Hollow Stems?

[paradoxlost]

Did nobody watch the video?

This thread is super frustrating.....

I watched it. The chelation aspect makes perfect sense. This is why hydro grows will suffer from boytritis at a greater rate than a soil grow.

But as far as hollow stems are concerned, where are your boron and soluble silicon levels in your soil at? Those are the formative cations of the xylem super highway.

 

[jidoka]

on a Morgan test I am looking for 3000 lbs per acre Ca with Ca:Mg ratios of 7-10: 1. I want 1 ppm B. I have not established a soluble Si number in soil yet...in tissue I want a min 0.5%

 

[Bulldog11]

Only 1ppm of Boron? Really? Maybe I have been over shooting. I try to hit 4ppm, don't get worried it's too high until 8 ppms.

As for Si, I haven't done enough testing with Si. It's not part of my standard test at Spectrum labs. However, you are correct. Si is an important part of this puzzle as well.

Like Jidoka said, it's about balance. So all elements should be taken into consideration. However Ca, B and Si are the main players in hallow stems. In order to balance said Ca, B and Si you need to balance every element.

 

[jidoka]

Soluble B. M3 will be higher

 

[Ibechillin]

That is exactly what Jidoka was trying to tell you guys. Too much N will result in a Ca deficiency...... That is why people use products like Albion Calcium...... watch the video

https://youtu.be/2omoNP1ijp4 start at the two minute mark if you want to skip a bit. The video is very informative for this thread, I suggest everybody watches the whole video. Listen to the delivery system of nutrients to the leaves.......

So I watched the video on Albion Calcium. Seems to me like someone just added a few drops of humic and fulvic acid with some soluble calcium powder to a jug of water and marketed it to a bunch of idiots as some miracle fix all.

But I am the incompetent one that has no clue how plant nutrition works...

"Humic and fulvic acids are intermediate chelators. Chela means claw, so chelates are organic molecules that attach to mineral ions like a claw, holding them tightly enough so they don’t get locked up in the soil, but loosely enough so they are available to the plant on demand.

Humic acid molecules are larger than fulvic acid molecules and make great soil conditioners. Fulvic acids are smaller, more biologically active molecules that are faster-acting and make excellent foliar sprays. Both improve the uptake of minerals, stimulate plant growth and improve the plant’s natural resistance to environmental stresses.

By supplying the soil with sufficient humic acid, we help to bind cations (positively charged elements). The ability to chelate positively charged multivalent ions (Mg, Ca, Fe and other “trace minerals” of value to plants) is probably the most important role of humic acid, with respect to your soil. By chelating the ions, humic acid facilitates the uptake of the ions by means of several mechanisms."

 

[jidoka]

Albion does not use humid/fulvic. Dig a bit deeper

 

[Ibechillin]

I understand there is probably more to it than that, my bad for coming off like an asshole.
If you could explain it more i would appreciate it.

My point is simply that i am not clueless on the availability of nutrients or metabolic processes that take place during the growth of a plant, or the causes of unhealthy stem decay/hollow pith.

My family has worked in the produce farming and retailing industry for 60 years, myself now going on 10 years. I have seen and experienced first hand the effects of deficiency on many types of growing and harvested plants. Blossom end rot and stalk rot are usually key signs of lack of calcium.

In relation to hollow stems in cannabis being caused from deficiency debate.
The newest growth on the plant will show Ca deficiency first typically as brown rust/spots, as the deficiency gets worse the cell walls of the plant become weaker and more prone to infection.

If the hollow stems are being caused by a lack of something, why dont the hollow stem plants give me signs of any deficiency in the new leaves while its growing, why arent branches becoming weak or developing stalk rot?
leaves growing lush green, With very sturdy fan leaf stems.

I just do not understand how an entire plant could be starving for calcium, silica, and boron and not show it on the leaves during its growth...

Edit: Read back a few pages and wanted to comment on this.

Hollow stems snap easier under strain, and do not recover as quickly as solid stems. I have seen the symptom progress to a near brittleness that is of no advantage to the plant.

My hollow stemmed plant's branches last season were extremely flexible, its how they were able to swing in the 70+mph wind and hold up being weighed down by rain, ice, and snow. Instead of stressing the center of the branches and cracking, or breaking off the trunk at the base they were super elastic, ready to return to its origin after the storm ended.

 

[Natural high]

Only 1ppm of Boron? Really? Maybe I have been over shooting. I try to hit 4ppm, don't get worried it's too high until 8 ppms.

As for Si, I haven't done enough testing with Si. It's not part of my standard test at Spectrum labs. However, you are correct. Si is an important part of this puzzle as well.

Like Jidoka said, it's about balance. So all elements should be taken into consideration. However Ca, B and Si are the main players in hallow stems. In order to balance said Ca, B and Si you need to balance every element.

Your not so Easygoing alias gets banned so you bring one of your many other identities in to continue where he left off. Anyone who feels the need to have multiple identities on a forum is not trustworthy imo and thus your opinion on this subject means fuck all. I don't care if my healthy plants have a hollow stem as it's not the part I'm smoking.

 

[djonkoman]

I also watched the video. nice explanation about calcium transport, and I'm sure it's a nice product in certain situations, like for a tomatogrower dealing with BER.
but it doesn't prove anything about hollow stems in cannabis.

so far the only source I have for hollow stems in cannabis being caused by calcium and/or boron deffciency are 2 posters in this topic. I have not been able to find any research papers about it, except for hollow stem disorder in brocolli/caulliflower. if there are any that I didn't find, please point me to them, I'd like to read them.
I understand there aren't that much papers dealing specifically with cannabis. but hollow stems in just one species(brassica oleracea) being caused by calcium/boron deffciency is not sufficient proof to say the same about cannabis, especially since those hollow stems in brassica look different.

looking at the pictures in this thread of cannabis with hollow stems, the plants look healthy, and the hollow part of the stem is a nice clean round hole, without brown color.
while hollow stem disorder in brassica looks more like damage, a torn uneven hole, with possible discoloration:

I'm open for the idea hollow stems in cannabis could be a sign of calcium defficiency, but looking at the evidence I've seen, I'm not convinced.
so far, I think the most likely is that hollow stem is just something some cannabisplants do. a trait with genetic variation within the species without clear benefit or detriment(except if you're growing for fibre, then I can imagine you would want hollow stems).

 

[Bulldog11]

Your not so Easygoing alias gets banned so you bring one of your many other identities in to continue where he left off. Anyone who feels the need to have multiple identities on a forum is not trustworthy imo and thus your opinion on this subject means fuck all. I don't care if my healthy plants have a hollow stem as it's not the part I'm smoking.

Why do you need to stoop to this level man? I asked gypsy to bin Easy Going as he liberated my old account. Grow up man.

 

[Bulldog11]

I also watched the video. nice explanation about calcium transport, and I'm sure it's a nice product in certain situations, like for a tomatogrower dealing with BER.
but it doesn't prove anything about hollow stems in cannabis.

A page or two ago, some people were saying nugs were sipping on the hallow stems drawing nutrients up. The video was showing different modes of vascular systems in the plant.

Step one, plant philology. Step two, applying it to cannabis.

We can now eliminate the possibility that hallow stems are better because they suck nutrients like a straw....... We have at least eliminated that possibility, right? We can move forward from that at least right?

 

[djonkoman]

yes. we have moved on from that.

but I think we haven't solved yet the question what causes hollow stems.
you and jidoka say it's calcium/boron.
I think that is an interesting suggestion, so I would like to know what you are basing that hypothesis on, and if you have anything to support it(scientific papers, pictures, or just observations you remember).

but so far the only thing I've read in this thread is just the claim that it's calcium/boron, without further explanation or evidence.

I think we have plenty of stonermyths going around already because people just parrot eachother online without understanding(just some that I read regularly: whorled phyllotaxy is triploidy, cannabis is c4, and phenotypes are fixed combinations of multiple traits).

so before we create another possible myth, I would like to know how you arrived at the conclusion that a hollow stem in cannabis is a sign of calcium and/or boron defficiency.

 

[Natural high]

Why do you need to stoop to this level man? I asked gypsy to bin Easy Going as he liberated my old account. Grow up man.

Yeah sure you did. Burned a few to many bridges did you?

 

[Bulldog11]

yes. we have moved on from that.

but I think we haven't solved yet the question what causes hollow stems.
you and jidoka say it's calcium/boron.
I think that is an interesting suggestion, so I would like to know what you are basing that hypothesis on, and if you have anything to support it(scientific papers, pictures, or just observations you remember).

but so far the only thing I've read in this thread is just the claim that it's calcium/boron, without further explanation or evidence.

I think we have plenty of stonermyths going around already because people just parrot eachother online without understanding(just some that I read regularly: whorled phyllotaxy is triploidy, cannabis is c4, and phenotypes are fixed combinations of multiple traits).

so before we create another possible myth, I would like to know how you arrived at the conclusion that a hollow stem in cannabis is a sign of calcium and/or boron defficiency.

Through hundreds of soil tests, and hundreds of plants grown, yes I have been able to see 100% for myself that proper Ca and B levels eliminate hallow stems. Even on the hardest to grow plants.

Same with Jidoka. He isn't some tent grower. He consults for pro's and thousands of plants using many testing methods.

We are not blowing smoke up anybody butt's. It's tried and proven.

Why doesn't somebody that has a strain that "always" has hallow stems try it out? Does anybody here with hallow stems even do soil tests? If so, post them up..... I bet it's low on Ca and B.........

 

[Bulldog11]

Yeah sure you did. Burned a few to many bridges did you?

Why don't you ask gypsy for yourself...... You mad cause you tried to pull seniority on me, just to realize I have been here since day one?

 

[Yard dog]

yes. we have moved on from that.

but I think we haven't solved yet the question what causes hollow stems.
you and jidoka say it's calcium/boron.
I think that is an interesting suggestion, so I would like to know what you are basing that hypothesis on, and if you have anything to support it(scientific papers, pictures, or just observations you remember).

but so far the only thing I've read in this thread is just the claim that it's calcium/boron, without further explanation or evidence.

I think we have plenty of stonermyths going around already because people just parrot eachother online without understanding(just some that I read regularly: whorled phyllotaxy is triploidy, cannabis is c4, and phenotypes are fixed combinations of multiple traits).

so before we create another possible myth, I would like to know how you arrived at the conclusion that a hollow stem in cannabis is a sign of calcium and/or boron defficiency.

Not what I said specifically is it? I did say it acts in a C4 like manner, it likes a hotter air temp than typical C3 plants (C3 = top 25c low = 15c) where as C4 plants (top = 35c, low =25c). If you use Co2 you will need an increase in the ambient air temp to 29/30c as respiration is increased.
It is certain that it varies from plant to plant, but I say the mechanism acts more in a C4 fashion for the bigger plants in Cannabis, they will be bigger, tolerate drought more and be better plants. This is my experience and may not be yours but I think it is wrong to say ALL cannabis is C3 and acts as so.
I'll also add that any plant with a higher level of WUE is acting as C4. I know that most people strictly class Cannabis as C3 but I haven't found it to act strictly as so.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ant_medicinal_plant_to_elevated_levels_of_CO2

 

[Yard dog]

Your not so Easygoing alias gets banned so you bring one of your many other identities in to continue where he left off. Anyone who feels the need to have multiple identities on a forum is not trustworthy imo and thus your opinion on this subject means fuck all. I don't care if my healthy plants have a hollow stem as it's not the part I'm smoking.

Ok feel I need to tackle something there, my other id is Kopite.. so I have 2 accounts on here (i like it like that if 1 gets banned or I forgot the password.. no probs merging the 2 accounts if mods felt it needed) but I'm posting that so no one thinks I'm being a bit shady or whatever!

 

[Natural high]

you are pathetic. squirm back under the hole you came out of

Thanks for the reputation but I'm not sure about your comment though.. maybe have a couple of cones because you seem a bit uptight.

 

[djonkoman]

Not what I said specifically is it? I did say it acts in a C4 like manner, it likes a hotter air temp than typical C3 plants (C3 = top 25c low = 15c) where as C4 plants (top = 35c, low =25c). If you use Co2 you will need an increase in the ambient air temp to 29/30c as respiration is increased.
It is certain that it varies from plant to plant, but I say the mechanism acts more in a C4 fashion for the bigger plants in Cannabis, they will be bigger, tolerate drought more and be better plants. This is my experience and may not be yours but I think it is wrong to say ALL cannabis is C3 and acts as so.
I'll also add that any plant with a higher level of WUE is acting as C4. I know that most people strictly class Cannabis as C3 but I haven't found it to act strictly as so.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ant_medicinal_plant_to_elevated_levels_of_CO2

I didn't specifically mean you(and didn't want to mention it when I first read your post, since I didn't want to come off as a know-it-all), but I read something like this a lot on weedforums.

you're misunderstanding what C3 and C4 means.

the difference between c3 and c4 is not just optimum temperature, it's not a flexible gradient where a plantspecies can be both and just switches over when it likes to. you can't just switch a plant. there is currently a researchproject trying to turn rice(a c3-plant) into c4, but that's a big difficult project with lots of funding, and it's still not guaranteed they'll succeed.

the difference between c3 and c4 is how they first capture co2 from the airspace behind the stomata.
c3 just uses rubisco. however, rubisco has affinity for both oxygen and co2. this means there's a loss of energy due to o2 binding to rubisco, which then has to be removed again, and the higher the o2 concentration, the higher the energyloss becomes. this is called photorespiration.

under droughtstress, a plant closes it's stomata to prevent waterloss. this means co2 within the airspace behind the stomata gets used up, and the ratio of o2 increases. this is why c3-plants are less efficient under waterstress. it also explains why increasing co2 levels of the air increase temperature optimum: the plant can close it's stomata further and still have sufficient co2(relative to o2).

c4 plants however have a combination of an extra enzyme, and a special leaf anatomy(you can see this leaf anatomy under a microscope. it's called kranz anatomy. you can check a cannabisleaf yourself and you'll see it has no kranz anatomy).

c4 also has stomata. it also has an airaspace behind it. but from that airspace, the co2 gets captured by pep-carboxylase instead of rubisco. pep carboxylase only binds co2, not o2. it then gets transported to another space, released again, and here finally rubisco can pick it up. but the difference is, since this other space isn't in direct contact with the air, there is no oxygen, so rubsco can't bind oxygen, eliminating the loss from photorespiration.

pep carboxylase has a little higher temperature optimum as rubisco though, and it is an extra step, so under low temperature/high co2 C3 is still more efficient. but under conditions of waterstress and high temperatures C4 starts to shine.

as a kind of weird exception there are also CAM-plants, but those are desertplants like cacti, so I'll just mention them to say they exist.

 

[Yard dog]

You can have C4 photosynthesis without the Kranz though as they found with Bienertia, which they named ‘Bienertioid’.. and that was years ago, they found a few types that were C3 but acted as C4 without the Kranz. (Thank you for the post though )

I'll also add this on Tobacco;

Most plants are known as C3 plants because the first product of photosynthetic CO2 fixation is a three-carbon compound. C4 plants, which use an alternative pathway in which the first product is a four-carbon compound, have evolved independently many times and are found in at least 18 families. In addition to differences in their biochemistry, photosynthetic organs of C4 plants show alterations in their anatomy and ultrastructure. Little is known about whether the biochemical or anatomical characteristics of C4 photosynthesis evolved first. Here we report that tobacco, a typical C3 plant, shows characteristics of C4 photosynthesis in cells of stems and petioles that surround the xylem and phloem, and that these cells are supplied with carbon for photosynthesis from the vascular system and not from stomata. These photosynthetic cells possess high activities of enzymes characteristic of C4 photosynthesis, which allow the decarboxylation of four-carbon organic acids from the xylem and phloem, thus releasing CO2 for photosynthesis. These biochemical characteristics of C4 photosynthesis in cells around the vascular bundles of stems of C3 plants might explain why C4 photosynthesis has evolved independently many times.