Heart Attack Proof...

[Aksala]

All I ask is you read Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease....

Now please try to see your point of view?.....

Are you nuts man? I lived your point of view for part of my life...I KNOW your point of view...

And it is one that is going to fail you in the long run...IMO....

You will NEVER convince me the way you eat at this moment is healthier than the way I eat....period...end of story...

So keep trying to convince all you want...but...its falling on deaf ears...

 

[Rukind]

All I ask is you read Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease....

Now please try to see your point of view?.....

Are you nuts man? I lived your point of view for part of my life...I KNOW your point of view...

And it is one that is going to fail you in the long run...IMO....

You will NEVER convince me the way you eat at this moment is healthier than the way I eat....period...end of story...

So keep trying to convince all you want...but...its falling on deaf ears...

I am not trying to convince you of anything. you obviously did not eat enough fat.

I dont care how you eat or anyone else. I am just explaining why I eat the way I do and my reasons for it.

You were the one calling my stupid.. and now im nuts.. what else am i? how do you know me so well? Stop with that shit man. its getting annoying. I told you I wasn't going to reply to you anymore, but you apologized.. if you dont want to discuss it, that is fine. I dont care.. what so ever.

I am not posting all this just for you. It is for anyone that is interested.

I know people who have done this for decades and have no problems. They are more healthy than most people I know.

I will read that book. the author was a member of skull and bones, i find that interesting and funny. I am not the conspiracy type, but i wouldn't put it past him to benefit any corporations for the right price. George Bush was part of the same sorority.

All I ask, is to not criticize my way of eating if you dont know anything about it. if you read my resources and get to know my way of eating, then I will listen to your criticism. in the mean time I will be reading your book.

 

[Rukind]

So far, Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr., recomends no oils what so ever. i think keeping oils out of your body alone would improve heart health. Not the vegetables he is recomending.

I dont eat oils either.. I eat fats.. I eat nothing that has poly unsaturated fats..

I will use macadamia nut oil or small amounts of olive oil very rarely. those are mono unsaturated and they do not cause inflamation in the arteries

he recommends no olive oils because, small amounts of poly unsaturated fats are in olive oil.

This guy is all about the money, though. He is all over tv and the news. I dont trust the guy, but thats not based off of much.. just an instinct..

However, I am keeping my mind open.. I will keep reading and dig deeper.

here is a good thread on reddit/paleo on the documentary "forks over knives". Also lots of people talking about your author. http://www.reddit.com/r/Paleo/comments/k9pmj/forks_over_knives_vegan_propaganda_film_is_on/

also vegans have to take vitamins.. I dont..

I am not even saying vegetables are bad. They are fine but they are a rare item. They are good for you in smaller amounts.. They are not that important, though. You can get everything you need in meat. fat diet reduces and prevents heart disease as well.

Also, I wont be getting diabetes..

your Author and his "20 year study" appears to be based upon a sample size of 17 patients. Also, he appears to be a retired surgeon with no specialization in nutrition. I'm curious how he explains away broader cultural studies of heart disease that don't correlate with his hypothesis. In one study, Aborginal Australians had the highest rate of heart disease but the lowest total cholesterol.

so he just puts info together to fit his hypothesis. that is what i call BAD SCIENCE. science is not about proving yourself right or for the money. He just argues his points based on bad science just to make himself right.. just like the guy that started the lipid hypothesis bullshit.

his diet will reduce heart disease. no doubt about that. but only because you are reducing the poly unsaturated fats.

but that diet does not have enough nutrients unless you supplement and drink protein shakes.. yuck. That is no way to live for me. We can live off of what is provided to us from the earth. If we couldn't live off of it, then what the fuck did we do?


I just read that, before we blamed carbs/sugar, we used to blame fat for diabetes lol

 

[Aksala]

What really sucks is I started this thread because for the first time in my life I'm healthy...feel amazing and am losing weight at an incredible rate....and I no longer fear heart disease because I'll never have it...

And you had to troll it....

Seriously bro...you suck.

Go start your own thread to push your lifestyle....seriously....

 

[Rukind]

What really sucks is I started this thread because for the first time in my life I'm healthy...feel amazing and am losing weight at an incredible rate....and I no longer fear heart disease because I'll never have it...

And you had to troll it....

Seriously bro...you suck.

Go start your own thread to push your lifestyle....seriously....

haha man calm down im sorry i am upsetting you. If you feel healthy that is great. I am not a troll. how am i trolling? do you know the definition of trolling? I am having a discussion.

one more thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VaNJO7KMgg&feature=related

From what you was eating, I am sure this diet makes you feel great and if it works for you then why does it matter? Obviously even if you just remove polyunsaturated fats (like you have), you are gonna feel a lot better and be healthy.

Just remember, even if you have low cholesterol, doesn't mean you have a healthy heart. heart attacks happen all the time on low cholesterol. You are just saying that my way of eating is wrong.. I do not say that about your eating habbits. I agree your way is a better way than most. That is why I had this discussion in the first place. You cannot tell me my way of eating is wrong and expect me to just agree do you? I am not as stupid as you think, I do my research.

but the way you are eating should seriously prevent it. good luck to you, I will leave your thread now.

 

[Aksala]

Rukind...do you even know what causes a heart attack and what heart disease is?

Has very little to do with how healthy a persons heart is...

Hearts beat all day long....it doesn't stop working....it doesn't really become "unhealthy"....

Its the blood and arteries that are unhealthy...

What you failed to even talk about his "17 patients" was that they were all in very severe stages of heart disease/heart failure....

And in a matter of weeks of eating a plant based diet the blockages had started to reduce themselves and there was no more chest pain ect...

With no excercise at all...the body started to heal itself...and these aren't spring chicken like you and me (i'm 36)..these are people who were considered to be the "walking dead" at ages from 50-70 and every one of them that stuck to the plant based diet is still alive now 20+ years later.

You like to twist things just a little bit and you have a talent for it....you should probably go into politics...

So...there's no real way to test this as who knows where the fuck you will be in 20 years...

But stick to your diet for that long...and you will have health problems....

If you dont....come look me up and rub it in my face...

 

[Rukind]

Rukind...do you even know what causes a heart attack and what heart disease is?

Has very little to do with how healthy a persons heart is...

Hearts beat all day long....it doesn't stop working....it doesn't really become "unhealthy"....

Its the blood and arteries that are unhealthy...

What you failed to even talk about his "17 patients" was that they were all in very severe stages of heart disease/heart failure....

And in a matter of weeks of eating a plant based diet the blockages had started to reduce themselves and there was no more chest pain ect...

With no excercise at all...the body started to heal itself...and these aren't spring chicken like you and me (i'm 36)..these are people who were considered to be the "walking dead" at ages from 50-70 and every one of them that stuck to the plant based diet is still alive now 20+ years later.

You like to twist things just a little bit and you have a talent for it....you should probably go into politics...

So...there's no real way to test this as who knows where the fuck you will be in 20 years...

But stick to your diet for that long...and you will have health problems....

If you dont....come look me up and rub it in my face...

..... im done here

i give you the benefit of the doubt and reasearch what you have proposed.. you have not taken the time to read anything I have posted.

you are stuck in the mud man. like i said, i recomend about 5g of cubensis. that will surely open that mind up to different idea's.

I dont know why you have a problem with an idea that there could be more than 1 way to be healthy.

take it easy on that pumper

 

[toughmudderdave]

24

I'm 51....**grin**

 

[toughmudderdave]

)..these are people who were considered to be the "walking dead" at ages from 50-70 and every one of them that stuck to the plant based diet is still alive now 20+ years later.

**giggle** This "walking dead" just ran/walked 13.5 miles with a beginning elevation of ~6200ft topping out at 8900ft. Total ascent was 6500ft and I completed over 20 physical challenges.

I eat "plants"...In fact, I love plants. Grains, broccoli, carrots, eggplant....Oh yeah.

I'm with you Aksala....And I'll stake my body on it. I was once (2 years ago) eating a lot of red meat, saturated fats, low fiber and my blood tests indicated that I was on the "fast track" to diabetes and heart failure. With exercise and eating a "clean" diet, I turned that around....in 3 months. I now share that with clients...and I get results.

 

[Aksala]

Rukind..you didn't research anything...you looked up a guys name...found out a few things you could use to make him look bad...then you came on here and talked shit....don't try to pretend like you aren't trying to stir the pot man. Perfect example is the way you said he used "17 patients" in his study...the amount of patients isn't whats imortant...its that ALL of them reduced their arterial blockages by doing this diet in a matter of weeks...and ALL of them went from maybe having 1-2 years left at current rate...if that. To being still alive and healthy 25 years later..

So pick and choose and add your little remarks all you want..that's why you should be a politician..you have a gift for it.

And mudder thats awesome to hear...I was on the same track.

 

[Aksala]

Also..never said there isn't more than one way to be healthy....I'm just saying the way you eat isn't a healthy way for most people....especially older people....

So keep twisting it to work in your favor all you want...clearly you have a calling.

 

[Rukind]

this guy is in his 70's.. he used to have diabetes and heart disease.. he had diabetes at 12 years old.. also he is a DOCTOR. he went to school just to explain eating this way helped him. now he is a doctor

and he is a doctor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VaNJO7KMgg&feature=related

you guys have the wrong idea about saturated fat. the word FAT scares you but it isn't what you think it is.

its poly unsaturated fats that are the killer.. you can eat all the vegetables and red meat in the world and you are still gonna get heart disease if you eat poly unsaturated fats.

"There are basically three types of fatty acids, saturated, which are the principle kind you have in your body; monounsaturated, like linoleic found in macadamia nut oil and olive oil; and the polyunsaturated kind, found in a lot of vegetable oils. These three types of fatty acids are combined (esterified) with glycerine in nature to form triglycerides, but the ones in your body fat will be the saturated kind, since that is what your body synthesizes. The best type for fuel is the saturated kind, it burns clean, not surprising since this is the kind that you are carrying around with you. There are some of the so-called Omega-3 fatty acids in all animal fat, not only in fish. The monos are good, in fact there are health benefits from having a certain amount of them in your diet. The dangerous ones are the polys. Polyunsaturated fatty acids have double bonds in the carbon chain which oxidize to form organic peroxides. These compounds are the most highly reactive of the so called "free radicals" which are associated with aging of the skin and other organs. The reason many people are taking high doses of vitamin C and E is to try to neutralize the free radicals. The joke is that they are probably creating the radicals faster than they can destroy them by consuming polyunsaturated oils in their diet."

also processed meats with nitrates are another cause of heart disease. its not grass fed meat alone thats doing it.

keeping your fat at 60 percent is improtant or it will not work.


http://www.ajcn.org/content/91/3/535.abstract

if you watch that first youtube video (like i said many times) you will see that it explains heart disease very well. Also the link to low carber explains it too.

I personally know guys older than both of you that have been eating high fat diets for over 20 years and are in great health. Never have had heart problems or diabetes.

i dont know how you can related saturated fat to diabetes at all.. that isn't even logical.

do not tell me the way i eat is wrong cause i know it isn't. I have done a lot of research on this. I was into vegan at first and felt like shit.. eating nothing but whole organic foods. the only way i felt okay is if i made protein shakes and took vitamins.. even then I didn't have nearly the energy I have now. I would get a boost of energy from fruit and then crash hard.

I would like to see how long you can fast before you start feeling like shit. I bet I could go longer and that is a good indication of good health. some doctors will make you fast before you come in to see how your feeling. if you are fine 24 hours later you are most likely in good health.

I rarely even get hungry. I have constant sustained energy and my mind is more clear than it has ever been.

Can you believe a 24 year old is out smarting you?? I guess age doesn't have much to do with brains does it? You obviously aren't to great at doing research. You got to look at the bigger picture. there is more than 1 side to every story you hear.. I just wonder how you treat your plants??

 

[Rukind]

oh and we cant forget about this 88 year old guy that eats 24 eggs a day and is in good health http://buffalo360.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/an-all-egg-diet-what-whould-happen/

thats over 2000 calories a day in eggs.

 

[Aksala]

Again...I've explained this already....some have the genetic makeup to deal with that type of a diet...

But the MAJORITY of people don't.....

Get it? Nobody is saying you can't eat like that and be healthy....but MOST people cannot...

BTW didn't you say you were leaving?

 

[Rukind]

Again...I've explained this already....some have the genetic makeup to deal with that type of a diet...

But the MAJORITY of people don't.....

Get it? Nobody is saying you can't eat like that and be healthy....but MOST people cannot...

BTW didn't you say you were leaving?

and how do you know this? is that just what you think? where is the research?

I believe most people can eat like that and be healthy. I haven't met a person who has a problem with it if they keep the carbs low and the fat high. no poly unsat fats.. it always works for everyone that I know of.

Also, you did tell me that I cant be healthy by eating this way. do you want me to find the quote for you?

I dont see how i am twisting anything either. I am pretty consistent in my point of view.
i will stick around.. this is fun.

 

[ixnay007]

haha man calm down im sorry i am upsetting you. If you feel healthy that is great. I am not a troll. how am i trolling? do you know the definition of trolling? I am having a discussion.

one more thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VaNJO7KMgg&feature=related

From what you was eating, I am sure this diet makes you feel great and if it works for you then why does it matter? Obviously even if you just remove polyunsaturated fats (like you have), you are gonna feel a lot better and be healthy.

Just remember, even if you have low cholesterol, doesn't mean you have a healthy heart. heart attacks happen all the time on low cholesterol. You are just saying that my way of eating is wrong.. I do not say that about your eating habbits. I agree your way is a better way than most. That is why I had this discussion in the first place. You cannot tell me my way of eating is wrong and expect me to just agree do you? I am not as stupid as you think, I do my research.

but the way you are eating should seriously prevent it. good luck to you, I will leave your thread now.

Beyond any other consideration, your diet is completely unsustainable, do you have any idea how much food and water the cows your steaks come from consume? How much Co2 and methane they produce?

If you wanted to eat proteins, insect protein is much more sustainable, you could supplement with eggs and butter, for the animal fat, and you'd be getting more vitamins, minerals and not destroying the environment at the same time.

I'm still not buying the no veggies and fruit hypothesis, we're omnivores, and while we can't obtain much from grass and some leaves, we have no problems obtaining energy/nutrition from most plants and trees.. go have a look at foragers, as they say; There are over 120,000 edible plants world wide. You don't think that early humans partook in those foods?

You go buy your steak at a butcher. Ancient man had to make a spear, go find and catch an animal, butcher it, bring it back, defend it from other predators, etc. You seem to have some idealistic world where your average cavemen walked outside and could hit three buffalo with a big rock.

As for the Inuit, yes, they survive on blubber, but they've also been living there as a population for thousands and thousands of years, plenty of time to adapt to a diet where for a good part of the year white is the only color you see.

 

[Rukind]

Beyond any other consideration, your diet is completely unsustainable, do you have any idea how much food and water the cows your steaks come from consume? How much Co2 and methane they produce?

If you wanted to eat proteins, insect protein is much more sustainable, you could supplement with eggs and butter, for the animal fat, and you'd be getting more vitamins, minerals and not destroying the environment at the same time.

I'm still not buying the no veggies and fruit hypothesis, we're omnivores, and while we can't obtain much from grass and some leaves, we have no problems obtaining energy/nutrition from most plants and trees.. go have a look at foragers, as they say; There are over 120,000 edible plants world wide. You don't think that early humans partook in those foods?

You go buy your steak at a butcher. Ancient man had to make a spear, go find and catch an animal, butcher it, bring it back, defend it from other predators, etc. You seem to have some idealistic world where your average cavemen walked outside and could hit three buffalo with a big rock.

As for the Inuit, yes, they survive on blubber, but they've also been living there as a population for thousands and thousands of years, plenty of time to adapt to a diet where for a good part of the year white is the only color you see.

you have not read all my post. I know for a fact we ate many things besides meat. but it was rare since we did not have agriculture. it was what we used in between the hunts. I never said they had plenty of animal to eat all the time, but thats what they went after. They new that fat is what gave them what they needed. I dont know why you have the idea that i think cavemen had it easy.. i didn't say anything like that in any of my post.

I know this way of eating will spark a lot of discussion as it does all over the web.. but the evidence is there. read all my post in this thread for all my resources and information.

I go to my butcher and tell him to leave the fat on my steak instead of trimming it off.

we do not need any fruits or veggies what so ever. they were only there to eat when we were hungry and had no meat. women seemed to enjoy fruits more around that time of the month or during pregnancy.


inuit is not the only humans to survive on fat. we have only had agriculture for 10 to 15,000 years.

why does it matter how much co2 and methane a cow produces?

I dont see how it is unsustainable when I know people who have been doing it for decades like I have said before.

a 77 year old doctor even eats this way who had diabetes when he was 12.. an 88 year old man eats 24 eggs a day and is in good health.

owsley stanley ate this way for over 47 years.. nothing but meat.. no veggies at all!

I know about 7 other people who have eaten this way for decades who are anywhere from 40 to 60 years old.

I dont need much protein.. hell you can survive on no protein and just fat alone for months.. you cannot, however, live on protein alone for very long at all.. protein can be toxic.. I only eat about 20 to 30 percent protein and the rest of my calories is from fat

if fat was not important to us then there would be no purpose for pemmican which played a big part in the fur trade. it was about 60 percent fat.

 

[ixnay007]

you have not read all my post. I know for a fact we ate many things besides meat. but it was rare since we did not have agriculture. it was what we used in between the hunts. I never said they had plenty of animal to eat all the time, but thats what they went after. They new that fat is what gave them what they needed. I dont know why you have the idea that i think cavemen had it easy.. i didn't say anything like that in any of my post.

I know this way of eating will spark a lot of discussion as it does all over the web.. but the evidence is there. read all my post in this thread for all my resources and information.

I go to my butcher and tell him to leave the fat on my steak instead of trimming it off.

we do not need any fruits or veggies what so ever. they were only there to eat when we were hungry and had no meat. women seemed to enjoy fruits more around that time of the month or during pregnancy.


inuit is not the only humans to survive on fat. we have only had agriculture for 10 to 15,000 years.

why does it matter how much co2 and methane a cow produces?

I dont see how it is unsustainable when I know people who have been doing it for decades like I have said before.

a 77 year old doctor even eats this way who had diabetes when he was 12.. an 88 year old man eats 24 eggs a day and is in good health.

owsley stanley ate this way for over 47 years.. nothing but meat.. no veggies at all!

I know about 7 other people who have eaten this way for decades who are anywhere from 40 to 60 years old.

I dont need much protein.. hell you can survive on no protein and just fat alone for months.. you cannot, however, live on protein alone for very long at all.. protein can be toxic.. I only eat about 20 to 30 percent protein and the rest of my calories is from fat

if fat was not important to us then there would be no purpose for pemmican which played a big part in the fur trade. it was about 60 percent fat.

It's quite easy to see you're young, plenty of energy and passion, but you aren't thinking everything through.

Of those 120,000 plants that are edible, you'll only find about 1000 in markets, and only a fraction of those regularly. Veggies are regularly available, if you know where to look, and they don't run away. I don't think someone should eat just veggies, but they're much more than just filler food, they provide plenty of nutrition, vitamins and minerals, and we have a nice set of molars there just for them. Only a small percentage of these veggies are domesticated and farmed. The rest grow naturally, and can be found by any forager. Agriculture makes things like rice and grain possible as staple foods, but there is a large spectrum of plants one can find wandering through the woods.

Our ancestors were called hunter-gatherers for a reason, yes, meat was a great energy source (and they didn't waste any of it) but it was by no means the only food, hell, your whole premise that agriculture is the reason we eat less meat is pretty silly. Agriculture is the only reason you can afford to eat nothing but fat and meat. Inuits do so because they have very few other food sources.

It matters how much water, food and Co2 because resources are not unlimited, there is no where near enough food and water to raise enough animals to feed every human on earth on the same diet you eat. The numbers don't add up.

That's why it's unsustainable, your diet is using way more than your share of the earth's resources.

As for why pemmican is 60% fat, fat is energy dense, and pemmican is trail food, which means if you want to carry 5 pounds of it, if it's not energy dense, it's not going to last you all that long.

 

[Rukind]

It's quite easy to see you're young, plenty of energy and passion, but you aren't thinking everything through.

Of those 120,000 plants that are edible, you'll only find about 1000 in markets, and only a fraction of those regularly. Veggies are regularly available, if you know where to look, and they don't run away. I don't think someone should eat just veggies, but they're much more than just filler food, they provide plenty of nutrition, vitamins and minerals, and we have a nice set of molars there just for them. Only a small percentage of these veggies are domesticated and farmed. The rest grow naturally, and can be found by any forager. Agriculture makes things like rice and grain possible as staple foods, but there is a large spectrum of plants one can find wandering through the woods.

Our ancestors were called hunter-gatherers for a reason, yes, meat was a great energy source (and they didn't waste any of it) but it was by no means the only food, hell, your whole premise that agriculture is the reason we eat less meat is pretty silly. Agriculture is the only reason you can afford to eat nothing but fat and meat. Inuits do so because they have very few other food sources.

It matters how much water, food and Co2 because resources are not unlimited, there is no where near enough food and water to raise enough animals to feed every human on earth on the same diet you eat. The numbers don't add up.

That's why it's unsustainable, your diet is using way more than your share of the earth's resources.

As for why pemmican is 60% fat, fat is energy dense, and pemmican is trail food, which means if you want to carry 5 pounds of it, if it's not energy dense, it's not going to last you all that long.

I agree with most of this post. I just dont think vegetables and fruits were all that easy to find back then. since agriculture wasn't around. I know they were a part of the diet and I am not denying that in anyway. Some times I am sure there was plenty if they found a good patch.. I bet anything they would choose the fat over that, though.

I am just saying that you can eat a diet of all meat and be healthy.. it has everything that you need. We do not require vegetables or fruits. As long as you eat the fat mostly.

It is important to keep fat at 60 percent of your diet. It should be the most important part of the diet.

You are right, it would be hard for the entire world to live off of meat with the way things are now.

As long as i can eat meat I will. I think the day we cut all fat from our diets we will all be dying a lot quicker and nutrition will get worse.

it is not true that vegetables contain lots of nutrients. have you ever seen a plant based vitamin supplement? If so, they are rare. there is more nutrition in meat.

there are lots of problems we have to deal with in the future and that is one of them. I wasn't arguing that.

I dont know why people have the need to prove me wrong about the way I eat. From all the research I have done, it is the best way to eat.

If the earth cannot keep up with the resources then we are gonna have big problems.. agriculture isn't gonna fix that.. that creates a lot of problems with our soils.

also I have a huge problem with GMO foods..

so it looks llike we are gonna be fucked either way and the earth is gonna take care of itself. it will do what it has to do one way or another.

Until then I am gonna eat my meat and if shit gets bad I am gonna be making lots of pemmican and vacuum sealing. hopefully that will get me further than someone who has a bunch of canned food.

I think its important that we learn how to abide in harmony with our environment.. our current social structure is only too continue and that is dangerous. it has no real purpose. No matter what we do, one day all this will be over.. everything.. commet, ice age, sun burns out, etc.. who knows but one day it will be over. but if we worked on a new social structure to live in harmony with our earth we have a purpose for the time that we are here. It seems we only live for ourselves now. This subject is a little off topic.

 

[AndreNicky]

You can always depend on a bunch of stoners to argue about shit they don't even grasp. The ignorance in this thread is astounding. You guys keep arguing your dogma....

You guys restrict your diets so hardcore that they have to be the answer, its classic cognitive dissonance. Granted I think aksalas diet is a lot better(especially if its supplemented) than rukinds low carb bullshit.

Just a little warning for you both, my mom recently got a rare eye disease after following a raw vegan diet for 8 years, I convinced her to start eating cooked food/dairy(it wasn't easy due to her dogma) and the condition literally went away overnight. She now realizes how psycho her restrictive diet was. There are endless anecdotes of similar things happening to others on restrictive diets. If whatever doing is working that's good but don't ignore symptoms because you think your on the best diet ever.