I need your input on a good soil blend..(so many to pick from)

[jaykush]

someone gave me a box of this back in early spring, works real good. no trichoderma, based in yucca and humics. not sure how much it costs. there website is pretty lame though, i just sprinkle some powder on the roots at transplanting, or mix into seedling soil mixes so they get inoculated early on.

http://www.nature-technologies.com/Mycorrhizae.html

 

[Microbeman]

I've gotten sidetracked looking up all kinds of interesting things about various ectmycorrhiza species. Perhaps someone else can find the previous threads on mycorrhiza; especially the one from 2nd try.

In the interim these are the two AM endomycorrhizal species which are mycorrhizal with cannabis;

Glomus intraradices
Glomus mosseae

One can use these or alternatively use Trichoderma. I don't think the two together is a good mix as there is a proponderance of evidence showing that Trichoderma fungus dissolves the hyphal wall of endomycorrhizal if it establishes first. If you look at the ingredients list from Biovam you see that there are far more trichoderma spores than endomycorrhizal.

Otherwise, I recommend the use of Trichoderma harzianum (strain 22) (activated) when a fungal pathogen is observed.

Also there is a bacteria listed in Biovam which does not exist;
Athrobacter Glovirormis ; I assume they meant to say
Arthrobacter globiformis (?)

 

[NSPB]

Sorry if you misunderstand my intent. Because you are at a point of marketing (I think) I assumed you had some research done.

Well, research yes. Sat down in a multi-million dollar laboratory and identified each individual strain and isolated its particular effect on all aspects of the cannabis life cycle...nope, can't say I have.

Not really sure what I am marketing, honestly. I simply stated I used the product. It works as well as other products that make the same claims (Great White, Rooters, Plant Success, Guardian, Subculture M). I figured such knowledge would be to the benefit of others purchasing more expensive products...not to mention, I WAS ASKED.

But nspb how do you cultivate your bene bacteria? Do you also add nematodes to this soil mix of yours?
-ngen.

Beyond that, I don't really know what to tell you.

But I am all ears for your last post, which was quite interesting and more than likely will result in me being lost in piles of books and hundreds of websites all making claims of what they think is happening...but this again, is learning...and what this site is supposed to be about.

After all, the only way I know to "test" anything is in a real world environment and situation...for those of you who have access to great methods, I'm always ready to learn!!



NSPB

 

[Microbeman]

Not really sure what I am marketing, honestly. I simply stated I used the product.

The exact mix is soon to be a retail product in several medical states. If it fails to be a instant success due to whatever random reason, (it will grow flawless cannabis) the first thing I will do is post the EXACT formula at ICmag for ALL to replicate.

I'm lost. I thought retailing was marketing. I really don't know what THE EXCITMENT is about with the upper case shouting but I'll just slowly back away.

 

[NSPB]

Endomycorrhizae (approx. 40 - 100 spores per c.c.)
Ectomycorrhizae (approx. 100 - 500 spores per c.c.)
Added Biological Ingredients

• Athrobacter Globiformis, Azotobacter Chrococcum, Azotobacter Vinelandii, Bacillius Subtillis, Pseudomonas Alcaligenes, Pseudomonas Fluorescens, Pseudomonas Pseudoalcaligenes, and Pseudomonas Putida. Estimated minimum viable cells per cc: 20,000.
• Trichoderma Harzianum and Trichoderma Koningii, estimated minimum cells per cc: 10,000.

This was taken as a copy and paste directly from the T & J site...and is obviously from a previous post I made. The following link is to the Biovam product label, from which the above posted was copied.

http://www.tandjenterprises.com/biovam_product_label.htm

No where does it have anything misspelled...nor do they claim to have some bacteria that does not exist.

Also there is a bacteria listed in Biovam which does not exist;
Athrobacter Glovirormis ; I assume they meant to say
Arthrobacter globiformis (?)

So, I'm not really sure where you found the error on the site; perhaps you could do the nice guy thing and send the webmaster a brief email and let him know...

 

[NSPB]

I'm lost. I thought retailing was marketing. I really don't know what THE EXCITMENT is about with the upper case shouting but I'll just slowly back away.

Perhaps my confusion in the matter is you were quiet actively discussing the product Biovam, when out of know where made a comment about me marketing...which any rational person would assume the comment was in regards to the active conversation.

Now that I realize, you were talking about one thing in post #60:

Sorry if you misunderstand my intent. Because you are at a point of marketing (I think) I assumed you had some research done.

The various species of endomycorrhizal have been discussed on here often. I'll try to track down a thread.

while you were actually being snide about something that was said MUCH earlier in this thread by me in post #32. Which is odd, because post #32 actually has nothing to do with myco's which is what was being discussed nearly 30 posts later.

I am really not sure what it is I have done to gain your interest, and as much as I find your behavior to be bordering on trite, I see no reason to let you poke and prod me, then limp away as if I am the one making an issue with you...

If you have something you wish to talk to me about...if I have in some way offended you by attempting to share with this community the knowledge I have collected over my many years as a gardener, then let's take this out of the main forums and discuss it in a few private messages back and forth. I definitely have a few things I could say, but I am trying to keep what appears to be personal garbage out of this thread.

I've read your posts and found you to be a very helpful and respectable member of this site. Why it is you feel the need to tear me down is just beyond me...

Best wishes and feel free to contact me now that I've made it past 50 posts, I'm always willing to listen to another person's point of view, in the hopes you will give me some insight on my own person, which in turn, can only improve my character.



NSPB

 

[Microbeman]

I will attempt in the next little while to post some salient information regarding the use of fungal spores. It is a large topic with a lot of citations, so I've been putting it off while I do more pressing work.

I (& others) have history of trying to pass on tips concerning incorrect information to T&J ent. but have been ignored. (e.g. the gross video I mentioned earlier)

I had the impression that you were using the Biovam product in your mix. If you believe I was being 'snide,' that is coming from your perspective alone. The only time I was being remotely antagonistic was when I said 'hello...'. I have directed nothing personal towards you and I have nothing against you. I do encourage you to do some serious research if you are going to sell a product. It is not that expensive to send a root sample to a lab to find if it is infected by endomycorrhiza or Thrichoderma or not at all.

There is some speculation that ectomycorrhiza enhances nutrient uptake in annuals. This is a fascinating field of study.

I feel compelled sometimes to let people know that a lot of products on the market can be either counter-productive or a waste of money. For example, the inclusion of Trichoderma in massive amounts in endomycorrhizal inoculants. As stated there is evidence these two types 'can oppose' each other. Coot also pointed this out through his statement in this thread, albeit by listing the species.

No where does it have anything misspelled...nor do they claim to have some bacteria that does not exist.

PS. I did not say this.

 

[NSPB]

Right on! I'm perfectly willing to admit that I was getting the wrong impression of you and your intent. I think that is obvious!

I really appreciate you taking the time to make sure we are on the same page, so to speak. I do use the T & J beneficial bacs in the mix I currently make, yes. You are under the correct impression. As I said, it really wasn't a matter of sitting down in front of microscope, but rather many years worth of growing, observing, and paying very close attention to the plants themselves, the root structure at different stages of growth, resistance to bugs both on the plant and in the soil (intentional infections)...all sorts of environmental fluctuations such as drought, over watering, high/low temps or humidity, etc.

All these sorts of things relate to the different presumed benefits of myco products. When doing side by side grows (meaning multiple rooms, with different conditions or a different set of circumstances given to each room), one room as a control, meaning no additional myco at all, and then many identically healthy clones of the same strain, labeled and planted side by side using different myco products. (the ones I named earlier) I can simply say after several of such tests and trial grows, that there IS an increased benefit to the growth of the plant and to the quality of the product produced when using such products. However, I did not see any sort of drastic difference, if any at all, within the plants growing with different myco products added to the soil. I also didn't notice any significant root explosion by those that were simply "dipped" in the myco products and then planted vs. a soil in which a myco product had been added and allowed to compost for a couple of weeks. I'd honestly go as far to say that the growth in an amended composted soil seemed to provide more consistent and even growth through out the life cycle of the plant.

As I said, have I done testing, yes. Have I gone to some great lengths to prove to myself that what I am doing will, without question, help other produce much better medicine? Absolutely. I have no reason not to trust what I have observed and no reason not to share with others what I feel is VERY useful information. I will never claim to know it all. In fact, I've learned in life, the more I begin to think I have it all figured out, is the second I am quickly reminded of how I actually know nothing at all. (this entirety of this thread can attest to that) There will always be someone out there who has more knowledge and at such a depth that will leave me flabbergasted and scratching my head. If I honestly felt any part of this fertilizer mix still had me scratching my head, I'd not be offering it to others. This is not to say there isn't room for improvement and adjustments and tweaks...when I subjected myself to this vast knowledge base here at ICm, I was certain there would be those here that could provide me with more insight and knowledge than I myself can profess to have...in fact, I looked forward to it.
I'm not one to sit here and say I've got the next best thing since sliced bread. There are many things I do and promote the use of that are somewhat uncommon in this industry currently (dry molasses, azomite, leonardite) but that is simply because I KNOW the benefits that can be gained when using such things in conjunction with a fully balanced, properly amended and composted soil.

My only goal here...for the record...in regards to the fertilizer line, was to create a one step program after which the grower only needs to add water to achieve their goal of producing some of the very best medicine possible. This product is geared towards those that don't have the time or the physical ability to stand over multiple products measuring each one out a cup at a time or 5ml at a time and then balancing the pH and storing all the different bags / bottles...etc. It is geared towards the old timers who have been doing it a certain way for 30 years and its always worked for them so why change...so they can begin producing better medicine without the hassle and stress of trying to re-learn an entire industry. It is being made, not to take over the world, but rather to help those who want and need such a product, to make their own personal journey of producing better medicine a much easier reality. Not to mention, new growers that are just starting their very first garden and want an easy solution to producing their own organic medicine...

At the end of the day, it is all about me doing everything in my power, to the very best of my ability, to see that patients of all types have ways and options available to them that will encourage them and assist them in the production of fully organic, top quality medicines.

Success, if there be any, will only be the result of having done things the right way...



NSPB

 

[NSPB]

No where does it have anything misspelled...nor do they claim to have some bacteria that does not exist.

PS. I did not say this.

My comment was in reference to this post:

Also there is a bacteria listed in Biovam which does not exist;
Athrobacter Glovirormis ; I assume they meant to say
Arthrobacter globiformis (?)

I corrected you, only under the concept that you were being rather contrite and had already expressed a general dislike for T & J in general...and at this point were really just going to great lengths to not only make them look like they offered an inferior / misleading product...but also a sideways attempt at making me look the same, simply because I use one of their products. (which we have cleared up...)

I'm still not sure where you found the quoted error on their site. I know in my current bag of Biovam, everything listed, really exists.



NSPB

 

[Microbeman]

Athrobacter Glovirormis does not exist but I wasn't claiming T&J know this. (to the absolute best of my knowledge) It is the first bacteria(?) on the list you copied and pasted.

Lots of people have, like you declared improvement in cannabis growth after use of a similar fungal/bacterial inoculant. I am just questioning whether the benefit may actually come from only the Trichoderma species or even one or two bacterium. If I were researching this, I would want to know. That you notice better results from the composted soil is an indication it is the Trichoderma and/or bacteria at work because they do not require a root system to grow. Sooo the point I made earlier is around the fact that to purchase just Thrichoderma is cheap, cheap, cheap and all of the bacteria listed live in soil and compost and can be multiplied through feeding and/or compost teas.

Observation can be a tricky thing. I've learned the hard way that what I've thought was responsible for an attribute has turned out not to be.

You may wish to compare another product which has more bacteria in it some of which are mycorrhizal helper bacteria. According to the manufacturer $59 buys enough to do 2 acres. It is ICT 123 Compost Tea. I've never used it. I'll try to attach a PDF in another post.

 

[Microbeman]

Here it is

 

[Microbeman]

I think I just thought of a good example. You may know that there are companies selling carbohydrates for plants. You may also know that a vast majority of this product is molasses. Therefore if I were going to use this, I'd be better off just buying molasses. Thus it is with the fungal/bacterial inoculants.

BTW did you answer whether the dry molasses you use is beet or cane derived?

 

[Clackamas Coot]

BTW did you answer whether the dry molasses you use is beet or cane derived?

MM

The beet sugar molasses costs about $1.00 per gallon at the wholesale level (assuming that you're buying 55-gallon barrels).

This molasses is spent - big time. Any and all value other than simple sugars have been removed. It's original purpose was/is to make crappy straw/hay palatable to livestock. Same with the dried molasses product - it's very popular because it's easier to measure out and give to the factory farmed animals.

Cane molasses is far more expensive and has a value - like making rum (especially), baking, etc.

If there is a dried molasses product out there which uses cane molasses it has to be one of the best kept secrets in agriculture/ranching.

Check out this list of the various types of 'molasses' available from this company - Glorybee Foods out of Eugene, Oregon.

HTH

CC

 

[Microbeman]

Hey Coot,

That is as I figured but if there is a dried black strap cane product I'd be interested in testing it.

 

[NSPB]

Athrobacter Glovirormis

I've never seen this listed on any of the things I have looked at in association with Biovam. Whether typo or not...I've never SEEN this mistake. All links I have provided, list what you state was the correct species / spelling. The retail product has no mistakes in spelling and all things listed on it, exist...as stated earlier.

Once again, still not sure where it is you say you found the "mistake"...

BTW did you answer whether the dry molasses you use is beet or cane derived?

If there is a dried molasses product out there which uses cane molasses it has to be one of the best kept secrets in agriculture/ranching.
CC

Hey Coot,

That is as I figured but if there is a dried black strap cane product I'd be interested in testing it.

Not so hard to believe...

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=189263



NSPB

 

[Microbeman]

Once again, still not sure where it is you say you found the "mistake"...

My apologies. It is on their brochure on their webpage.

BIO-VAM

BioVam is a Mycorrhizal root enhancer and is registered with the CA. State Department of Agriculture.

Active Ingredients: Endomycorrhizae (approx. 40-100 spores per cc). Ectomycorrhizae (approx 100-500 spores per cc). Athrobacter Glovirormis, Azotobacter Chrococcum, Azobobacter Vinelandii, Bacillius Subtillis, Pseudomonas Alcaligenes, Pseudomonas Putida. Estimated minimum viable cells per cc 20,000. Trichoderma Harzianum and Trichoderma Koningii, estimated minimum cells per cc: 10,000.

http://www.tandjenterprises.com/biovam-quarter-cup-label.htm

I do see that in other areas they have used the correct words.

 

[Microbeman]

It appears the CK brand is made from cane. I could not find that info with the two other brands. I'd want to check out the effects of the soy base used and know the brix value of the molasses. I only use black strap molasses myself in compost tea or recommend it for liquid application to soil which is in rough shape and/or toxic.

Oh ya. I've also used it mixed with a vermicompost slurry topdressed.

I've never used soy horticulturally nor any other grains (except to feed fungi and nematodes in compost).

Does anyone know if there is a 100% black strap molasses dried product?

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Does anyone know if there is a 100% black strap molasses dried product?

MM

It is available to the food manufacturing sector - in particular the bread & pastry industries. Much of this product is Kosher and/or Halal Certified.

BakeMark is a large supplier of baking ingredients and they service Portland out of their Seattle, Washington facility. I believe that they also have distribution centers in Canada.

Then there's Malt Products Corporation that carries a lot of dried sweeting agents - including dried honey. I had to buy a couple of lbs. last year to make up a concoction for my Yellow Lab that suffers from hip problems caused by arthritis. I know that they also carry a dried cane sugar molasses.

Then there's another 'molasses' that you may find interesting to test and experiment with - date molasses which is usually available at stores that carry Middle East food staples. Given the nutritional value of dates in general, I would think that the 'molasses' made from this would carry much of the same levels since this molasses is not a by-product of a food manufacturing process like cane molasses and beet molasses.

CC

EDIT: Amazon.com carries date molasses for cheap money.

 

[Microbeman]

Thanks CC!!

And NS?? Just so you don't think I'm imagining things;

http://www.tandjenterprises.com/tan...ycorrhiza_Fungi,_Bacteria_&_Trichoderma_Fungi

http://www.tandjenterprises.com/biovam-one-pint-label.htm

Active Ingredients: Endomycorrhizae (approx. 40-100 spores per cc). Ectomycorrhizae (approx 100-500 spores per cc). Athrobacter Glovirormis, Azotobacter Chrococcum, Azobobacter Vinelandii, Bacillius Subtillis, Pseudomonas Alcaligenes, Pseudomonas Putida. Estimated minimum viable cells per cc 20,000. Trichoderma Harzianum and Trichoderma Koningii, estimated minimum cells per cc: 10,000.

http://www.tandjenterprises.com/biovam-one-quart-label.htm

Active Ingredients: Endomycorrhizae (approx. 40-100 spores per cc). Ectomycorrhizae (approx 100-500 spores per cc). Athrobacter Glovirormis, Azotobacter Chrococcum, Azobobacter Vinelandii, Bacillius Subtillis, Pseudomonas Alcaligenes, Pseudomonas Putida. Estimated minimum viable cells per cc 20,000. Trichoderma Harzianum and Trichoderma Koningii, estimated minimum cells per cc: 10,000.
http://www.tandjenterprises.com/biovam-one-gallon-label.htm

Active Ingredients: Endomycorrhizae (approx. 40-100 spores per cc). Ectomycorrhizae (approx 100-500 spores per cc). Athrobacter Glovirormis, Azotobacter Chrococcum, Azobobacter Vinelandii, Bacillius Subtillis, Pseudomonas Alcaligenes, Pseudomonas Putida. Estimated minimum viable cells per cc 20,000. Trichoderma Harzianum and Trichoderma Koningii, estimated minimum cells per cc: 10,000.

http://www.tandjenterprises.com/biovam-three-gallon-label.htm

Active Ingredients: Endomycorrhizae (approx. 40-100 spores per cc). Ectomycorrhizae (approx 100-500 spores per cc). Athrobacter Glovirormis, Azotobacter Chrococcum, Azobobacter Vinelandii, Bacillius Subtillis, Pseudomonas Alcaligenes, Pseudomonas Putida. Estimated minimum viable cells per cc 20,000. Trichoderma Harzianum and Trichoderma Koningii, estimated minimum cells per cc: 10,000.

http://www.tandjenterprises.com/biovam-five-gallon-label.htm

Active Ingredients: Endomycorrhizae (approx. 40-100 spores per cc). Ectomycorrhizae (approx 100-500 spores per cc). Athrobacter Glovirormis, Azotobacter Chrococcum, Azobobacter Vinelandii, Bacillius Subtillis, Pseudomonas Alcaligenes, Pseudomonas Putida. Estimated minimum viable cells per cc 20,000. Trichoderma Harzianum and Trichoderma Koningii, estimated minimum cells per cc: 10,000.

 

[NSPB]

Hahaha...right on Micro.

I just had never looked at some of the larger product labels I suppose, and on the products I receive, it is all spelled correctly. I never had any reason to suspect anything was wrong. I'm pretty certain that is just a webmasters typo that has gone over looked for way too long...

For the record, I'm going to do some much more serious research on micro-herds...

Soybean in the soil, really just acts as a protein that over time breaks down into a usable nitrogen. It can however make soils just a bit acidic if used to heavily. But even more important than that, it is a protein, that initially feeds the micros and helps them remain super active.

Honestly, the benefit I see in such a thing...is for re-vegging a plant without the need to re-pot it or place it in a new batch of soil...or no need to start feeding it a vegetative formula again. By the time a plant is finishing and you realize you'll need to re-veg, the soybean particles should be breaking down...



NSPB