Hybrids found by the police in the Parvati valley!

[Rinse]

So it's the cartels that this finger-wagging doomsday naysaying is aimed at?
Do you think I believe for one single second that there's no obvious benefit from import genetics?
Are you about to tell me that you only grow indigenous breeds? If so what date is your cut-off after which it's an 'import', and how did you decide that date?



Landraces can never gain anything positive from introgression?
Just because that incoming pollen has many unsuitable traits, nothing good can come of it?
How do you think plants evolved then?

This is a ridiculous conversation.

I've made it quite clear why I think it's pointless to worry and shameful to wag your fingers about other peoples' grows.

Lol, there is no finger wagging doomsday naysaying...All Im saying is it would be a shame for certain qualities of old strains to be lost, wether this is a potential problem in Parvati I dont know, but in Jamaica for example it has been. Luckily though the original strains survive in the mountains.
I know your gonna say Jamaican strains were imported anyway,
but they are old landraces from India and Africa, not something that has not seen sunlight for the past 25 years.

 

[Kalbhairav]

Do you think I believe for one single second that there's no obvious benefit from import genetics?
Are you about to tell me that you only grow indigenous breeds? If so what date is your cut-off after which it's an 'import', and how did you decide that date?

Nunsacred,

It's quite obvious that Cannabis originated from somewhere and that it was taken to various parts of the world over a quite wide space of time. After however many generations it adapts to the environment and takes on specific character traits in line with that particular area. How do you think that the world of cannabis has come up with so many different varieties? It has been natures work that has decided the the characters of these different genotypes that we cross and play around with.

How do you think that Sam the Skunkman and DJ Short came up with their original offerings??? It was through the selection of a wide gene pool of landrace genetics. And why did they do that? Because only land race gentics hold a massive comprehensive array of different flavours and levels of potency. Just look at some of the conversations between Tom Hill and GMT to decide what this diversity in Landrace populations actually means! Modern hybrids are made for certain traits or pure profit, not the continuation of the plant!

Because many modern hybrids are bred indoors (with the exception of a few), there is the real danger of certain traits taking over, Whether this is a bland flavour or the autoflower trait etc etc.. It could come to the forefront within a few generations ruining a whole area. There are massive implications to a whole environment, not just the loss of cannabis landrace of that specific area

Here's a nice quote from GMT that points out the crus of the matter.

advancement and preservation are diff goals. to preserve you dont make selections, selections force line drifting, and if you are good, selections later direct the drift.

Modern Hybrids are made for the purpose of growing indoors in that specific environment; for smoke, medicine etc. Adding them to large landrace genepools though might not have any affect at all unless you added the same genes generation after generation. There is soooo much indigenous pollen floating around that the little bit of pollen from the hybrid would be like a drop in the ocean. BUT, if those drops in the ocean continue then it could mean a change. Who's to know what the greater implications could be (although there are plenty of examples where humans have totally fucked up a plant species). One thing is for sure. Quality in these areas has gone down.

Landraces can never gain anything positive from introgression?
Just because that incoming pollen has many unsuitable traits, nothing good can come of it?
How do you think plants evolved then?

Plants evolve through changes in the environment.. When Cannabis was spread through out the globe it was nature first that changed the plant, not humans! Distinct landrace varieties exist because of nature and the very slow process of evolution through nature. Humans playing with Cannabis is absolutely incredulous when it is compared with that of pure natural selection. Breeding on the scale of 1:1 or even 1:20 can never really bring about the kind of diversity needed to continue a species. This has been seen in humans and plants...

I want to give you an example of another plant/tree where this is a problem. Believe it or not there are many apple varieties which are extinct and many more that are in danger because of using one or two varieties that have better traits and then crossing them to everything else... The gene pool then becomes bland and you are left with only a couple of dull phenotypical expressions etc.

Lol, there is no finger wagging doomsday naysaying...All Im saying is it would be a shame for certain qualities of old strains to be lost, wether this is a potential problem in Parvati I dont know, but in Jamaica for example it has been. Luckily though the original strains survive in the mountains.
I know your gonna say Jamaican strains were imported anyway,
but they are old landraces from India and Africa, not something that has not seen sunlight for the past 25 years.

Totally agree.

 

[Storm Shadow]

Landrace genetics from Iran are the most Diverse Ive ever seen in my life... Land of the Hashishin's

Old World is where it all started ...

 

[mriko]

Landrace genetics from Iran are the most Diverse Ive ever seen in my life... Land of the Hashishin's

Old World is where it all started ...

Yup, with Caucasus & Caspian sea just nearby, a cradle of cannabis indeed !

Irie !

 

[Nunsacred]

?... Luckily though the original strains survive in the mountains.

isn't this observation from Jamaica enough to show that what I'm saying is true?

Particularly as the Jamaican case was used as a doomsday example earlier in this thread by someone else.

Kalb, you speak a mixture of truth and confusion.
The apple family is alive and kicking.
The only apple strains lost were inbreds and the problem you outline is down to systematic replacement.
As you rightly point out it takes time and effort to destroy a landrace or species and frankly, the introduction of unsuitable hybrids is not going to be nearly enough to do that in Parvati, it would take systematic efforts there too, not a few generations in some of the fields.

The other question someone raised about how long it takes for imported influences to be overcome......
Well, considering that some of the first gen hybrid will still be wild type, no time at all!
I know that Mendelists don't agree with me on this but a significant proportion of "F1" turn out like one or other parental IME. The laws of inheritance state that they must have a load of both parents alleles but the reality is that some of them won't behave like it.

Many plants have evolved from interspecific hybrids (probably all of them) and so the notion that diversity springs from isolation is shortsighted at best.

I understand the point about preserving a unique niche but nature itself won't even do that forever and the only way to fight that is to make a fascist of yourself with rules about what belongs where, and flamethrowers, and 'forcing continents to stay apart' and who knows what else?

I don't want to repeat myself anymore here.
Suffice to say what I already have said.

The simplest way of summarising my views is this :
Anyone criticising anyone else's grow style is making themself busy and their justification for doing so is not valid outside a controlled population.

 

[mexcurandero420]

isn't this observation from Jamaica enough to show that what I'm saying is true?

Particularly as the Jamaican case was used as a doomsday example earlier in this thread by someone else.

No, since you can't say by how many the strain is survived and what is most important you have to grow 1000s to keep the traits, otherwise it will be gone forever.
What is offered today as Jamaican in the shops is a weak substitute from what it was in the past, so yeah Jamaica is a worse case scenario.

Keep on growing

 

[landraceslover]

Nunsacred!
I really don't know where your anger come from
but you seems to have yourself fucked up, a or
some, naturals genepools.
You are so angry, you seems to culpabilisate.
No one want to say you have, or people have to grow
this or that.
We just say we have to preserve, by the way of seeds,
the landrace diversity present in the world.
We don't want to stoll the strains of this place but we can
take seeds for preservation and cross.
That is the point of view. That's all.
Peace my brother, just discussions.

 

[Adze]

Part of this argument is like saying: All dogs came from wolves, so if we crossbreed every breed of dog into mutts, then it doesn’t matter because they’re all just wolves anyway.

 

[quitelost]

I don't think any botanist would recommend importing domesticated inbred lines into a area that has prehistoric wild/domesticated landrace lines. This could have unintended effects on the local environment and damage a gene pool thousands of years in the making. Western cannabis is almost only a drug bred to fuck you up while these lines have been bred/used for thousands of years for many uses and have different genetics.

I don't think that its all good that people switch crops for economic reasons outside of their control . In many african countries they have switched to flower production from food production due to economic reasons outside of their control with serious consequences in food security, should I not talk about this because everyone can grow what they want? What about the fact that hybrids need more ferts? That in the conditions there, maybe fungicides would be needed? What about the strains used for food production? What about the meds? What about the small growers that have their crops pollinated by large commercial grows destroying hundreds if not thousands of years of genetic heritage? What about the culture? Cannabis is part of indian culture and not skunk but traditional cannabis, it's different.

 

[Nunsacred]

FWIW I don't like modern superskunk much either.
If I had a nice outdoor seed run of my fave old sativa cross line and someone else's Frisian Dew influence male plants seeded up my plants I'd be pissed off and probably ranting about western shit polluting my crop.

But the moment I start doing that about someone else's grow, is the moment I should like to be euthanised, quickly.

 

[Kalbhairav]

But the moment I start doing that about someone else's grow, is the moment I should like to be euthanised, quickly.

I get where your coming from...

I don't think anyone can/could influence those locals who are in control of the crops in Parvati etc. But as has been pointed out there are others from around the world hiring land in the Himalayas to grow their own..

As we have seen the world over, there comes a time when the questions of profit etc conflict with those of conservation. One example being the palm oil crops that are taking over the rainforests. Of course this example isn't at all the same as Parvati but it may become similar as locals move further afield to grow their wares. It's not just about the cannabis gene pool but about the whole environment up there.

I worked for some years with the locals on various waste management programs etc. Even though there are rangers governing this now protected land deforestation is still a big problem. Wildlife in the lower Himalayas has lessened. Most of you know about the dying out of Tigers in the area. What you might not know is that there also used to be a wild Horse that is now extinct!!

Off topic a bit but it is all tied up together...

If there is an origin for cannabis then more likely than not it came from India/Himalayas.. If cannabis has it's birth place in this part of the world then it would be a pity if this genepool was lost (although this isn't proven).

 

[huligun]

Every piece of produce that you eat in this day in age, especially if commercial is the result of hybridization. Hybridization is an important factor in the world population doubling out of control for the past 600 years. They didn't have rice in America or corn and potatoes or Tobacco in Europe in pre-Colombian times. The didn't have ganja in Americas before Colombus.

 

[Kalbhairav]

Every piece of produce that you eat in this day in age, especially if commercial is the result of hybridization. Hybridization is an important factor in the world population doubling out of control for the past 600 years. They didn't have rice in America or corn and potatoes or Tobacco in Europe in pre-Colombian times. The didn't have ganja in Americas before Colombus.

Sure, but those were plants/seeds taken from the country of origin and introduced to a new environment. If cannabis did originate from somewhere then the plants were taken and grown where they adapted to the environment. Cannabis, because of its multifaceted uses, was popular in ancient times. In language we can trace this.. In Africa for example it is called in some areas (something like) 'the Indian plant'. It is for sure a species that has origins somewhere.

If a plant is brought to another country were it never existed previously then that isn't hybridisation!

The problem here is bringing western/indoor hybrid forms back into localised and naturally occurring cannabis populations the world over.

Australia and New Zealand has had this happen where plants/animals (sometimes of similar species) have been brought into the country and run rampant and destroyed whole other plant forms/eco systems. (here's the Wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasive_species_in_New_Zealand)

 

[Gert Lush]

So you think the Parvati people don't have the right to grow hybrids from abroad because they are obliged to protect a unique strain which is so poorly adapted to its locale that it will be ousted by the foreign strain, recessive to it, and not segregating out again?

If you feel so strongly about the Parvati heirloom then I think you should grow it and focus on that instead of pointing fingers at others and claiming doomsday.

Nunsacred makes an excellent point.

Furthermore, I'd be more interested in listening to all the bleating if it came from people who only grow difficult, long-flowering, stretchy (ever grown a Parvati?), low yielding excellent head-stash. But so very few do that, don't they? I wonder why?

Everyone wants to improve their yields, flo time, etc. But heaven forfend that those lowly peasants should want the same, eh? Their purpose on the planet is to preserve pure landrace genetics so that we never grow them

So, even ignoring the two blinking obvious points that -
a) local strains are well adapted and crappy indoor hybrids don't have much of a chance in the wild (which is why you only see them nearer civilization, where they can be tended)
b) if no-one moved ganja around the world to see what could be improved we'd never even have this forum to bleat on
- I don't see why we need to take the bait on what is clearly just a bit of no-brained prohibitionist propaganda from a local rag with added curry. FFS.

I make this comment as someone who is EXTREMELY keen on landrace preservation, who has a fair old original landrace seed collection, and who grows lots of really difficult strains, sometimes at quite a big economic cost to myself, simply because I think it's worth it idealistically.

And you know what? If I lived in Parvati or any other exotic location, I would definitely try to improve the local weed. Wouldn't you?

Now if there are any disagreements as to what "improvement" is, that's a whole different kettle of fish.

 

[swayambunath]

Very well said, Gert.

 

[mexcurandero420]

Improving yield is most of the time changing your cultivation method and not always by breeding.

Keep on growing

 

[swayambunath]

It's funny, I was just re-reading through the posts, and saw a comparison with apples being made. Where I live there are a lot of endangered apple and pear breeds. The funny thing is that all these ancient apple trees are clones, as apples and pears do not breed true and if grown from seed can throw out any kind of strange phenotype.
Given how much effort seems to go into stablizing cannabis strains, and how many commercially available seeds will show a number of different phenotypes, I don't think we need to worry too much about the negative effects of hybridization.
Ironically it's when governments finally get over themselves and allow the cultivation of hemp for fiber, fuel, oil or pharmaceutical purposes, so long crusaded for by a certain type of (confused) cannabis enthusiast, that real, permanently damaging GM genes will be released into the genepool! Ooops!

 

[Gert Lush]

You also have to remember that the varieties of the Kullu Valley, those that are up in the high fields, are planted by farmers as goat feed, simply because nothing else will grow there. They are usually very, very seeded, quite jungli (wild), and sometimes the farmer might rub a bit of chars off them (a highly-labour intensive job) or lease them to some hippy for the same purpose, if he's lucky enough to find one, before letting the goats loose on them.

I'd looove to see someone try to grow WW or C99 or OGK or other pampered indoor breed in those conditions!

The story is absurd. First, I am sure hippies (and maybe even locals - why not?) have been trying their luck, perhaps bringing in Afghan varieties, from way back in the 60s (50yrs ago, yeh?). Not much seems to have come of that. I suspect the local conditions are too tough for anything not truly adapted.

Secondly, you don't really, really, think that the local (practically barefoot) cops know the first thing about cannabis hybrids, do you? Seriously? That they are concerned about hybrid pollution? That they even give a shit? No, they are simply repeating a scare story that they were told to, perhaps for a small payment. Notice that chief local cop "DR" LOL Vinod Komar Dhawan, says:
- "These plants have been genetically improved, they have more seeds than other hemp plants that grow in wild". Clearly an excellent understanding of the issues involved.

The Twitter gossip mentality that is so rife on the net these days does not really allow for much rational thinking, does it?

 

[LungCooking]

I've been visiting India since 1990 and have lived with locals for a number of years from some of the lower regions of the Himalayas.

Just a reminder of the vast space we're talking about here.. Parvati and Malana are a very small patch of a big area. They are renown like some areas of Mexico, Columbia etc because of a time past where one could pick up great resin. The article in the first post, as has been pointed out numerous times already in this thread, isn't news to us. Even if the gene profile has changed, and unless more hybrids are introduced constantly, then the plant will always adapt to the environment after time.

I've tried many of the different hashes on offer in India and I can say that Parvati and the offerings from that region weren't the best for me. There are regions which still have totally natural and unspoilt landrace populations. Areas that are untouched by the western hybrids we all seem so fond of...

It is a shame with the earth becoming global that these things happen but we probably have to except it as being a product of our future. Diverse culture has already started slipping away and we will all be left with an earth where everything is the same and boring! Natural differences in many things have already been lost in many countries and the environment has been ruined. This is just another example......

couldnt agree more...

 

[Gypsy Nirvana]

Yeah.....I too have traveled into very remote areas where farmers are tending cannabis crops, and they are very keen to try any new cannabis genetics in their environment, actively asking you if you can supply them with the 'good' seed..

As stated in the post above, just envisage how big of an area we are talking about here,(MASSIVE)...and the fact that the weather can be quite extreme, and water scarce. Any recently introduced cannabis genetics would have to be hardy to survive there.

Only a very select group of varieties might ever be ideal for that particular environment, and they would have to be tested properly first.

Most new genetic material that might be brought in probably doesn't even make it thru the first season due to it not being suitable/acclimatized to that location anyway..

Of course the commercial farmer is always looking for new genetics that could improve his/her harvest, to maximize profits. Its the same for any crop, anywhere, world-wide.