Growroom Electricity and Wiring

[madpenguin]

Here. I found this link I've been looking for. It's a well built light controller if this is actually your ultimate goal. All you would need to do is find a bigger enclosure and put your SSR and controller before the mechanical relay. Of course, I'd keep the controller out of the box but put the ssr inline before the mechanical relay.

http://www.hydroponics.net/learn/grow-light-controller.asp

You could either use the above for all 240v or a mix and match of 240v and 120v.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of those SJO cords hanging out of the box. I'd probably use Bell boxes to directly attach to the sides of the enclosure. They are the square metal gang boxes that have threaded openings. Usually have a gray powder coat finish. A metal romex connector without using the screw on lock bushing mates the bell box and enclosure quite nicely. Then you just have the mechanical relay switch receptacles on and off. No loose cords flopping around.....

 

[cocktail frank]

have the 5v relay control the coil on a heavy duty contactor/relay.
obviously you would have to send the correct power thru the cont/relay to control your ballasts.

we deal w/ those type setups w/ energy management systems that are controlled by PLC's.
industrial manufacturing warehouses, emergency power systems for hospitals and other critical power systems.
we also use alot of those setups in retail stores as well.

obviously not to grow weed

 

[cocktail frank]

incase your interested and i dont know if you have seen the thread,
but there is a great thread on PLC's in the very subforum already.
alot of part talk and even a few programming tips.
a very good thread http://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=99252

 

[-.black.-]

I've decided that for now upgrading to 240volts may not be an option due to lack of funds. The whole reasoning behind it was to decrease my amps. Thus decreasing the overall load on my fuse box. But I wanted to ask how I would go about running a line from a different circuit up to my room. Idk if that's the right term, but what I mean is. The one outlet I have no in my room goes to whatever fuse it does to. Now how could I run up another outlet that runs from a different fuse. Because if I can do that, then I will be splitting up my amps thus reducing the risk of blowing a single fuse. I'm going to be going through and figuring out how many amps each of my rooms uses and what fuses they go to. So whatever one that has some extra amps to use I am going to run to my room. Because my room will be running at about 10 amps. and i've had 7 amps running through my existing outlet. But now I'm going to be runnings 10 amps total and we only have 15 amp fuses. Which is why i want to run a seperate line up there. So if anyone could tell me how about doing that, then that would be awesome.

 

[growclean]

Ok, so I read the first 7-9 pages or so. Am still not sure if I am doing this right. If I buy 10-3 wire and run it from two "joined" fuses that say 30 each, then I am running (2) 30 amp wires into my sub panel right? So now I have 60 total amps right?

If this is a 70amp panel and only has two spaces and I run a breaker that goes 20-(15-15)-20 then I can run all the *regular* lights off the first 20, 4 1000w 240v of the center 15/15 and then all the outlets on the last 20 right? I know that that adds up to 70 amps, but I am not actually "maxing" anything out. So then is it OK?

HELP?!?!?!

Does this make sense? The guy at Lowes thinks I am retarted somehow....

 

[GroDoc]

props for great public service thread penguin. thanks. peace.

 

[madpenguin]

I've decided that for now upgrading to 240volts may not be an option due to lack of funds. The whole reasoning behind it was to decrease my amps. Thus decreasing the overall load on my fuse box. But I wanted to ask how I would go about running a line from a different circuit up to my room. Idk if that's the right term, but what I mean is. The one outlet I have no in my room goes to whatever fuse it does to. Now how could I run up another outlet that runs from a different fuse. Because if I can do that, then I will be splitting up my amps thus reducing the risk of blowing a single fuse. I'm going to be going through and figuring out how many amps each of my rooms uses and what fuses they go to. So whatever one that has some extra amps to use I am going to run to my room. Because my room will be running at about 10 amps. and i've had 7 amps running through my existing outlet. But now I'm going to be runnings 10 amps total and we only have 15 amp fuses. Which is why i want to run a seperate line up there. So if anyone could tell me how about doing that, then that would be awesome.

I'm going to loose you on this one, be warned.

You would need to crawl around in an attic space or walk around your basement to find the other circuit. A non-contact voltage tester (aka widowmaker or idiot tester) will do what you want but be warned they are very finicky. If you only have 2 fuses in your fuse box, then unscrew the one that doesn't go to your room. It helps to have 2 people for this. Walk around with your idiot tester and find the hot wire that leads back to the other fuse. Or if your by yourself, position the tester so it lays on a hot wire, then go back to the fuse panel and unscrew the fuse. If you hear the "beeping" stop, then you know you've found that line.

Flying splices are not allowed period these days. I don't even think the current NEC will allow soldering onto K&T wire along with the black tar tape. That's how they used to do it back in the day. That's why K&T wiring has a thin layer of tin on the outside. Because the solder sticks to it better.

But according to todays code, you cannot do any flying splices (a splice outside of a junction box). Once you find the hot wire, unscrew the fuse, snip the wire, run it into a junction box along with a nearby neutral wire. Wirenut your new romex to this run and then old work a new receptacle outlet to your room.

Dude... Your going to need an electrician. I just feel like I can't adequately explain this stuff to you. You didn't answer any of the previous questions along with posting pics so I still really can't help you any. It makes things alot harder because you aren't familiar with electricity in the first place, so we are starting from scratch and when working with old wiring and old fuse panels, you should really have a basic understanding of wiring systems to begin with if your going to be adding on to or modifying anything.

Let me take some pics around my basement and I'll try to make a dedicated post on how to safely work with K&T wiring..

But, I'm still going to say that anyone running a grow op off of old Knob & Tube wiring is asking for trouble. You just can't be assured of the integrity of the wire. As I said before, in my house, I ripped out all that old shit including the fuse box and updated everything. New panel, new romex, everything. All the cieling light fixtures I pulled down, ripped out the switch legs (going from the light switch to the fixture) and replaced it with 14/3 romex along with putting in a junction box in the ceiling. This is how most fires start in old houses with K&T wiring. That shit just pokes right thru the lathing strips and connects to your light fixture. The heat of the light fixture degrades the insulation on the wire and if it gets hot enough, that 100 year old lathing strips will catch fire.

 

[madpenguin]

Ok, so I read the first 7-9 pages or so. Am still not sure if I am doing this right. If I buy 10-3 wire and run it from two "joined" fuses that say 30 each,

Hold on. Do you have fuses or do you have breakers? They do the same thing (provide overcurrent protection), but are 2 entirely separate devices.

then I am running (2) 30 amp wires into my sub panel right? So now I have 60 total amps right?

Wrong. I just explained this a couple posts back. If your talking about a double pole 30A breaker:

That IS actually a 30A DP breaker BTW, you will only have a total of 30A to draw before it trips.

I run a breaker that goes 20-(15-15)-20 then I can run all the *regular* lights off the first 20, 4 1000w 240v of the center 15/15 and then all the outlets on the last 20 right? I know that that adds up to 70 amps, but I am not actually "maxing" anything out. So then is it OK?

I don't understand all that really. Are you saying that you have a single pole 20A breaker:

Then you have a slimline or aka tandem breaker:

And then after that you have another single pole 20A breaker?

And now you only have 2 free spaces to work with? And you want to put one of these in there to feed a subpanel?

If so...... Stop. That tandem breaker will not supply 240V. It is stabbed onto one incoming phase, or hot leg, in the panel and you will have NO difference in potential between the 2 wires that hook to them. If you took a multimeter and tried to read the voltage between both those wires, it would read 0. That's because they are both on the same phase.

You need to use a Double pole breaker if you want 240v. In that instance, each wire will be fed from opposite phases. In the transformer out on your utility pole, both hot legs that feed your house are 180 degrees out of phase with each other and your neutral tap is in the center. I'm sure that doesn't mean a whole lot to you but in order to get 240v, you need 2 wires that are on opposite phases, and a tandem breaker will not do that.

 

[praisehim.]

QUESTION TO ANYONE WHO CAN HELP !

I HAVE A 50 AMP 2POLE BREAKER, HOOKED TO A 240 OUTLET. what im wondering is, i wanna hook up my sub panel, could i possibly just take out the outlet and use those wires ? i dont know crap about electrical..so if its a ridiculous question feel free to say so..

 

[growclean]

Hold on. Do you have fuses or do you have breakers? They do the same thing (provide overcurrent protection), but are 2 entirely separate devices.

I have breakers, like you pictured. Sorry for confusing the terms.

Wrong. I just explained this a couple posts back. If your talking about a double pole 30A breaker:

Yeah that is what I was talking about. So really I need to run like a double 50 at least then? Or what do you suggest? What kind of wire? I (like everyone I am sure) am trying to do this inexpensively as possible, but obviously want it done right. But some of that darn wire was getting up to $2.50 a foot. The 50' roll of 10-3 I was looking at came out to about .57 a foot.

In regards to the breaker setup that I was looking at putting into the sub panel it was one unit with three seperate "switches" on top and took up a total of two spaces. (This is at lowes) So it was like one slim 20, then a double 30 and then a slim 20 again. They also have this in 15-30-15

 

[Tylor Durden]

"inexpensive" often carries surcharges that are Much higher then what could be considered acceptable for the original project.

While I am not a licensed electrician, I've done a considerable bit of wiring, which has always passed inspection, with comments such as "overbuilt" being used. "Anal" could be my middle name if my wife had any sense of humor

Cut corners everywhere, but not with things that can kill you, burn your house down or both. If the code calls for 10 guage...I'm using 8, if the code allows for 30amps, I'm using 20.

You'll be glad you're not on the edge of safety when a summertime power problem has the voltage feeding your house drop to 100-105, when you did your "calculations" using 125v and figured you could enter the safety zone by a few amps. Guess what?..at 105 volts your cable is starting to glow like a cheap toaster.

I'm the guy that protects you while you sleep, I'm the guy that won't patch an innertube, I'm the guy that forces you to replace a questionable tire, I'm the guy that tosses food on the expiration date. I'm the guy that follows the electrical code when I am not required to.

and most of all...I'm the guy that is oh so happy to see a thread like this one.

No doubt more then a few lives have been saved by this thread.

<salute>

 

[growclean]

"inexpensive" often carries surcharges that are Much higher then what could be considered acceptable for the original project.

Cut corners everywhere, but not with things that can kill you, burn your house down or both. If the code calls for 10 guage...I'm using 8, if the code allows for 30amps, I'm using 20.

<salute>

I get where you are coming from, but I did state that I did want it done properly, just with mind to a budget. And truthfully I am sure that "code" is fine and I doubt that there is any benefit to actually using a larger gauge wire than you need to. That is why they are already rated, they are meant to handle a particular job from what I understand. And I do eat food after the "best by" date sometimes....

Thanks for protecting me while I sleep though, that is cool.

 

[madpenguin]

I doubt that there is any benefit to actually using a larger gauge wire than you need to.

Actually, there is. You'll get less voltage drop because the thicker wire has less resistance and you'll also get less copper/watt loss (energy wasted due to heating of the wire).

Watt loss is hardly worth the effort to think about but voltage drop is a real tangible concern when powering electronic ballasts or inductive loads of any kind.

If you get voltage drop on a resistive circuit then your just loosing light/heat potential and no real harm is done other than that. Running a water heater rated for 240v at 208v won't hurt anything at all. It's just that the heating elements aren't going to be as efficient as they would be if they were seeing 240v, therefore your water probably won't get as hot as it could.

 

[madpenguin]

So really I need to run like a double 50 at least then? Or what do you suggest? What kind of wire? I (like everyone I am sure) am trying to do this inexpensively as possible, but obviously want it done right. But some of that darn wire was getting up to $2.50 a foot. The 50' roll of 10-3 I was looking at came out to about .57 a foot.

All I gathered from your original post was that you have 4 1kw lights that run at 240v. In order to know what size breaker and what size wire to run, a load calculation needs to be done. You need to systematically list everything that will be running in the room. Right down to a little 8" osculating fan. Look on all the equipment. It should tell you atleast 2 things. It will either list voltage and amperage or it will list voltage and wattage.

I need all those numbers before I can suggest how much power your grow room is going to need. I also need to know how far the grow room is from the panel "as the wire travels". That means we take 90 degree angles and such. Pretty much the opposite of "as the crow flies".

In regards to the breaker setup that I was looking at putting into the sub panel it was one unit with three seperate "switches" on top and took up a total of two spaces. (This is at lowes) So it was like one slim 20, then a double 30 and then a slim 20 again. They also have this in 15-30-15

You lost me again. What's with the 15-30-15 thing? Try to use correct terminology or you'll loose me.

A single pole breaker takes up one slot (don't call it a "slim"). A double pole breaker takes up 2 slots but the handles are joined (as are the breakers). It's like 2 single pole breakers welded together. The tandem breakers take up one slot but have 2 separate switches on them so they can feed 2 separate 120v loads.

Do you mean that you were at lowes and you were looking at a subpanel that can hold 4 single pole breakers? It has 4 slots to use for breakers? I've never heard of loadcenters coming preinstalled with breakers so your confusing me with the numbers.....

 

[madpenguin]

QUESTION TO ANYONE WHO CAN HELP !

I HAVE A 50 AMP 2POLE BREAKER, HOOKED TO A 240 OUTLET. what im wondering is, i wanna hook up my sub panel, could i possibly just take out the outlet and use those wires ? i dont know crap about electrical..so if its a ridiculous question feel free to say so..

That's a good one. Maybe. If you can find any slack in that cable feeding the receptacle and pull enough of it out to enter a subpanel, then sure. But that probably isn't going to happen.

I would make a portable subpanel with a range cord coming out of it. Then you can just plug in the range cord and your portable subpanel is hot. We call them spider boxes in the field. Perfectly safe as long as they are made well.

What does the receptacle look like? Or rather, what does the wire hooked up to the receptacle look like? If you have a red, black, white and bare ground then you can make a subpanel to plug into the existing receptacle.

It's totally do-able. post back.

 

[robstar420]

I just got a 1000w hps light the other day and when I plugged it in the ballast hums but the bulb won't turn on. I took everything back to the store and hooked it up and everything worked fine. So my question is what could be going on in my house. Thanks for any help

 

[madpenguin]

I just got a 1000w hps light the other day and when I plugged it in the ballast hums but the bulb won't turn on. I took everything back to the store and hooked it up and everything worked fine. So my question is what could be going on in my house. Thanks for any help

Thats a good question. Don't know. I would probably start at measuring the voltage at your point-of-use receptacle. Is it a 240 or 120 ballast? Electronic or core&coil?

 

[growclean]

I am going to run and take some pics real quick. Be right back, are you going to be around still in a bit?

Thanks!

 

[growclean]

Madpenguin,

First, before I begin... A huge thank you! This is definitely the toughest part to figure out for us as far as the construction of our room is concerned. Building walls, hanging rock etc. is no problem, but running the wiring is still eluding us. I hope that I am using terms correctly below for you.

Here goes....

So here is a pic of the breaker box where we will be drawing the power from:

The pic is a little blurry, but there are a couple of open double pole 50 amp breakers installed.
http://www.icmag.com/ic/album.php?albumid=11034&pictureid=214922

Counting all bends, we will need to run the power about 50' or less to the sub panel.

Here is a list of equipment that we will be using:
4 1000w digital ballast (they can be either 220 or 110)
3 oscillating fans Amps: .54-1.10 Watts: 63-114
4 total fluorescent light fixtures 64w each
1 648w t5 fixture
3 8" Fans that say that max watt is 184w each

So I get 1798w on the 110 side and 4000 on the 220 side.

In the future, I am not 100% sure, but to give you an idea for overkill.
AC 13amp 220volt at max
2 400 watt ballasts
1 648w t5 fixture
1 184w fan
1 Dehumidier 850w
2 pumps about 350w each

So for our extra I get another 13amp on 220 and 3182watts on 110 - That should be overkill numbers, as I don't intend on using this actual equipment right now, but looked up some number and overshot on all the size of equipment. I doubt that we will ever get close to that but I wanted to try to think of everything because I know that there is somethings that I wont think of.

When I was talking about the breakers that I saw at lowes earlier by the way, here is what i was talking about:

But I will basically do whatever you tell me. Just let me know what type of wire, box, and fuses that I want and I will get it done and post some pics!

Thanks again!!!!!

 

[-.black.-]

@mad penguin. I would have taken pics but my camera wasn't working for a minute. But I will be back with pics tomorrow. I looked up on knob and tube wiring and haven't seen anything like it at my house. But idk. I will have pics. I think i may have found some "knobs" running along my basement ceiling. But they are vacant and no cords are running through them. But anyway I will bring back pics.

And what i meant in my last post was. What I wanted to do was. Take one outlet that runs on a different fuse then the one I am already running on, and tap into that outlet and run the new outlet up to my room. Thus splitting up my amperage. And I wanted to know what the best way to do that was. I've heard of the "pigtail" method, but wasn't sure if that was safe or how any of this works. I have an outlet the runs on the opposite side of a wall that happens to be the inside of my closet. I'm going to map out the aprox. location of the outlet from the attic and drill a hole and run the line down. Now if everything is correct I can cut a hole into the wall in my closet and wire up into the existing outlet. Does this sound like a reasonable idea?


P.S: Sry if any of my post are really long, i'm usually really baked when I come to this site. but I really do appreciate the help. I just want to run a safe operation.