Gorilla Glue #4

[Seaf0ur]

my last gg4 run I had 3 outa 7 with longer nodes. I didn't know what was going on, the smell was even slightly different and the ones with shorter nodes didn't fox tail as much and yielded just SLIGHTLY more, but the longer node ones were more frosty. off same mother. I think some strains have variation per branch, maybe cuz its such a hybred, its adapted different phenotypes in cuttings to insure survival. plants evolve faster then most other life I think.

this goes along with what I was saying about pakololofrompnw's variegated and non-variegated plants... If everything was equal, some variegation should present itself in the all-green plants...
Therefore, I do not believe all clones are equal.
I used to just clone whatever larfy branches were gonna be useless thinking "whats the difference"...
Now, I'm inclined to think there is a difference and this could be where "genetic drift" comes from...

My current line of thinking is that you should only take cuts from the stronger robust branches.

 

[Hammerhead]

My 1st run did not look like what she does now. Every run since then has the same look. I don't take cuts from plants that are less then 30 days old. All have been from the bottom..

 

[Jbomber79]

shit is deep!

how many growers use mother plants still?

I have seen this in the past but I have found little research to help me identify why it's happening.. I have had it happen in several strains...

 

[LyryC]

Help please

Help please

Rust or SEVERE Calcium deficiency?

I got a flowering plant that looks real bad and could use some opinions on the matter.

pardon the interruption

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

I wish someone would send a "dudded" cut for testing. Maybe we will find out what it is that way.
If you find an "oddball" cutting, try and have it tested if you can. I say that having no idea how much a full spectrum of testing would cost....

just got an email that an oddball cut is on the road finally. the only person that can fuck this up is the person that is currently driving here with it, me, and the lab at this point. fingers crossed.
a concerned and knowledgeable member who for various reasons couldnt get the test done but was able to get it to me. handed it off to someone on their way here as we speak. sample in hand by tomorrow and off to the lab in the morning. im going to run the following tests.
tmv
phytoplasma
verticilium
fusarium
and anything else they suggest.
im open to suggestions.
classic dud symptoms as discussed in D.I.C.K. thread.
this is a classic original o.g. cut so it fits the m.o..

50 bucks although i think thats per test.
on a side note im going to go on my assumption that it is likely phytoplasma. (not claiming to know that its just my best guess. who the fuck knows. honestly i hope im wrong in favor of a much more manageable pathology.)

if i can get a cutting going from the sample i am going to try the protocol in this paper.

http://www.bulletinofinsectology.org/pdfarticles/vol60-2007-315-316gribaudo.pdf

if this proves effective by proof of a follow up assay and test grow ill be very pleased to announce my new cutting. if not ill be at least past this hypothesis and can move on from having a wrong theory going so as to move onto the next one.

the beauty of this protocol is that its likey to get rid of most pathogens and viruses as this is a fairly rigorous method.tissue culture alone can rid alot of stuff. microtip culture can get rid of most viruses and then this is just a little more intense.

there are countless "ifs" in my plan. im more likely to fail in all accounts than succeed. so haters and dud naysayers prepare you "i told you so speaches".

everyone else, wish me luck its going to take more effort than i have to spare at the moment. im learning as i go. im not anything close to a real scientist i just play one on the forums. all of my knowledge and experience in biotech magic has been acquired fairly recently.but i just found out my latest attempt at tissue culturing was a success.

 

[RetroGrow]

just got an email that an oddball cut is on the road finally. the only person that can fuck this up is the person that is currently driving here with it, me, and the lab at this point. fingers crossed.
a concerned and knowledgeable member who for various reasons couldnt get the test done but was able to get it to me. handed it off to someone on their way here as we speak. sample in hand by tomorrow and off to the lab in the morning. im going to run the following tests.
tmv
phytoplasma
verticilium
fusarium
and anything else they suggest.
im open to suggestions.
classic dud symptoms as discussed in D.I.C.K. thread.
this is a classic original o.g. cut so it fits the m.o..

50 bucks although i think thats per test.
on a side note im going to go on my assumption that it is likely phytoplasma. (not claiming to know that its just my best guess. who the fuck knows. honestly i hope im wrong in favor of a much more manageable pathology.)

if i can get a cutting going from the sample i am going to try the protocol in this paper.

http://www.bulletinofinsectology.org/pdfarticles/vol60-2007-315-316gribaudo.pdf

if this proves effective by proof of a follow up assay and test grow ill be very pleased to announce my new cutting. if not ill be at least past this hypothesis and can move on from having a wrong theory going so as to move onto the next one.

the beauty of this protocol is that its likey to get rid of most pathogens and viruses as this is a fairly rigorous method.tissue culture alone can rid alot of stuff. microtip culture can get rid of most viruses and then this is just a little more intense.

there are countless "ifs" in my plan. im more likely to fail in all accounts than succeed. so haters and dud naysayers prepare you "i told you so speaches".

everyone else, wish me luck its going to take more effort than i have to spare at the moment. im learning as i go. im not anything close to a real scientist i just play one on the forums. all of my knowledge and experience in biotech magic has been acquired fairly recently.but i just found out my latest attempt at tissue culturing was a success.

That's good. The only thing is, that cut is not from SourDubb line, so we will still not know what is causing that particular problem.
I'm guessing it is TMV or another virus, as some samples have already tested positive for TMV, including OGs.

Note the symptoms of plants that say "not detected".
I'm guessing they only tested for TMV, and not any of the other stuff.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

Just because something dudding has tmv doesn't confirm it is the cause unless we never find this condition in the confirmed absence of tmv. Tmv was on those cuts. maybe it was that which caused it. Maybe not. Just like if there is phytoplAsma it will only tell us that in this case of dudding this and that, were and weren't present. We need more tests but with growing tolerance and labs participation being accessible to more and more people, coupled
with an apparent trend of this phenomena being on the increase, I think we will start being able to make some conclusions. Soon probably. hopefully about which pathogens are always present and which ones are not. Also if we find a pathogen in a dud and are able to clear it and the dud responds that will be another clue. Maybe we advance to a theory worth testing from these hypothetical causes.

As for whether or not it's the same type of dud. I'm personally of the opinion it's the same. I won't bother arguing about why until I have them both in hand but I will say this dud I'm testing matches the dud symptoms from la cuts of gg. We know with both the sour dub and the gg dudding, the tendency passed to other cuts. it stands to reason other strains out there may have the same exact problem.....maybe. Maybe it has nothing to do with the coincidental lineage. Maybe it just shows better in certain seedlines families.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

im going to copy and paste this to the dud thread. lets not litter this page with anymore dud topcs. sorry for hijacking the thread again with this topic which really only happens to relate to it by it having been one of the most famous cases so far. i dont personally think its a gg issue. i posted it here because there is a lot of crossover of interest and discussion. see you two forums down the street, on the left downstairs in the infirmary. ill be there all week hashing out a plan of action if anyone wants to discuss. nite nite gluesters.

 

[GET MO]

this last run I took a few cuts from every plant and numbered um. something similar happened to a friend of mine when he was growing affgooy, he would always take a few cuts from each n then flower, veg and repeat. we both noticed from his cuts some would have monster yields while some not so much. genetic drift? hell if I know, but ima keep the heavy weights of this run and one of the ones from the weakest link n see if it is continuously from the same plant or if it is a coincidence.

 

[Crooked8]

Papaduc, do a little research before you make such judgements. Look at the icmag master growers who have had this issue. Look at where it has effected people. It is a phenomenon. Just because you havent experienced it doesnt mean youre immune or above those who have. Suspecting everone just had N toxicity is unfathomable. EXPERT og growers and breeders have had duddage. Im not hating on you just saying you should cruise some dud threads before you make claims that everyone could be making an amateur mistake.

 

[OvergrowDaWorld]

this last run I took a few cuts from every plant and numbered um. something similar happened to a friend of mine when he was growing affgooy, he would always take a few cuts from each n then flower, veg and repeat. we both noticed from his cuts some would have monster yields while some not so much. genetic drift? hell if I know, but ima keep the heavy weights of this run and one of the ones from the weakest link n see if it is continuously from the same plant or if it is a coincidence.

Ive been saying this for years on ICMAG. Any and every strain will do this.
It all depends on which branch is cut for the clone.
The strain will mutate abit with dif results.
People will argue with me till they blue in the face that this aint true but Ive seen it every single clone run with every strain Ive ever run. Glad you noticed as well.

 

[Crooked8]

Overgrow. Weve discussed this before, a dudded mom will give duds from tops or bottoms. A healthy mom should give the same results pheno typically whether it is a clone from a lower branch or a terminal. Ive been through it many times.

 

[Crooked8]

At least thats been my consistent experience.

 

[OvergrowDaWorld]

I took cuts from the same plant of GG#4.
I have 2 different type clones. 1 thats taller, thinner, with bigger buds.
1 thats shorter, thicker, with smaller buds.
Not 1 GG#4 mother plant I have is a dud. Different branches taken for cuts, will give similar results, but not exact duplicates of the original sometimes. Every strain Ive ever grown does this. Different branches may have different hormone levels in them maybe? IDK?
But I do know what Ive experienced every single grow Ive ever did.
People prob wouldnt even notice it normally. I do.

The only reason to even mention this is so a grower can choose the right clone to use as a mother plant.
Do I want the tall plant with bigger buds, or the shorter, wider, thicker one with abit wispier buds, for the next grow?
I always save a couple different cuts from the same plant, and wont pick which clone to keep until after a few runs with them.
Even though all 27x GG#4's I have, in and out, are from 3 dif cuts off the same plant, they all exhibited abit dif growth structures.
Even outside.
I mark then as such when I take cuts and grow them out:

Plant #3 - cuts a, b, c, d
Plant #2 - cuts a, b, c, d
Plant #7 - cuts a, b, c, d

So if plant 2c is the best one, for whatever reason, thats the cutting I use as a clone mother for the next run.

 

[papaduc]

i see what ya did there.... except it's not a myth, and without any firsthand experience of dudds then i realistically can't comprehend on why your so quick to call many people that have experienced this phenomenon first hand liars when there are multiple instances of only a single branch going dudd in an entire room, and many reputable people stating these claims with pics to prove it. dudds show up in veg also, you may know this if you have ever personally experienced it. I personally don't comment on things I have no experience with based on speculation alone...also the excess nitrogen comment is debunked by the fact that everything receives the same feed yet only one plant goes dudd? how so when it's exact genetic match is directly next to it and flourishing?

Its to easy to play arm chair quarterback when you've never been in the game

unless you experience it, you will continue to be in denial
thats pretty much the bottom line with dudds.

Dusty, i think at this point it is "grower's error" that is compounding and spreading the problem en masse, across the country. i'll raise my hand...


and speaking of testing...

a member (we solidarity) on another site sent some stuff in for testing but results will take a month or something to be ready for analysis. i could be wrong but i think its about time to ring the bell.



aloha

Papaduc, do a little research before you make such judgements. Look at the icmag master growers who have had this issue. Look at where it has effected people. It is a phenomenon. Just because you havent experienced it doesnt mean youre immune or above those who have. Suspecting everone just had N toxicity is unfathomable. EXPERT og growers and breeders have had duddage. Im not hating on you just saying you should cruise some dud threads before you make claims that everyone could be making an amateur mistake.

I thought it was obvious I was joking in my reply to whadeez. I'll have to make it more so next time.

Based on what I said to dank frank, it's obvious I'm open minded to the possibility that there is something wrong with the specific cuts you are dealing with.

But I do reserve the right to be skeptical and have my own opinion. You're American right? Don't you agree with free speech and freedom to think and speculate?

The only two cases I've pointed out which I think are nitrogen toxicity are kushconnoisseur and stormshadow.

You're talking about experienced growers, well I'm an experienced grower myself and I'm asking you how you can look at those two cases and not see what is an obvious problem with either N toxicity, or overfeeding in general.

Look further into both those cases before you make snap judgements regarding what I'm saying about them. And if you want my opinion on this dud thing, look at my posts before that.

I am skeptical. I admit that. I am not dismissing anything out of hand. I'm not ignorant and I wouldn't do that. But because I'm not ignorant and because I like to remain open minded with regards the possibility of things, I am not going to believe that what is occurring is a rare genetic phenomenon which I, or anyone I know, have never seen once. Ever.

If this was a thread about ghosts, would I be equally unwelcome to stress the point that it might have been something more logical which could explain it?

I believe so many malpractices are a common part of indoor cannabis cultivation, and I believe this because a lot of people who do this have no previous gardening experience.

You only have to look at the market. I mean step back for a minute and just analyse the fucking nutrient market and then think to yourself, why?

Would these products be pushed onto the gardeners doing the flower shows?

Can you see monty don promoting the next bottle of magic potion bullshit with a garbage pail kid sticker on the front on the next episode of gardener's world?

No. Because they're not aimed at kids with no general horticultural knowledge whatsoever who are sold on gimmicks.

And why am I making this point?
Because you can apply this point to every single aspect of indoor marijuana horticulture.

On this site somewhere is a guide to keeping bonsai mother plants. It's written by one of the most knowledgeable growers I've spoken to online. His name is Oldtimer1.

In relation to potting up practices, using perlite etc, he was talking about the culture of cannabis growing in the states and how it started out.

Back in the day when people started growing their own herb, they had no knowledge of basic gardening, and it reflected in how they started their seeds.
What people would do is take a massive pot of dirt and stick the seed in the middle.
The seed would dry out too quickly because of the surrounding dirt, so they soaked the whole pot. But then the soil turned anaerobic and stale and the seed would usually rot. To combat this they added perlite, then more perlite... and more. Until the seedling could be watered without rotting. What they ended up with was a massive pot of mostly perlite with a tiny seed in the middle.

They had no concept of the idea of potting up, a basic gardening practice which had already been in practice in the UK and elsewhere for a long time.

Slowly, but surely, people began to cotton onto to the fact that this was obviously the way to go.

Now you won't see many people starting seeds that way without someone popping in and telling them `hey, that's too big a pot`...

It took a long time. That was more than a generation ago.

Now, calmag has replaced perlite. And fulvic, humic, enzyme, vitamin b, carbs, amino acid, bacteria, silicon... have replaced basic plant food.

Go to the sick plant forum. See how many pages you can look through before a miscalcuation of calcium deficiency is diagnosed. And I'm not talking newbs either. I've seen enough so called vets on here making bad and wrong diagnosis of magnesium and calcium deficiency, in fact it's become part of your general culture over there to apply these two things to your daily schedule. In the uk you might not be able to find a grower who's ever seen a bottle.

Is the water so much different?
Or is it a matter of basic practice and where, or rather who, we get our information from?

Ask yourself, and be honest. Be as open minded and critical as you're asking me to be.

In fact go to the flower shots forum.
If you say you know what N toxicity/overfert looks like, you will find a shot on nearly every page, and I'm not exaggerating. Maybe more than one per page.

I've got one cut now out of 15 which sprouted massive long internodes and stretched up like strings of spaghetti. Why did the others not do this but that one did?

I'll tell you why.

When a clone takes root, it's above ground growth is almost like a frame, stuck in stasis. At a certain point, it resumes growth, safe that it has a certain amount of roots to sustain itself.

If, at the point when it resumes growth, the cut is fresh and green, the clone can resume growth like it would if it was still connected to the mother plant.

But if the growth which is already there has lignified, what essentially happens is the new shoot is almost a separate growth emerging from a piece of woody bark. In that case you will see shoots spring from it just like they would a revegging clone.

If you take a fully formed bud and you root it, like I have here https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=263772 what emerges is a spindly little shoot which has no connection to where it came from other than that it is attached. The bud itself is no longer alive and will die off. Unless you've seen it or have experience of doing this you will have no idea what I am talking about.

With those cuts you are talking about which stretch further than the others, if you cut them right back to a nice healthy shoot, and hit them with proper light, I will almost guarantee the resultant growth will be much stronger than what was there before.

Is this because it went through and came back out of a genetic trance? Or is it something explainable by basic plant physiology?
It's a physiological response you can disregard to call it a dud if you want. But it's one which I am well familiar with and am absolutely certain has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

We can all believe what we want at the end of the day, and I am definitely not going to be swayed by public opinion which I see first hand on a daily basis every time I log onto these boards is wrong a lot of the time.

You can bang on all you want about why I should listen but first you need to address the very prevalent errors which are a significant part of the community. When people understand about general gardening and understand techniques and principles to navigate basic situations, then, and only then, can you expect people with that knowledge to put faith in their judgement.

But while there are so many completely fucked up if not at least a little dodgy practices going on, it's hard for me to discount the possibility that something else might be wrong. I would be stupid and blind ignorant to do so based on the evidence on these boards.

 

[milkyjoe]

Bravo papaduc. Well said

 

[Yes4Prop215]

all this dud and genetic drift talk is scaring me…

str8flame and mine/unknownprophet's last round of GG4 came out different than OGorganic and JWs runs that i saw in vegas…

more light green, reddish brown hairs, almost a light hazy kind of feel to the nugs. i was kind of surprised…had similar smell though. maybe Mills just produces it differently or maybe a little heat stress, not sure.

I'm about to plug 20kw with GG4 so i guess i will see first hand…I've been taking cuts off all of my outdoor plants and not numbering them so hopefully i won't get a bunch of different stuff.

 

[Big D]

This is one complicated cut.

 

[Storm Shadow]

all this dud and genetic drift talk is scaring me…

str8flame and mine/unknownprophet's last round of GG4 came out different than OGorganic and JWs runs that i saw in vegas…

more light green, reddish brown hairs, almost a light hazy kind of feel to the nugs. i was kind of surprised…had similar smell though. maybe Mills just produces it differently or maybe a little heat stress, not sure.

I'm about to plug 20kw with GG4 so i guess i will see first hand…I've been taking cuts off all of my outdoor plants and not numbering them so hopefully i won't get a bunch of different stuff.

Yes Sirrrrr... those are DUD like Attributes Ive seen as well b4

Remember How this new enemy can live inside of the plant for quite sometime b4 it decides to play Peek A Boo....

People are in Denial over this... for whatever reason... Growers think that any problem cannabis has cannot be one that's new and evolving ... Sounds pretty closed minded

This Has all to do with Things you cant see and ZERO GROWER ERROR ... The people who will understand this problem the best ..are people who've bought cuts from P.O. over the years..

I wish one of the owners like Z would chime in on this topic.... His genetics have been playing Transformer ever since this problem popped up...

Nitrogen toxicity ... That's an insult to even suggest that....

 

[Backyard Farmer]

Well said

I thought it was obvious I was joking in my reply to whadeez. I'll have to make it more so next time.

Based on what I said to dank frank, it's obvious I'm open minded to the possibility that there is something wrong with the specific cuts you are dealing with.

But I do reserve the right to be skeptical and have my own opinion. You're American right? Don't you agree with free speech and freedom to think and speculate?

The only two cases I've pointed out which I think are nitrogen toxicity are kushconnoisseur and stormshadow.

You're talking about experienced growers, well I'm an experienced grower myself and I'm asking you how you can look at those two cases and not see what is an obvious problem with either N toxicity, or overfeeding in general.

Look further into both those cases before you make snap judgements regarding what I'm saying about them. And if you want my opinion on this dud thing, look at my posts before that.

I am skeptical. I admit that. I am not dismissing anything out of hand. I'm not ignorant and I wouldn't do that. But because I'm not ignorant and because I like to remain open minded with regards the possibility of things, I am not going to believe that what is occurring is a rare genetic phenomenon which I, or anyone I know, have never seen once. Ever.

If this was a thread about ghosts, would I be equally unwelcome to stress the point that it might have been something more logical which could explain it?

I believe so many malpractices are a common part of indoor cannabis cultivation, and I believe this because a lot of people who do this have no previous gardening experience.

You only have to look at the market. I mean step back for a minute and just analyse the fucking nutrient market and then think to yourself, why?

Would these products be pushed onto the gardeners doing the flower shows?

Can you see monty don promoting the next bottle of magic potion bullshit with a garbage pail kid sticker on the front on the next episode of gardener's world?

No. Because they're not aimed at kids with no general horticultural knowledge whatsoever who are sold on gimmicks.

And why am I making this point?
Because you can apply this point to every single aspect of indoor marijuana horticulture.

On this site somewhere is a guide to keeping bonsai mother plants. It's written by one of the most knowledgeable growers I've spoken to online. His name is Oldtimer1.

In relation to potting up practices, using perlite etc, he was talking about the culture of cannabis growing in the states and how it started out.

Back in the day when people started growing their own herb, they had no knowledge of basic gardening, and it reflected in how they started their seeds.
What people would do is take a massive pot of dirt and stick the seed in the middle.
The seed would dry out too quickly because of the surrounding dirt, so they soaked the whole pot. But then the soil turned anaerobic and stale and the seed would usually rot. To combat this they added perlite, then more perlite... and more. Until the seedling could be watered without rotting. What they ended up with was a massive pot of mostly perlite with a tiny seed in the middle.

They had no concept of the idea of potting up, a basic gardening practice which had already been in practice in the UK and elsewhere for a long time.

Slowly, but surely, people began to cotton onto to the fact that this was obviously the way to go.

Now you won't see many people starting seeds that way without someone popping in and telling them `hey, that's too big a pot`...

It took a long time. That was more than a generation ago.

Now, calmag has replaced perlite. And fulvic, humic, enzyme, vitamin b, carbs, amino acid, bacteria, silicon... have replaced basic plant food.

Go to the sick plant forum. See how many pages you can look through before a miscalcuation of calcium deficiency is diagnosed. And I'm not talking newbs either. I've seen enough so called vets on here making bad and wrong diagnosis of magnesium and calcium deficiency, in fact it's become part of your general culture over there to apply these two things to your daily schedule. In the uk you might not be able to find a grower who's ever seen a bottle.

Is the water so much different?
Or is it a matter of basic practice and where, or rather who, we get our information from?

Ask yourself, and be honest. Be as open minded and critical as you're asking me to be.

In fact go to the flower shots forum.
If you say you know what N toxicity/overfert looks like, you will find a shot on nearly every page, and I'm not exaggerating. Maybe more than one per page.

I've got one cut now out of 15 which sprouted massive long internodes and stretched up like strings of spaghetti. Why did the others not do this but that one did?

I'll tell you why.

When a clone takes root, it's above ground growth is almost like a frame, stuck in stasis. At a certain point, it resumes growth, safe that it has a certain amount of roots to sustain itself.

If, at the point when it resumes growth, the cut is fresh and green, the clone can resume growth like it would if it was still connected to the mother plant.

But if the growth which is already there has lignified, what essentially happens is the new shoot is almost a separate growth emerging from a piece of woody bark. In that case you will see shoots spring from it just like they would a revegging clone.

If you take a fully formed bud and you root it, like I have here https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=263772 what emerges is a spindly little shoot which has no connection to where it came from other than that it is attached. The bud itself is no longer alive and will die off. Unless you've seen it or have experience of doing this you will have no idea what I am talking about.

With those cuts you are talking about which stretch further than the others, if you cut them right back to a nice healthy shoot, and hit them with proper light, I will almost guarantee the resultant growth will be much stronger than what was there before.

Is this because it went through and came back out of a genetic trance? Or is it something explainable by basic plant physiology?
It's a physiological response you can disregard to call it a dud if you want. But it's one which I am well familiar with and am absolutely certain has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

We can all believe what we want at the end of the day, and I am definitely not going to be swayed by public opinion which I see first hand on a daily basis every time I log onto these boards is wrong a lot of the time.

You can bang on all you want about why I should listen but first you need to address the very prevalent errors which are a significant part of the community. When people understand about general gardening and understand techniques and principles to navigate basic situations, then, and only then, can you expect people with that knowledge to put faith in their judgement.

But while there are so many completely fucked up if not at least a little dodgy practices going on, it's hard for me to discount the possibility that something else might be wrong. I would be stupid and blind ignorant to do so based on the evidence on these boards.