How do you choose you breeding males?

[PoweredByLove]

when i say "open pollination" in the context of this thread i simply mean multiple males to your chosen females...whether you chose the males or not.

i would assume you chose em since this is "how do you choose males" thread. but still.

each grain of pollen combines with each pistil in x^nth possible combinations...this is each single grain of pollen and each single pistil. who knows whats in those grains of pollen that didn't fertilize anything?

 

[Dropped Cat]

Here's one:

The only male that came from a few seeds gifted me of some
old White Rhino.

I wish I had the resources to flower and test large numbers,
but I make do with what I have.

I grow micro,and keep two males in veg for stud, why not, lol

 

[englishrick]

Anyone tried this?


Barneys Farm - Acapulco Gold


Acapulco Gold
Cannabis Cup: Sativa Cup Winner 2010.
One of the most important strains ever. Acapulco Gold is a benchmark of Sativa genetics. Grows beautifully tall with firm colas sparkling with gold and red trichomes.
The intense fruit cocktail of flavors pack a strong sensation that lingers.

Acapulco Gold is sativa dominant, offering a long lasting high that balances upbeat effects with body-relaxing, stress reducing calmness.offering a long lasting high that balances upbeat effects with body-relaxing,stress reducing calmness.

 

[Homebrewer]

Anyone tried this?

https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=69438&pictureid=1667412View Image
Barneys Farm - Acapulco Gold


Acapulco Gold
Cannabis Cup: Sativa Cup Winner 2010.
One of the most important strains ever. Acapulco Gold is a benchmark of Sativa genetics. Grows beautifully tall with firm colas sparkling with gold and red trichomes.
The intense fruit cocktail of flavors pack a strong sensation that lingers.

Acapulco Gold is sativa dominant, offering a long lasting high that balances upbeat effects with body-relaxing, stress reducing calmness.offering a long lasting high that balances upbeat effects with body-relaxing,stress reducing calmness.

I bought a bag in Amsterdam and it was my least favorite of the 'sativas' that I had purchased. The buzz was nice but it had a noticeable crash.

 

[englishrick]

^^^thats exactly what I was looking for,,,thanks man,,,you just saved me a job and 20e

 

[corky1968]

I did read a post by SamS that open pollination with a population size less than 2000 does NOT preserve genetic diversity, it changes the genetics of the variety..

Discuss!

That's why you need 10,000 males at least.

 

[MJPassion]

I did read a post by SamS that open pollination with a population size less than 2000 does NOT preserve genetic diversity, it changes the genetics of the variety..

Discuss!

That's why you need 10,000 males at least.

It's all bullshit & lies to make the hobby breeder feel inconvenienced, unable & at the seed sellers mercy for good genetics.

I've read comments that about 50 males & 50 females are needed by respected professionals as well.

 

[bigbadbiddy]

Depends on the strain as well.

If you work with a heavily IBL, you might as well do 10 & 10 and be done with it. Likely won't miss much if anything.

The more worked the line, the less phenos to be found, the lower the number of "required" males&females do to an open pollination and preservation.

I think the high numbers of 200 or 1000 or whatever is an ideal scenario in landrace type strains.

If you do 50 and 50 of a landrace line you might still miss SOME stuff but you likely would have MOST of it in there depending, as always, on the luck of the draw.


I agree with MJ here, it is likely inflated in order to make the work of "actual breeders" seem oh so complicated and unattainable by your average hobby grower/breeder.
Would numbers as large as possible be ideal? Yes, of course.
Are they necessary? Depending on the strain/line no or absolutely no. If it is a highly worked IBL it might even be a simple waste of resources.

 

[englishrick]

I meant to put that last post in another thread,,,,lol,,,weird,,

 

[bigbadbiddy]

Still works in the context somewhat

 

[englishrick]

It's all bullshit & lies to make the hobby breeder feel inconvenienced, unable & at the seed sellers mercy for good genetics.

I've read comments that about 50 males & 50 females are needed by respected professionals as well.

I don't think the population number argument is complete bullshit,,,

But I do think there is a balance,,,we need enough diversity,, ie " plant numbers" to maintain the genotype,,, so 1 round of maximum numbers is needed for backup purpose,,,then we need lower numbers in later lines to line breed and maintain traits with higher inbreeding coefficients,,,

Breeding comes in stages,,,the preservation stage "open pollination",, this is the first step,, it's meant to maximise your potentials!,,,then the line breeding stage "increasing inbreeding coefficients" this is when you develop your own expression of the genetics via inbreeding "full sib/ half sib etc",,,the last stage is increasing heterosis with outcrossing to parallel lines or totally new lines to make true F1 seed lots

Different stages need different numbers and different criteria for selection,,,

 

[corky1968]

I don't think the population number argument is complete bullshit,,,

But I do think there is a balance,,,we need enough diversity,, ie " plant numbers" to maintain the genotype,,, so 1 round of maximum numbers is needed for backup purpose,,,then we need lower numbers in later lines to line breed and maintain traits with higher inbreeding coefficients,,,

Breeding comes in stages,,,the preservation stage "open pollination",, this is the first step,, it's meant to maximise your potentials!,,,then the line breeding stage "increasing inbreeding coefficients" this is when you develop your own expression of the genetics via inbreeding "full sib/ half sib etc",,,the last stage is increasing heterosis with outcrossing to parallel lines or totally new lines to make true F1 seed lots

Different stages need different numbers and different criteria for selection,,,

How much heterosis do you think there is with feminized and S1 seeds?

I'm glad I don't buy those type of seeds. Even as freebies I don't want them.

 

[MJPassion]

I'm glad I don't buy those type of seeds. Even as freebies I don't want them.

Nothing wrong with fem seeds as long as they're properly made. Fem, S1 or otherwise.
The only thing they perpetuate is the imagination.

I used to be strongly against them until I came to an understanding of the science behind sex expression.

 

[englishrick]

Feminised seed breeding is basically the same as m/f seed breeding ,,,they just don't have the Y chromosome,,,let's not forget the Y chromosome used to be an x but it lost its leg due to evolution,,,,

Inbreeding lowers levels of heterosis,,inbreeding via selfing or full sib m/f mating is virtually indistinguishable from one another apart from selfing has a higher rate

Due to there being more genetic information in a XX x XX chromosome cross in apposition to an XX x XY chromosome cross,,, I'd say feminised outcrossing provides higher rates of heterosis than m/f style breeding,,

Just a thought,,

 

[Betterhaff]

this whole 2000+ plants thing is just making more work for yourself imho.

you take a female and one male and mate them...you get millions of different combinations of alleles. you end up with a spectrum of expression. imagine a heat map or a bell curve. this is just 2 plants...

No, you get combinations of the alleles from that male and female. If you are doing preservation, the more plants the better. There may be loci that have numerous alleles in play. Numbers also help in determining what’s dominant or not, if you don’t have the numbers you won’t see the ratios.

When you use less plants you are now, in a sense, selectively putting pressure on that pool. You better hope you picked the right ones to use.

 

[PoweredByLove]

No, you get combinations of the alleles from that male and female. If you are doing preservation, the more plants the better. There may be loci that have numerous alleles in play. Numbers also help in determining what’s dominant or not, if you don’t have the numbers you won’t see the ratios.

When you use less plants you are now, in a sense, selectively putting pressure on that pool. You better hope you picked the right ones to use.

so...basically you're saying the same thing i'm saying cept you say you need more numbers and i'm saying there's a point of diminishing returns? am i correct in my assessment?


lets say you take a male and a female right? and you get 1000 ...no 2000 seeds.

separate them into 2 lots. 200 in one group and 1800 in the other.
pop em all out and chart em all.

i'm willing to bet you a million dollars i don't even have that the 200 seed chart will be identical to the 1800 seed chart. i bet you could overlay them on a projector and you wouldn't be able to tell the phenotypical spread apart.

all this 2000+ plants shit is the difference between the plant you are looking for , and the plant you're looking for plus it has pink pistils and the leaves turn purple.

bet money.

if you take the offspring from all 2000 plants and you open pollinate them...sure there will be different expressions in the next generation. but if you randomly pop 2000 more seeds from these f2's and segregate them again like i outlined above...bet another million dollars the results will come out the same.

sure if you don't know what you have and you just wanna see all the possible gene variation you just need to ever increase your sample population...but even at 1 billion plants...i bet money the averages will come out the same at the end. i'm sure it's an inherent law of the universe or something. fractals/fibonnacci/repeating number sequences and all that jazz.

as above so below shit...

so like i said. i just choose the best shit from my pool and combine with the best shit from my other pool then work from there selecting what i like.

i think maybe you're talking about something more specific than breeding male selection?

cuz to bottleneck a line you have to repeatedly select for the traits you favor. aka..."breeding" isn't that why everyone is all on this guy or that guys jock strap? cuz they bottlenecked your favorite og with another plant?

if you want to introduce variation then yeah open pollinate every male you find on every single female, grow out all those seeds, and then do it again. now you have so much variation in your genes it's not even funny.

i think thats polyhybirds? or something?

 

[neongreen]

I think some here are getting completely the wrong end of the stick... possibly?

As I understand it, a population of at least 2000 is needed if you want to ensure that no genes are lost from the population. This is purely a measure to preserve a land race "as is" and prevent "bottle-necking" further down the line.

Breeding to create hybrids is another kettle of fish all together. There are no rules as such, but the fewer parents that are used, obviously will result in a hybrid that will quickly decline in vigor over the generations. Virtually every hybrid that is kept alive/pure in seed form is ultimately doomed to loose vigor and become useless for anything other than breeding eventually, since they have all been bottle-necked from the word go.

We would be wise to remember this and try to keep any remaining un-bottle-necked populations preserved, or else all that will be left in a few decades will be SK x WW x NL x Haze x Kush etc...

 

[Betterhaff]

@PoweredByLove. What I was saying is if you use 2 parents the pool is now reduced to those 2 plants. There may be many things lost from the population. I believe we’re talking about 2 different things here. My point is more along the lines of preservation and yours is more along the lines of selective breeding.

I can’t do a true preservation project let alone a good selective breeding project because I can’t run the numbers. (Back to the numbers, lol).

Ever seen any Ag breeding projects in progress? Most involve 1000’s of plants and these are selective breeding projects. It’s a little hard with cannabis due to its legal status.

 

[englishrick]

Wondering when mr betterhaff would show up,,, next chimera and Sam maybe even dubi an Charlie might chime in,,,

Wondering where greeninththumb and kopite are,,,not to mention Tom ,, wish they would pop by an say hello sometimes,,,I miss there input

 

[Betterhaff]

Ha Ha rick, no way am I in that class. Hadn’t read this thread and it seems to have veered off the topic a bit. In dioecious plants male selection is the tough part. I look for overall structure, smells, bud structure, and general fitness. I remember Nevil stating when selecting you’re better off using more males to see what they might contribute as you can more easily see the attributes of the females. Of course progeny testing will be the only way to see who’s got what.