pron to the same diseases as non organic eggs when raised in crowed conditions. I'm sure free range could be crowded as well.
The Cal/phospferous ratio has some interesting web articles well worth reading.
Too much p inhibits root secretions that promote fungal attachment creating a need for the plant to increase rooting. Hence you get more roots and think you're doing good while it's just more work for the the plant to reap the same benefits. The calcium keeps the p bound in equalibrium with the available p. As the available P is used, more is released.
no perlit just coco slabs with low dose canna coco a+b, enzymes as i reuse the slabs 4 or 5 times. also add some ec 0.2 cal green to every other tank fill during first 6 weeks of 12/12.
it would seem if i understood that right that an increased level of K (ca) would be helpful for more resistant plants and potentially better yields?
it would seem if i understood that right that an increased level of K (ca) would be helpful for more resistant plants and potentially better yields?
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c-ray
slabs eh.. well sounds like the calgreen is a buffer more or less.. sorry I am not a hydro guy but in my experience a 4:1 ratio of Ca to Mg works best in coco.. there is a product called lithovit (a superfine ground dolomite) that dissolves in water that you may want to experiment with, possibly in conjunction with some epsom salt
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c-ray
I am working my way through some of Albrecht's writings, pure gold:
http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010143albpap/010143idx.html
http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010143albpap/010143idx.html
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c-ray
Hey Grape, you need to hire me to come down and live in a trailer at your farm (Califoria right?) and help you produce primo organic. I work cheap and might be homeless soon. I was forced to sell my 100 acre farm and 11 acre lot (that was supposed to be kept for retirement) because I was working on an option to purchase deal with a group of farmers who turned out to not be what they said and backed out of the deal, even after I registered the option. Anyway the ramifications is the taxman (capital gains) is coming for me because they say it was not an active farm when I sold so I'll probably lose close to everything I worked my entire adult life for.
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AlexTrebek
Member
Come up to Canada, where all we harvest is snow.
grapeman grapeman grapeman
dont get me wrong
those studies are biased in that they represent organic ag as an industry such as its being implemented
truth is we need huge amounts of OM tied up in the soil to help get Co2 out of the atmosphere same if we apply loads of charcoal to tie up carbon
conventional ag has long been depleting soils worldwide of OM
in a closed loop farm far less energy is expended and it has been proven that organic is equal to or greater than conventional -the right kind of organic ag; if a farm barely meets the minimum criteria to be certified, its not the right kind of organic
living soil is leaps and bounds ahead of simply using organic approved ammendments
as for taste and quality; well my experience and others has been that it does taste better - i wish i could make an informed comment regarding whether it really is healthier
BUT; if people were doing their own farming utilizing principles of living soil combined w/ terra preta its quite arguable that they would be healthier because of their own physical inputs
not so much to argue just to make a counter-point
healthy planet/healthy people
dont get me wrong
those studies are biased in that they represent organic ag as an industry such as its being implemented
truth is we need huge amounts of OM tied up in the soil to help get Co2 out of the atmosphere same if we apply loads of charcoal to tie up carbon
conventional ag has long been depleting soils worldwide of OM
in a closed loop farm far less energy is expended and it has been proven that organic is equal to or greater than conventional -the right kind of organic ag; if a farm barely meets the minimum criteria to be certified, its not the right kind of organic
living soil is leaps and bounds ahead of simply using organic approved ammendments
as for taste and quality; well my experience and others has been that it does taste better - i wish i could make an informed comment regarding whether it really is healthier
BUT; if people were doing their own farming utilizing principles of living soil combined w/ terra preta its quite arguable that they would be healthier because of their own physical inputs
not so much to argue just to make a counter-point
healthy planet/healthy people
no matter how much anyone tells me a home grown tomato is the same as some fucking ore sol tomato has got to be joking. the one taste of nothing while the other is sweet and delicious. i grant that it might be hard to tell organic lemons from conventional grown lemons, but with things like straw berries, tomatoes, apples it really seems to make a difference to the taste. but i have to admit some store bought organics might as well be mass agro when it comes to the taste comparison.
I recently went to a fancy restaurant where i was served greens that had obviously been grown in the sun, not a hothouse.
The taste was overwhelming to my fall/winter-numbed palate.
This brings me to the subject of foraging and nutrition. Foraged food is usually coming from wild systems that have their soil intact. And there are many who believe the plants you find in the wild contain more flavor and nutrition than cultivated versions.
So I kind of see a progression:
conventional >> organic >> natural farming >> wild harvesting.
