Agree, I believe when anyone buys a pack or multiple packs of a specific strain, they SHOULD do a open pollination first, selection comes second. Of coarse, if there are very less vigorous plants, cull them but you never know , my first priority is vigor in general. This is turning out to be a nice civil thread.
How do you choose you breeding males?
- Thread starter JacFlasche
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Agree, I believe when anyone buys a pack or multiple packs of a specific strain, they SHOULD do a open pollination first, selection comes second. Of coarse, if there are very less vigorous plants, cull them but you never know , my first priority is vigor in general. This is turning out to be a nice civil thread.
You just jinxed it!
I couldn't make up my mind between two males so I flowered them out together sitting next to some really small clone onlys. Does that count? I'm going to save the pollen of both, mixed together to F2 the Dank Zappa with but moving forward will only use my keeper male for other crosses. I think I will probably make this my usual practice while picking males from now on, just to make sure I have a good male and see it flowered out with a backup essentially in case I chose poorly.
I'm flying by the seat of my pants though, learning as I go along. No other way to do it.
This IS a good thread
B
BAKED_BEANZ
i found i like to you one male , if there is lots of seed available . makes for a more predicable outcome in the offspring i find .
if its a rare strain , open pollination is a given .
it probably did,nt even need to be said .
if its a rare strain , open pollination is a given .
it probably did,nt even need to be said .
i think using males in the early stages of developmen , as discribed in this thread,, especial recessive males in early development is a bad idea,,, why not use feminised breeding to work the female side to perfection individually then reintroduce the y chromozone later and sculp the dioceous state to a perfect expression ,,?
am i losing my mind or what?
when are we going to see pure breed ibl feminised lines,,,come on guys,,,,lightbulb
am i losing my mind or what?
when are we going to see pure breed ibl feminised lines,,,come on guys,,,,lightbulb
D
Dr.Suess
I did read a post by SamS that open pollination with a population size less than 2000 does NOT preserve genetic diversity, it changes the genetics of the variety..
Discuss!
Discuss!
bigbadbiddy
Active member
Feminized breeding does simplify things.... a lot.
It also locks down the hermy trait in all your breeding projects which is .... sub-optimal to some and to others it makes the whole breeding effort pointless.
I personally belong to the latter category.
This is just so 2007. .I'm sorry bro. But you need to read Robert Allard Principles of Plant breeding and jump to 2016..
Selfing is the quickest way to remove the tenancy to reverse. .it's basically the same as incrossing ..all the recessive traits bubble up to the surface and you can chip away at the genotype to remove the reversal trait..essentially your actually breeding towards a form of sterility. ..remember it's us as breeder who remove the reversal trait from landrace genetics as they reverse naturally in the wild..we actually breed for sterility when we make modern hybrids. ..the reason why plants reverse is because the trait has not been removed from the line when it was domesticated into a modern line...more than likely this is because alleles responsible for this expression were not seen in the males used because we simply can't evaluate them or incrossing was not utilised to make them hidden traits show there ugly head...
New day bro..new dawn
I wonder if you could make good assumptions from vegging plants..then ya could crack 1000 and just get data sheets on the lot and try to find the winners before ya even switch to 12 12
I wish someone would do some gene marker research. Something that would give us clear indications of tge outcome of a cross before its even done..then we would be cooking with gas...not sure how that's going to play with polygeneric traits but Hay ho...get working you crazy genius out there..rick needs a new toy
bigbadbiddy
Active member
I never delved as far into feminized breeding as you so forgive me if I am not up-to-date.
What I based my assertion on is the fact that I could not find a breeder that convinced me that did only feminized breeding.
Although there were some like Female Seeds that seem to have a decent reputation and happy customers.
Wasn't aware that the tendency to herm can be limited or bred out through selfing. Still not sure I completely believe that but would research into it more before damning it, I suppose.
But just going by what I learned in life, I find it hard to imagine that breeding feminized only brings only advantages.
The advantages are clear but what are the disadvantages? If not locking down the hermy trait that can potentially bite you back in the ass years along the line, then what is it?
Because if it was only benificial, more breeders would do it.
There must be a reason why most reputable breeders who are known to actually do work on their strains are using regular seeds in their breeding and only produce feminized seeds from that regular breeding stock.
My assumption (that suited me logically) was always that the main disadvantage is creating hermy gear that could start hermying whenever.
I imagine you potentially end up with relatively "stable" F2s or F3s or F4s or whatever, sell those, then the growers make "F2s" from these seeds and when they grow those out (or the next generation), suddenly you have hermies everywhere.
What I based my assertion on is the fact that I could not find a breeder that convinced me that did only feminized breeding.
Although there were some like Female Seeds that seem to have a decent reputation and happy customers.
Wasn't aware that the tendency to herm can be limited or bred out through selfing. Still not sure I completely believe that but would research into it more before damning it, I suppose.
But just going by what I learned in life, I find it hard to imagine that breeding feminized only brings only advantages.
The advantages are clear but what are the disadvantages? If not locking down the hermy trait that can potentially bite you back in the ass years along the line, then what is it?
Because if it was only benificial, more breeders would do it.
There must be a reason why most reputable breeders who are known to actually do work on their strains are using regular seeds in their breeding and only produce feminized seeds from that regular breeding stock.
My assumption (that suited me logically) was always that the main disadvantage is creating hermy gear that could start hermying whenever.
I imagine you potentially end up with relatively "stable" F2s or F3s or F4s or whatever, sell those, then the growers make "F2s" from these seeds and when they grow those out (or the next generation), suddenly you have hermies everywhere.
Chimera, samS and Tom hill did it for me. Dubi and Charlie Garcia made my eyes open...worth a look bro
a post like this needs to be discussed, it's huge
but it can't be completely true, otherwise there would be hermie proof genetics out there
and as far as i know, that is not possible(so far), all cannabis populations do have the intersex trait to some extent
A lot of the bad reputation feminized seeds have earned is probably the consequence of two main aspects. Firstly, when the commercial production of feminized seeds started, the plants were reversed by means of rhodalization, which basically means the plants were stressed until they eventually produced male flowers. And to make things faster, easier and more reliable (= economically more reasonable), the preferred females not only had to possess the desired pheno- and chemotypic traits but they also had to react well to the used method of reversing. Of course this means that the used females often had a strong genetic tendency to develop male flowers, which was then handed on to the following generations.
Since reversing is now mostly done by using Colloidal Silver solutions, reversing females no longer implies this strong genetic tendency for hermaphrodism.
Secondly, quite a number of seed banks seem to use and/or have used female doner plants that possess great pheno- and/ or chemotypic traits, but were'nt thorougly tested for their tendency to produce male flowers (Greenhouse Seeds is probably to name in this respect). In consequence, many people get shitty results from femenized seeds, because their growing methods ain't perfect, which may be enough for these kind of plants to hermie.
Coughie
Member
I can't believe this thread went from "How do I pick a male?" to "Just make fem seed!"
As I stated earlier, it really comes down to the goal for the project..
If you want to make a highly refined IBL that only expresses one to three phenotypes, maybe you want to feminize seeds. (You can still do it with 1:1 breeding though)
But you can't honestly come into this conversation thinking that that one-method is going to fit all? Not every project, or even every person, wants to make or even grow, highly refined IBLs.
And I think it's fair to note, that once you have a bunch of refined seedlines like that - you cant get back everything you threw away/disregarded. It's gone. Unless you were smart enough to perform open pollinations alongside those generations of feminized inbreeding..
There are several landraces strains that you can only find in feminized form, and they're no better than the original landraces were - but it's because the only thing that was carried on was the feminized line that those individuals worked. Now there's no males to open pollinate the females with, to even TRY to open those genetics back up again.
They're bottlenecked into only being good for hybrids, because everyone tossed all the friggin males.
Taskenti, anyone?
So please, don't screw the coming generations of people by intentionally feminizing all your best lines, because there's a chance the successive generations of growers wont be content just growing out your personal selections of what highly refined lines look like.
Open pollinations need several males - and as to the post about Sam stating you need 2000+ individuals to keep from limiting genetics - I've never seen the post where he actually attempted the math.. And I've seen other research that suggests it can be done with as little as 50 plants, so it really just depends on who you believe.
1:1 combos need at least one male, obviously, and have their place in trying to properly IBL particular phenotypes - but that's the "work" everyone is talking about / seems scared of..
Feminized only beget feminized, so once you start down that path, there's really no coming back... You can hit those feminized seeds with a male generations later, but that bottle-necking is still present in the end. So even though you've got from regular -> feminized -> regular, the damage is done.... some people see it as a positive, but that's what I mean when I said that not every project has the same goals..
I dont see it as a positive.
As I stated earlier, it really comes down to the goal for the project..
If you want to make a highly refined IBL that only expresses one to three phenotypes, maybe you want to feminize seeds. (You can still do it with 1:1 breeding though)
But you can't honestly come into this conversation thinking that that one-method is going to fit all? Not every project, or even every person, wants to make or even grow, highly refined IBLs.
And I think it's fair to note, that once you have a bunch of refined seedlines like that - you cant get back everything you threw away/disregarded. It's gone. Unless you were smart enough to perform open pollinations alongside those generations of feminized inbreeding..
There are several landraces strains that you can only find in feminized form, and they're no better than the original landraces were - but it's because the only thing that was carried on was the feminized line that those individuals worked. Now there's no males to open pollinate the females with, to even TRY to open those genetics back up again.
They're bottlenecked into only being good for hybrids, because everyone tossed all the friggin males.
Taskenti, anyone?
So please, don't screw the coming generations of people by intentionally feminizing all your best lines, because there's a chance the successive generations of growers wont be content just growing out your personal selections of what highly refined lines look like.
Open pollinations need several males - and as to the post about Sam stating you need 2000+ individuals to keep from limiting genetics - I've never seen the post where he actually attempted the math.. And I've seen other research that suggests it can be done with as little as 50 plants, so it really just depends on who you believe.
1:1 combos need at least one male, obviously, and have their place in trying to properly IBL particular phenotypes - but that's the "work" everyone is talking about / seems scared of..
Feminized only beget feminized, so once you start down that path, there's really no coming back... You can hit those feminized seeds with a male generations later, but that bottle-necking is still present in the end. So even though you've got from regular -> feminized -> regular, the damage is done.... some people see it as a positive, but that's what I mean when I said that not every project has the same goals..
I dont see it as a positive.
bigbadbiddy
Active member
That sounds very plausible and logical to me.
Apparently not all fem breeders are created equal.
Will delve more into this topic.
/Edit
Coughie's post even better though ...
Both sides of the argument have merit but I think Coughie sums it up best.
I think the really crucial point is this:
Once you go that route, you are locking out so much genetic information, never to be recovered.
Consider the Chemdawg... It was discarded and how many current strains come from that one grower not having anything better to grow so he took care of the discarded clone and look what came of it.
Maybe a bad example as it is hermy genetic but the idea is the same.
Most of the so-called "breeders" are far away from being true masters of their craft and most don't have a more than rudimentary understanding of botany, biology, genetics, etc. .
Most of them are like you and me and get most of their knowledge through experience, trial and error, etc. .
I think the key point in the "feminized is not for breeding" and "preservation is key"-movement is that you can't trust the people who call themselves "breeders" to not eliminate very important and very desirable genetic properties along the way of their "breeding" efforts.
They will inevitably either miss things or simply view them as undesirable and discard them while they could be instrumental in keeping a strain line viable and healthy in the long run.
Not to mention properties that would never be discovered because they need certain hybridization to take full effect.
The bottom line is: Once you go that route, there is no turning back.
If you breed with regular seeds, there is always the potential to recoup lost characteristics or re-introduce them to the gene-pool.
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I did read a post by SamS that open pollination with a population size less than 2000 does NOT preserve genetic diversity, it changes the genetics of the variety..
Discuss!
I would say... a population less than 2000 might not preserve the FULL genetic diversity of a line, BUT, it will preserve a lot more than simply using one male and one female. It's not black/white... there are many shades of grey in between.
Just for the protocol: It wasn't my intention to sound as if I was advocating somthing along this line. In fact, I'm right there with you: Both ways have their merit and I think it's important (at least in the long run) for people to know about the factual implications of their 'breeding'-games and what they actually want to achieve.
I'm not quite sure if your argument is valid here, because the subtraction of certain genetic traits from a certain gene pool appears to me to be an essential aspect of what the term 'breeding' means. As far as I can see, you cannot actual breed for certain aspects without excluding some other aspects from the original gene pool.
Anyway, it seems as if the whole talk about using feminized seeds for breeding projecst focusses on using S-Generation seeds. Feminized seeds that were created by using two genetically individual plants hasn't been discussed within this thread. And rightfully so, since the topic is a different one
PoweredByLove
Most Loved
this whole 2000+ plants thing is just making more work for yourself imho.
you take a female and one male and mate them...you get millions of different combinations of alleles. you end up with a spectrum of expression. imagine a heat map or a bell curve. this is just 2 plants.
you add 10's and 100's of plants and all you're doing is making more work for yourself by having to sift through that many more similar plants with only tiny differences looking for a thing that you want.
why? why not just do the open pollination with however many plants you have on hand. 1:1 1:10 20:50 whatever...then sort those seeds in an huge open grow to find what you're looking for. do your test cross and repeat. only looking for one thing or a couple of things.
seems like this whole 2000+ at a time open pollination thing is just a smoke screen to keep you chasing your tails. everytime you add more inputs you exponentially increase your output. maybe these are ultra recessive traits you are chasing? i suppose lots of thousands at a time would be the best way to find it.
i mean just think about it. you pop 2000 seeds and get 1000 females... out of those thouand you get like 10 keepers right? and then you pollinate them with?? how many males? 1? 100? 10?
so then you have like 100000 million seeds...and now you have to pop all of them or a certain percentage to make sure you found what you wanted to go forward with right?
so you narrow that down to another 10? only 5 girls this time? repeat pollination...get only 10,000 million seeds this time...rinse...repeat...down to 1 ?, 3 girls?
pollinate... recover 10 million seeds... send to seedbay as testers at this point?
i prefer to pop the seeds and see what i like then look for more/better. rather than...i want xyz...lets pop 10000 seeds...open pollinate and see if we hit the lotto.
you take a female and one male and mate them...you get millions of different combinations of alleles. you end up with a spectrum of expression. imagine a heat map or a bell curve. this is just 2 plants.
you add 10's and 100's of plants and all you're doing is making more work for yourself by having to sift through that many more similar plants with only tiny differences looking for a thing that you want.
why? why not just do the open pollination with however many plants you have on hand. 1:1 1:10 20:50 whatever...then sort those seeds in an huge open grow to find what you're looking for. do your test cross and repeat. only looking for one thing or a couple of things.
seems like this whole 2000+ at a time open pollination thing is just a smoke screen to keep you chasing your tails. everytime you add more inputs you exponentially increase your output. maybe these are ultra recessive traits you are chasing? i suppose lots of thousands at a time would be the best way to find it.
i mean just think about it. you pop 2000 seeds and get 1000 females... out of those thouand you get like 10 keepers right? and then you pollinate them with?? how many males? 1? 100? 10?
so then you have like 100000 million seeds...and now you have to pop all of them or a certain percentage to make sure you found what you wanted to go forward with right?
so you narrow that down to another 10? only 5 girls this time? repeat pollination...get only 10,000 million seeds this time...rinse...repeat...down to 1 ?, 3 girls?
pollinate... recover 10 million seeds... send to seedbay as testers at this point?
i prefer to pop the seeds and see what i like then look for more/better. rather than...i want xyz...lets pop 10000 seeds...open pollinate and see if we hit the lotto.
Choosing males.. choosing population numbers (samS over 2000).. whether or not we should even be using males.. hidden traits in the male side of cannabis..maintenance of bio diversity. ..preservation
Communion. .
That's what this thread is all about
Communion. .
That's what this thread is all about
Open polination will give a line lower inbreeding coefficients. . This might mean we lose some of the polygeneric traits that make the line so special to us... it's not like we want it to turn back into hemp
