ICMAG Administration endorses The Regulate, Control and Tax Cannabis Act of 2010

[Kalicokitty]

2) non-personal use growers and dealers that don't want to see their livelihoods disappear when they can no longer sell $70 eighths on the black market (ding ding!), or
).

It's number two.
You know, I would actually have a little respect for these guys if they would just come out and say it, instead of hiding behind lame, transparent excuses like
"my friends like to carry a little over an OZ, and I don't want them going to jail."
Or
"This law is unfair to 18-20 year olds"

I am just waiting for the day when I log in and see

GanjaAl
Banned


For repeated spamming of alarmist, prohibitionist, CRAP

 

[GanjaAL]

It's number two.
You know, I would actually have a little respect for these guys if they would just come out and say it, instead of hiding behind lame, transparent excuses like
"my friends like to carry a little over an OZ, and I don't want them going to jail."
Or
"This law is unfair to 18-20 year olds"

I am just waiting for the day when I log in and see

GanjaAl
Banned


For repeated spamming of alarmist, prohibitionist, CRAP

I can not wait until the day we are all able to grow and smoke as we see fit.

 

[Kalicokitty]

I can not wait until the day we are all able to grow and smoke as we see fit.

Neither can I.
But bro, you're putting in like 8 plus hours a day banging out the same weak arguments that have been shredded multiple times now, don't you think you should give it a rest?

I guess saying I want to see you banned was a little harsh.
But I would defiantly like to see you relax with all this nonsense.

If you want to reveal your real reasons for not wanting 19 passed, I'm sure many here would be happy to respectfully debate them with you.

If you're so driven for something better then 19, then shut off your PC, and get out in the real world and start working for it.
I mean really, what are you doing to further your cause besides your fulltime job of throwing up the same weak arguments over and over here at IC?

 

[someotherguy]

I can grow more than enough for me in 5x5. I just choose to use more. There is NO law against growing in my state. If you don't believe me head to the NV state forum on this site and check out the very few threads.

so, what you're sayin' is, you come into this thread
with all your negative bullshit, and it's ALL bullshit,
and you're from Nevada?

tell me again how Prop 19, or even 215 has any
direct effect on you?

Now knowing what I know now... yes I would have voted for it as it is to relieve the pain for the sick. Right now... I am not against rec smoking whatsoever as I see it as a preventive medicine in a sense... Prop 19 is a law I do not approve of and nore will I ever. However along with others that are saying no... we will be pushing for Jack Herer's bill. Much better than prop 19.

Jack's bill isn't on the ballot moron, so 'pushing for
Jack's bill' is tantamount to pissing in the wind, fool!

So how are you going to win hard core conservitive states and the bible belt states???? Not with prop 19. MMJ laws are the only hope for that side of the fense... and insults and personal attacks are not helping either. Makes me push even harder for NO votes as all I have is time until my back gets fixed. If these people on here represent the yes vote... I want nothing to do with it and it may in fact mess it up for the rest of us.

Hope that helps.

this is California law, not the bible belt states, they
will come on board, as it were, once they see the
writing on the wall and produce bills of their own,
you know, like the other MMJ states have done.

it's incredible such simple shit has to be so constantly
explained, which leads me to believe all you are is a commercial
fuck only concerned with protecting his income stream!

SOG

 

[BiG H3rB Tr3E]

AHAHAH these cats is not commercial. they are kicking 1 MAYBE 2 lights and selling extra shit they cant smoke... i meean we seen hydros weak ass garden. its obvious hes growing to sell but he aint slangin packs. hes slinging gs 1/8s and 1/4s AND SINCE HES NOT EVEN IN CA (so why the fuck does it even matter to you if 19 happends????) hes prolly raping his buddies wit 70 1/8s of mediocre....

ganja al??? this clown couldnt cultivate a thought if he was instructed by albert einstein himself. id love to see him post whatever garbage hes growing and selling.... i KNOW we could all use a good laff about now!!!!!


im over it. im not going to sit and argue with some bold faced shit spewers. you dont want to tell us why your REALLY against it??? dont fuggin matter, we KNOW through your pathetic arguments.

at least hydro makes an attempt to reason in speculation... ganja is just too fucking stupid to even form a cognitive thought in that pea sized pile of shit he calls a brain...

 

[Anti]

It does not matter what you think sir... counties, towns and cities will do what they want and limit as they see fit. Just tonight my local town banned any and all sales and dispensories. Prop19 gives them that power and it will not be up to debate when prop19 passes.

Lucky that the prop DOES allow for you to either:

#1) Buy it somewhere where it IS allowed and then transport it to where you live, even if you pass through cities that don't allow it.

#2) Grow your own legally in a 5x5.

I know which option I'm for. (#2)

Also I am not sure if a town like this will likely agree to increasing grow space for the home grower.

Probably won't. So when your lease comes up, move to one of the more permissive cities if sales are that important to you.

 

[Hydrosun]

I have a job. I pay income taxes. Then I purchase the things I need to grow with what is left. Then I don't sell any of my produce.

If you don't wanna play ball legally you still have two choices:

#1) Get a job.

#2) Keep doing your illegit thing.

You are a lier. You have already posted that you grow LBs. And as we stated LBs are more than enough for solo consumption. So either you sell your excess and are a criminal, or you give you excess away and are a criminal. It is too far fetched that you grow more than you use personally and then throw it all away.

So since you don't admit to selling any. I can only assume that you pay ZERO taxes on what you trade or smoke.

I don't believe that 100% or your garden is consumed by you. You are growing MJ, even if 19 passes you'll still be breaking federal schedule 1 laws and federal tax laws just as you are doing now.

 

[someotherguy]

You are a lier. You have already posted that you grow LBs. And as we stated LBs are more than enough for solo consumption. So either you sell your excess and are a criminal, or you give you excess away and are a criminal. It is too far fetched that you grow more than you use personally and then throw it all away.

So since you don't admit to selling any. I can only assume that you pay ZERO taxes on what you trade or smoke.

I don't believe that 100% or your garden is consumed by you. You are growing MJ, even if 19 passes you'll still be breaking federal schedule 1 laws and federal tax laws just as you are doing now.

nobody gives a rats ass what you believe as you have
already proven yourself to be nothing more than a nitwit.

not to mention the fact that you live in Nevada!

SOG

 

[Hydrosun]

AHAHAH these cats is not commercial. they are kicking 1 MAYBE 2 lights and selling extra shit they cant smoke... i meean we seen hydros weak ass garden. its obvious hes growing to sell but he aint slangin packs. hes slinging gs 1/8s and 1/4s AND SINCE HES NOT EVEN IN CA (so why the fuck does it even matter to you if 19 happends????) hes prolly raping his buddies wit 70 1/8s of mediocre....

im over it. im not going to sit and argue with some bold faced shit spewers. you dont want to tell us why your REALLY against it??? dont fuggin matter, we KNOW through your pathetic arguments.

at least hydro makes an attempt to reason in speculation...

My shit is better than your. My plants look way better than yours. My Purple Kush would destroy your best strain in a heads up grow or smoke test any day.

You aren't arguing, you are avoiding direct questions: You claim that you want people to be legal. So I ask you are you paying federal income taxes on 100% of your revenue? My guess is no, and you are making ZERO attempt at being legal in that way.

If I am right and you are happy being a federal tax avoider and violating federal schedule one drug laws, why are you so law and order with Prop 19.

So do you pay taxes on 100% of the revenue?

 

[Hydrosun]

VTA,

Your point about safety and the home grower is lost on me. Can't the guy cause a problem with electrical setting up his 25sq' as easily as a 200sq' garden?

We are on the same page, a guy in his home is not Richard Lee's 100,000sq' operation.

So the guy at home with a garden should vote for this because it will keep him illegal and increase the PIGS funding?

So the guy at home should get a med card (BEST SOLUTION ALL AROUND), but what if he is JJ Scorpio and doesn't want to see a doc or share his medical information.

I agree that CA med laws will protect most home growers, but there is absolutely no reason to validate more restrictions on the little guy.

The hobby gardener is the friend of the recreational smoker, and you said this bill was supposed to help the rec guy. Or is it just supposed to help the rec guy find MACRO shit weed?

 

[Anti]

You are a lier. You have already posted that you grow LBs.

No. I'm not a lier or a liar. I'm straight up. Here's proof:

I don't currently grow pounds. Never claimed I did. (Go back and quote me saying I did!) I currently grow about an ounce a week, perpetually. That keeps me in personal and allows me to share with my friends when I see them. I don't deliver weed to people, I don't sell it. Nobody who knows me (besides my girl) knows that I grow. All of them think I have a great hookup that they're constantly asking me to hook them up with. I buy the occasional 1/8th from a long-term connect so that he will simply believe I'm getting the rest from someone else.

Now. Pass Prop19... I will STOP growing in my four square feet (two feet of flowering, two feet of veg/clone) and start growing in my twenty five square feet! I'm giddy with anticipation, honestly.

Just because I have shown that it is POSSIBLE to grow pounds in a 5x5 does not mean that I am currently doing so.

I am FULLY SUPPLYING MY OWN NEEDS in four square feet and I smoke more than anybody I know!!! I also smoke those people out on a regular basis and I still have plenty! In four square feet. If you don't believe it, check my sig.

Who's the liar?

And as we stated LBs are more than enough for solo consumption. So either you sell your excess and are a criminal, or you give you excess away and are a criminal.

Currently, if I were growing pounds... the growing of pounds would make me a criminal. The possession of pounds would make me a criminal. Gifting would make me a criminal. Selling would make me a criminal.

If this passes... growing pounds would be legal. Possessing (at home) pounds would be legal. GIFTING (up to an ounce at a time) would be legal. Selling it would be legal if I lived in a city that decided to allow the sale and if I obtained proper permits and licensing and followed regulations.

It is too far fetched that you grow more than you use personally and then throw it all away.

I never said anything of the kind. I'm still scratching my head about the part where I said I grew pounds.

I have said any knucklehead COULD grow pounds in a 5x5. I know this because I am currently producing 4-5 ounces per month in two square feet of flowering. (under 252w of CFL for fucks sake!)

So since you don't admit to selling any. I can only assume that you pay ZERO taxes on what you trade or smoke.

Of course I don't. Nobody pays taxes on what they trade or smoke. And if Prop 19 passes, nobody will STILL pay taxes on what they trade or smoke. Only on what they SELL LEGALLY!

I don't believe that 100% or your garden is consumed by you.

My grow cabinet is 4ft wide and 2 ft deep (total dimensions). That's 8 square feet. But I'm only actually GROWING in two 17"x17" segments of the cabinet. The rest of the cab is a DRYING chamber. My ENTIRE OPERATION is within 8 square feet! And I am *NOT* consuming it alone. That's the point! I'm a heavy, daily smoker and there is still PLENTY to share with my friends...even though I only harvest 1 ounce a week!

You are growing MJ, even if 19 passes you'll still be breaking federal schedule 1 laws and federal tax laws just as you are doing now.

Yes. You're right. It'll still be a federal crime. But I'm going to keep my head down, keep growing for PERSONAL and GIFT and TRADE and NOT SELLING IT. So there will be no profits that I will have to launder and no reason for the FED to take notice of me.

 

[Hydrosun]

nobody gives a rats ass what you believe as you have
already proven yourself to be nothing more than a nitwit.

not to mention the fact that you live in Nevada!

SOG

You must or you wouldn't quote me with out being able to refute me. I was born in CA graduated university from CA visit friends in CA often.

The only thing I have proven is I can stand up to bullies like you with words and debate, not histrionics.

Please elaborate on "you have already proven yourself to be nothing more than a nitwit."

Just because a low brain functioning individual thinks something is proven, is not a signal to the rest of the universe to cease debate.

So do you grow any ganja or just hurl conclusiary statements with no backup?

 

[miltonchitlin]

Peron change of heart on prop 19

Peron change of heart on prop 19

He absolutely had to do this if he was to save face at all.

Steve Kubby reports that Dennis Peron has decided to end his campaign against Proposition 19. Does that means he is on board? Change of heart? Will be teaching at Oaksterdam again? All or any of these would be great news. It is time to join together and push 19 over the edge to victory in November.

A message from Steve Kubby:

Friends,

I’ve asked Dennis Peron to cease his criticism of Prop. 19 and he has agreed. Dennis gave me permission to make a public announcement, but I have also asked him to draft his own announcement as well.

This should not minimize the validity and importance of the issues raised by Dennis, but should be viewed as a recognition by Dennis that it is time to build unity within our cannabis community. I respect Dennis even more than ever, for taking the high road, as we go into the final three months of this campaign.

Finally, I would like to again acknowledge Dennis Peron for his extraordinary leadership and vision. Indeed, I do not believemedical marijuana would be legal in any state, if it were not for his leadership and courage.

Those who might want to personally thank Dennis can reach him at <castrocastle@gmail.com>.

 

[Hydrosun]

Anti,

Pages back you talked about getting 1lb a month perpetual. You also helped sketch out some specs for a 25sq' garden. In those posts you talked about getting more than a lb if I remember correctly.

If you don't now and never did sell any of your stuff that is cool and if you do or did sell that is cool too.

However trade (which you admit to) is income and revenue therefore you are legally required to include 100% of the revenue value in your income tax figure and you may take ZERO deductions (see. IRC 280e).

I think you are correct that after this passes people will still violate federal schedule 1 drug laws and federal income tax laws.

With or without 19 we are all still criminals.




Because both of these laws will continue to be ignored I find it very perplexing that the majority of the crowd is arguing "Because we wouldn't be criminals anymore!"

 

[nomaad]

I'm missing something here: your town just banned mmj sales and dispensories, something that I assume they have the right to do, and you are somehow applying this to Prop19?

As I see it, the issue is that 19 explicitly gives municipalities the right to ordain where ganja can be sold, giving such ordinances the force of law.

It is my understanding of this particular argument that under 215, there is no such power granted, leaving bans and moratoria open for court challenge.

And since there is no explicit provision in 215 regarding such issues, will safe local access to MMJ stand up in "dry" counties?

***


I unsubbed from this thread because its a terrible discussion for an intelligent person trying to make up their mind about this Prop.

I am studying the issue as it develops and as more and more quality analysis and criticism becomes available. At the same time, you fellas can keep on fighting about whose propaganda trumps whose, arguing the same 3 emotional points that the hearts and minds of all the politically retarded masses of California will be swayed by.

Closer to November, I'll be writing a report what I have learned and how it has affected my decision. Because I will actually be considering both sides of the issue with as little emotional attachment to an outcome as possible, I'm sure that I'll actually learn something... a goal that would be unattainable if I were to rely on discussions like the one taking place here.

 

[someotherguy]

You must or you wouldn't quote me with out being able to refute me. I was born in CA graduated university from CA visit friends in CA often.

The only thing I have proven is I can stand up to bullies like you with words and debate, not histrionics.

Please elaborate on "you have already proven yourself to be nothing more than a nitwit."

Just because a low brain functioning individual thinks something is proven, is not a signal to the rest of the universe to cease debate.

So do you grow any ganja or just hurl conclusiary statements with no backup?

you continue to prove what a nitwit you are by
continuing to spew the same tired bullshit, all
of which has been thoroughly debunked by others
in this thread many, many times.

and my ability to grow, or even yours is irrelevant
to this discussion except to say i'm a micro-grower
already growing more than i can smoke in a couple
cabinets that measure LESS than 5x5 so i'd be glad
to be able to not have to hide any more.

it's people like me who would be freed by Prop 19
and nothing you have so repeatedly said can alter
the facts!

btw, it is very obvious i am not alone in my opinion
of you, despite your high opinion of yourself.

SOG

 

[Anti]

Here's how we can easily get 2 lbs from 25 square feet all at once, no perp. No SCROG, no training, no anything:

I use plant containers that are 2.5"x2.5"x10" (l,w,h)

These are the ones I use:

I use the MT2510s.

In order to get 2 lbs from 25 square feet, you'd need to average 36.29g per square foot, which is 1.28oz per square foot.

I can fit between 16-23 MT2510s in a square foot, depending on the shape of that square foot. (Can fit about 16 in 12"x12", can fit about 23" in 5"x28")

Fully packed as tight as I can get them together and NOT defoliated, trained, LSTed, topped or any other method, I have averaged at least 4.1g per plant. \

Here's a picture of some plants that when fully dried, weighed AT LEAST 4g:


When not fully packed together, I have achieved between 7-9g per plant.


Here's an example of a 7-9g plant:



But lets stick with 4g. I'm low balling myself just to prove a point.

at 4 grams a plant, and 10 plants per square foot, you would be getting 40g per square foot. (keep in mind that you could actually fit more than TWICE that in a square foot and still achieve 4g per plant. I'm totally lowballing this to make it as legit as possible!)

So 907.18474g (2 lbs) / 40g per square foot = 22.6796185 square feet needed to grow 2 lbs all at once.


So you've still got 2.32 square feet left over for some bonzai moms! Or you could run the whole system perpetually! You could use this to clone and veg! (I clone and veg in 2.01 sq feet, so don't tell me it can't be done.)

All math in this example assumes you will be flowering under 125w per square foot of coiled fluorescent bulbs! (I'd be willing to bet you'd get even BETTER numbers under a couple of 1000w CMH or HPS bulbs.)

Also, keep in mind that these plants are less than 23" tall from floor to ceiling, including soil. If you wanted to grow taller plants (with HID to improve penetration) you could easily double your yields in the same space, in the same containers.

There you have it my friends. Simple math. You can grow little runty plants like the ones pictured above and harvest your 2 lbs every 2-3 months, or you could simply do a perpetual harvest of about 10 plants a week and then you only need to clone 10 plants a week in order to keep it going!

Of course, if you prefer to grow larger plants, you could always give 25 plants their own square foot to grow in and each plant would only need to yield 1.28oz (36.29g).

You could also grow 5 plants and give each 5 square feet to grow in. You would need to harvest 6.4oz per plant.

And there are probably endless other ways you could make it happen. But I'm using real world numbers (with pics) and personal experience.

 

[Hydrosun]

SOG,

We've already concluded that prop 19 is great for smokers and micro growers.

You may think you can legally trade your excess weed or give it away, but many on this tread think that right is not granted to you in prop 19.

I will list my complaints and you list the debunking.

(1) Prop 19 increases criminal penalties on some MJ offenses.

(2) Prop 19 uses tax and permit money to ENFORCE MJ ordances

(3) Prop 19 uses 21 years of age but CA VOTERS can enlist and serve at 18 also they can buy cigs and start killing themselves legally at 18.

(4) Prop 19 teaches kids that MJ is too evil to see your parents smoke, but it is OK for them to take you to a restaurant and drink beer in front of you and smoke a cig on the ride home.

(5) Prop 19 DOES NOTHING for those who have been loving this plant for years, they will still be criminals or subject to patch work prohibition at best.

(6) Prop 19 abuses MJ smokers through unfair taxation. There is no other product in the state I know of that has such broad taxing language (see earlier quote of allowed taxes) and such liberal uses arbitrary power for localities (creating the patch work prohibition).

(7) Prop 19 does not recognize everyones rights equally in multi family living situations.

(8) Don't know if this is even possible via referendum but Prop 19 did not reschedule MJ off of schedule 1 as Oregon did.

These are the reasons I would vote NO if I were voting in another CA election. Everyone gets to make up their own mind. I am just expressing my views. If others think less of me because of hearing my views or the fact that I express my views, I bid them read my sig. (Prop 19 is the tranquility of servitude.)

 

[Anti]

Anti,

Pages back you talked about getting 1lb a month perpetual.

I don't recall saying that I was getting 1lb per month perpetual. If I did, it was a typo, and please, someone point it out so I can go back and fix it. I currently get about 4-5oz per month perpetual.

You also helped sketch out some specs for a 25sq' garden. In those posts you talked about getting more than a lb if I remember correctly.

I was using my current numbers and extrapolating them to a larger footprint. I would use the same methods (or better) so I would not expect to see my per plant weights dropping. If anything, access to better lighting, less fear about getting busted, would allow me to significantly out perform my current numbers.

If you don't now and never did sell any of your stuff that is cool and if you do or did sell that is cool too.

I don't now, never did sell and I doubt I will do any selling if it is legalized. I'll let you know when/if I change my mind on this.

However trade (which you admit to) is income and revenue therefore you are legally required to include 100% of the revenue value in your income tax figure and you may take ZERO deductions (see. IRC 280e).

Trade is something I would do in the future if I had someone to trade with. I don't have close friendships with any other growers and nobody knows that I grow. I do SHARE with my friends... but I don't get anything back from them (except occasionally I get to smoke some of their shitty commercial stuff when they want to share with me.)

I think you are correct that after this passes people will still violate federal schedule 1 drug laws and federal income tax laws. With or without 19 we are all still criminals.
Because both of these laws will continue to be ignored I find it very perplexing that the majority of the crowd is arguing "Because we wouldn't be criminals anymore!"

It's usually the local cops that are busting small time growers. It's generally not the DEA knocking down doors to find an operation like mine. (doubt the locals would bother now, which is why I keep my operation micro.)

If it is passed it will be legal in cali, but not federally. But I think that will be "legal enough" that I will feel comfortable growing my 25sq ft in the privacy and secrecy of my own home and not running around telling everyone in the neighborhood what I have in my spare bedroom.

If the feds decide to move on ANYONE, it will likely be on R. Lee. And I believe he intends for this to happen, so that he can spend some money battling them in court. If he wins, it will be a good day for ALL of us.

 

[Anti]

(1) Prop 19 increases criminal penalties on some MJ offenses.

True. But such language is probably helping to keep the naysayers quiet. Protect the children!

(2) Prop 19 uses tax and permit money to ENFORCE MJ ordances

Also true, in theory. I remember years back I was in a state where they were trying to pass a legalized gambling proposition. All the tax dollars earned from gambling were going to be earmarked for the school system, and was going to improve education for the state!

Once it passed, what happened was that they did indeed use the new tax revenues for education... but they also cut the education budget by exactly the amount that was now coming in. So the money from gambling still went to schools... but the money that HAD been going to schools until then was reappropriated for other needs. So the schools didn't benefit at all. Things stayed the same.

I have a feeling this wording is in there so that people will not say "What about all the money we'll have to spend enforcing these new laws?" I could be wrong. But common sense (and years of watching politics) leads me to believe I'm not.

(3) Prop 19 uses 21 years of age but CA VOTERS can enlist and serve at 18 also they can buy cigs and start killing themselves legally at 18.

Yeah.. but they can't drink a beer while they're enlisting and killing themselves at 18. We better bring back alcohol prohibition, right?

(4) Prop 19 teaches kids that MJ is too evil to see your parents smoke, but it is OK for them to take you to a restaurant and drink beer in front of you and smoke a cig on the ride home.

I am 100% with you on this. It's fucked up. But how many responsible parents will WANT to blow smoke at their two year olds? This is to placate the "What about the children?" people and allow the bill to pass. Only really stupid people are going to get in trouble with this. I mean, how many people are smoking around their children NOW? How many are getting prosecuted? What would change?

Right now, it's illegal to smoke in your own home even if you are BARREN and never had children! How is this making things WORSE?

(5) Prop 19 DOES NOTHING for those who have been loving this plant for years, they will still be criminals or subject to patch work prohibition at best.

I have been loving this plant for about 15 years and this Prop does many, many things for me, and for the average marijuana consumer. Doesn't do much for the street dealers, but then, the street dealers don't do much for me. (Why do you think I started growing my own?)

(6) Prop 19 abuses MJ smokers through unfair taxation. There is no other product in the state I know of that has such broad taxing language (see earlier quote of allowed taxes) and such liberal uses arbitrary power for localities (creating the patch work prohibition).

It only taxes the buying and selling of MJ. Anyone can grow or possess, same as they do now if they are MMJ compliant. If you're too lazy to grow, pay the tax. Not really that much of an imposition, is it? Are you fighting sales tax at Sears, too?

(7) Prop 19 does not recognize everyones rights equally in multi family living situations.

How much are people in multi-family living situations currently allowed to grow? 0? After this, the multifamily living situation will be allowed to grow at least 25sq feet. That's infinitely more than 0.

Is it kinda lame? Yes? Do I wish it was better? Yes. Will I take it as is as opposed to 0? HELLS YES!

(8) Don't know if this is even possible via referendum but Prop 19 did not reschedule MJ off of schedule 1 as Oregon did.

Prop 19 is written in such a way as not to FORCE the state of California to subvert federal laws, but which ALLOWS individual cities to do so if they so wish. Masterstroke, in my opinion.