gibberellin + jasmonic acid = more trichomes?

[spurr]

The Phytotechlab link has an attachment regarding the sale of MeJA...

"This product is for research use only and cannot be purchased for hobby use. The product cannot be shipped to residential addresses unless proof of legitimate research use can be provided."

That's a problem for me and I guess counts me out as I am not doing legitimate research nor can I get it delivered to my house. Looks like I'll be using Jaz Rose Spray...oh well.

Humm, I don't recall seeing that before. I assume it's just a notice, I doubt they would not send it to your house. I used a mail service like MailBoxes Etc. I wonder what "proof means. I will call them this coming week. I have business address I could use, and I can also show proof for legit research (non-cananbis), but I doubt that would be needed.

That company is kind of a stick-up-its-ass company, e.g., they won't suggest application rates of products and they now have the note about MeJA. They always say it's up to the researchers.

You can also get MeJA from Sigma-Aldrich, I do not know if they would require research proof. I see no reason to ask for proof because jasmonates are not controlled nor are they dangerous: http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/ProductDetail.do?D7=0&N5=SEARCH_CONCAT_PNO|BRAND_KEY&N4=392707|ALDRICH&N25=0&QS=ON&F=SPEC

Sigma also sells jasmonic acid and the same jasmonate molecule in Jas spray "methyl dihydrojasmonate".

 

[spurr]

Just go here:

http://www.jazsprays.com/Jaz-Rose-Spray--16-oz-Concentrate_p_8.html

The active ingredient in Jaz Rose spray is methyl jasmonate.

No "proof of legitimate research use" needed.

The active ingredient in Jaz rose spray is not MeJA, it's "methyl dihydrojasmonate" (MDHJ); that is a different molecule than MeJA and JA. MDHJ (C13H22O3) has two extra atoms of hydrogen per molecule verses MeJA (C13H20O3). MeJA is what plants use to form trichs.

I have found zero studies or data showing MDHJ increases trich production, but that is not to say it does not increase trich production by promoting MeJA in some fashion. From Oswizzle's trails and your trial, it seems MDHJ does increase trich production. The fact plants use MeJA for trichs, and that MeJA and MDHJ are pretty close in molecular structure, means there is a good chance MDHJ gets converted into MeJA once inside the plant; or that MDHJ promotes plant production of MeJA in some fashion.

All that said, it's still better to use MeJA than MDHJ, in my opinion. MeJA is much more studied and more well proven, than MDHJ. But it does seem MDHJ increases trich density from your and Oswizzle's usage, that is why I plan to test Jaz spray verses MeJA...

JA, MeJA and MDHJ have some of the same, and some different effects on plants. Ex., JA and MeJA ..."promotes or accelerates leaf senescence [in some plant species] in intact as well as excised plant leaves..." (link), but MDHJ reduces senescence in leafs of some plant species. According to reps I spoke with from Jaz, MDHJ elicits (some) different defensive effects in plants against biotic attack than does JA.

The main reasons I prefer using MeJA is it's used by plants for trich production, and with MeJA one can better control dosage (application rate) than when using Jaz spray. The main reason I like Jaz rose spray is it's very easy to order, and easy to use.

 

[spurr]

Hey OldMan while you were typing that last post I was editing my last sentence. LOL
Yea you sent me that link earlier and I checked it out...at that price how could I not try it! Normally I avoid excess chemicals but I think this little experiment is safe enough. Thanks for the info

FWIW, jasmonates are not inorganic or harsh chemicals, they are natural, AFAIK. Ex., the active ingredient in Jaz rose spray, methyl dihydrojasmonate, comes from jasmine.

...Spurr thanks for the links you sent me earlier

No worries. I am contacting PhytoTech this week to find out the deal, and also Sigma, to see if they have any lame-ass rules for selling MeJA. FWIW, see my post to you above this one, for link to Sigma MeJA.

 

[nvthis]

the active ingredient in Jaz rose spray, methyl dihydrojasmonate, comes from jasmine.

Hmm.... Does this suggest that a person could possibly produce this at home using raw jasmine? Or is some refinement necessary?

Very interesting thread fellas...

 

[OldMan&theWeed]

Hmm.... Does this suggest that a person could possibly produce this at home using raw jasmine? Or is some refinement necessary?

Very interesting thread fellas...

It's my understanding that while jasmonic acid was named after the jasmine plant, because that is where it was first discovered, researchers tend to use sagebrush, Artemisia tridentata, a plant shown to possess methyl jasmonate in leaf surface structures in much greater quantity than jasmine does. Farmer and Ryan (1990) discovered that jasmonic acid, volatilized from sagebrush, could trigger defense gene expression in adjacent tomatoes


"When sagebrush, Artemisia tridentata, a plant shown to possess methyl jasmonate in leaf surface structures, is incubated in chambers with tomato plants, proteinase inhibitor accumulation is induced in the tomato leaves, demonstrating that interplant communication can occur from leaves of one species of plant to leaves of another species to activate the expression of defensive genes."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC54818/

 

[OldMan&theWeed]

Just a reminder of the role of jasmonic acid:

When a plant is injured, it produces jasmonic acid. This acid produces a vapor, similar to the jasmine in commercial perfumes, that is sensed by surrounding plants. They, in turn respond to the signal by producing more trichones as a defense against herbivores.

 

[!!!]

What about deliberately wounding the plant (small cuts on leaves near bud, etc) to have it naturally create and send out MeJA?

Also note:

Increased amounts of methyl jasmonate in plant roots have shown to inhibit their growth. It is predicted that the higher amounts of MeJa activate previously unexpressed genes within the roots to cause the growth inhibition.

I would be careful not to get this on my tray/res when spraying, though root growth inhibition is probably not much of an issue if you're spraying in mid/late flower.

 

[OldMan&theWeed]

What about deliberately wounding the plant (small cuts on leaves near bud, etc) to have it naturally create and send out MeJA?

While wounding the plants (artificial defoliation or pruning) isn't exactly the same thing as herbivore predication, it's along very similar lines. Here’s an interesting article that mentions how pruning may stimulate a response in cannabis:

"Another thing to keep in mind is that there is a hormonal response in plants to being wounded. This includes a growth inhibitor called jasmonic acid. It tells the plant to favor defense over growth. The more you remove at any given time, the greater the response. It is therefore wise to trim the plants gradually althrough flowering, instead of removing all the growth at once. This hormone also plays a part in regulating the formation of trichomes, and that is probably why a little bit of stress is thought to increase potency. There is however a difference between stress and torture, a healthy plant will always produce more bud than a plant that has been severely handicapped."

http://www.weedguru.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=26674

I’m skeptical of this however.

My gut feeling is that while most plants have the ability to warn other plants about herbivore predication by releasing JA, some plants release more than others, and cannabis receives better than it transmits. When I wound (prune) my plants I don’t get anywhere the same jump in trichomes as when I apply Jaz Rose Spray.

 

[OsWiZzLe]

OldMan&theWeed did you notice and nice boost in the how the girls smelled after using Jazz? What PPM did u use on the Gibb? I used around 30ppms and got the insane foxtailing

Spurr ...what about using the Gibb/MEJA combo earlier then bud set to maybe avoid the gnarly foxtailing?

Even if the combo makes the bud looks too fucked up to sell...it makes AMAZING HASH....the BHO i made from plants treated with Jazz/Gibb yielded alot more Oil then the normal looking buds that werent treated.....

 

[spurr]

Hmm.... Does this suggest that a person could possibly produce this at home using raw jasmine? Or is some refinement necessary?

Very interesting thread fellas...

Methyl jasmonate (MeJA) makes up some 2-3% of jasmin oil. 15,000 blossoms are needed to give 1.5 g of the oil (10^-4 g per blossom).

In other words, I doubt it.

cite:
http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/jasmine/jasminev.htm

 

[spurr]

Just a reminder of the role of jasmonic acid:

When a plant is injured, it produces jasmonic acid. This acid produces a vapor, similar to the jasmine in commercial perfumes, that is sensed by surrounding plants. They, in turn respond to the signal by producing more trichones as a defense against herbivores.

FWIW, plants produce JA and MeJA when wounded, but it's MeJA that plants emit into the air. MeJA is more voliate than JA and is better as an aromatic. It's MeJA that is sensed by surrounding plants; and it's MeJA that plants use for trichomes.

refs:


"Methyl Jasmonate: Molecule of the Month"
http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/jasmine/jasminev.htm


"Interplant communication: Airborne methyl jasmonate induces synthesis of proteinase inhibitors in plant leaves"
Edward E. Farmer and Clarence A. Ryan
Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, Vol. 87, pp. 7713-7716
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4170633&postcount=82

 

[spurr]

Spurr ...what about using the Gibb/MEJA combo earlier then bud set to maybe avoid the gnarly foxtailing?

Yea, it would avoid foxtailing but it would make the plants stretch like a mofo. That is why I am trying to find the 'sweet spot', as it were.

Even if the combo makes the bud looks too fucked up to sell...it makes AMAZING HASH....the BHO i made from plants treated with Jazz/Gibb yielded alot more Oil then the normal looking buds that werent treated.....

^^^ Yea that

 

[spurr]

What about deliberately wounding the plant (small cuts on leaves near bud, etc) to have it naturally create and send out MeJA?

Usually MeJA is found to be most abundant in flowers. Productoin of JA and MeJA can come from wounding response, but also it comes from salivation from animals eating laves, insects eating leaves, etc. That said, I doubt you would see the same increase in trichs from wounding. If wounding did work well to induce greater trichs, everyone who does some form of pruning would most likely have noticed more trichs.

 

[spurr]

What about deliberately wounding the plant (small cuts on leaves near bud, etc) to have it naturally create and send out MeJA?

Below are some studies showing JA and MeJA are induced from wounding, but exogenous application of JA or MeJA or MDHJ is the better route for increased trich production (MeJA being most ideal).

Exogenous application of jasmonates has been found to hinder photosystem II and rubisco, along with transpiration and chlorophyll levels in some plants; but those negative effects are transient, lastly only a short time (days to week). Exogenous application of jasmonates to leaves has also been found to hinder primary/secondary and adventitious root development. All those factors means, to me at least, that applying jasmonates during pre-flowering, or early-mid flowering is the best option. I prefer spraying during pre-flowering and early flowering; the former can help reduce stretch during pre-flowering and the latter increases trich production a lot, and probably terpenoid production too.

Spraying with as low ppm as possible is the best goal, IIRC, Jaz spay, when following directions on label, provides around 300 ppm; I could be wrong about that ppm, but I think it's pretty accurate. I prefer using MeJA at~50 ppm to 100 ppm max, but I plan to test using lower ppms, e.g., 5, 10, 25, etc.


"Oligosaccharins, brassinolides, and jasmonates: nontraditional regulators of plant growth, development, and gene expression"
R A Creelman and J E Mullet
Plant Cell. 1997 July; 9(7): 1211–1223.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC156992/pdf/091211.pdf


"Jasmonic acid/methyl jasmonate accumulate in wounded soybean hypocotyls and modulate wound gene expression"
R A Creelman, M L Tierney, and J E Mullet
PNAS June 1, 1992 vol. 89 no. 11 4938-4941
http://www.pnas.org/content/89/11/4938.full.pdf+html


"Jasmonate is essential for insect defense in Arabidopsis"
Michele McConn, Robert A. Creelman, Erin Bell, John E. Mullet, and John Browse
PNAS May 13, 1997 vol. 94 no. 10 5473-5477
http://www.pnas.org/content/94/10/5473.full


"Physiological trade-offs associated with methyl jasmonate--induced resistance in Pinus radiata"
Reglinski, Tony; Spiers, Mike; Taylor, Joe T.; Gould, Nick
Canadian Journal of Forest Research, Volume 38, Number 4, 1 April 2008 , pp. 677-684(8)
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/nrc/cjfr/2008/00000038/00000004/art00004


"Differential Effects of Methyl Jasmonate on the Expression of the Early Light-Inducible Proteins and Other Light-Regulated Genes in Barley"
Inken Wierstra and Klaus Kloppstech
Plant Physiol, October 2000, Vol. 124, pp. 833-844
http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/content/full/124/2/833


"Jasmonates and other defense-related compounds"
Lalit Mohan Srivastava
from the book "Plant growth and development: hormones and environment"; starting on page 251
http://books.google.com/books?id=wX...&resnum=5&ved=0CCsQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[OldMan&theWeed]

Spurr,

Thanks for all the info and clarifications. You're the kind of man (I'm assuming you're male) we need here.

This is International Cannagraphic Magazine at its best.

 

[OldMan&theWeed]

OldMan&theWeed did you notice and nice boost in the how the girls smelled after using Jazz?

Yeah, they stink up the whole house now (problem).

And don't use gibb, it's not worth it.

 

[spurr]

Spurr,

Thanks for all the info and clarifications. You're the kind of man (I'm assuming you're male) we need here.

This is International Cannagraphic Magazine at its best.

Thanks, and I think you the same type of person

Also, I appreciate you not assuming I am male, even though I am. IMO too many men assume everyone is a guy, it's rude to our lady grower friends.

 

[spurr]

OldMan&theWeed did you notice and nice boost in the how the girls smelled after using Jazz?

Yeah, they stink up the whole house now (problem).

Same here from MeJA, that to me is strong evidence terpenoid content is being positively affected. I am ordering Jaz spray this coming week to test it, because it's easier to use and order than MeJA; and from both of your trials, it seems to work as well as MeJA. I am very keen on testing Jaz spray verses MeJA.

Jaz now sells a product called "Rebound", with kelp extract marketed to all plant types, and also a product called "Plant Strenthner", marketed to all plant types. The active ingredent in all three sprays is MDHJ, but I am unsure if the concentration is different. I am going to call Jaz and find out, later next week.

 

[spurr]

FWIW,

Below are the three patents held by New Biology, Inc., that makers Jaz sprays. The most commonly listed effective dose of MDHJ is from 0.15mM to 5 mM (i.e., 0.008% to about 0.8% by weight).

Included within all Jaz sprays is the non-ionic surfactant and emulsifier "Triton X-100" (at ~0.125% by volume when mixed w/water following label directions) and vegetable oil as an insecticide (see: "Insect Control: Horticultural Oils" link) in the form of canola oil (at ~0.5% by volume when mixed w/water following label directions). I for one do not like the addition of vegetable oil in the spray becuase it can have negative effects on leaf transpiration, stomatal conductance, etc.; even though it can help prevent insect attack. The good thing about the concentration of canola oil in Jaz spray is it's the lowest end of effective rate of vegetable oils (i.e., 0.5% to 2% by volume) according to the Colorado State link from above: "Insect Control: Horticultural Oils".

It's important to note that even New Biology, Inc., admits there is comparatively little research done on MDHJ verses MeJA and JA; and that MeJA is the most biologically active of all the jasmonate molecules. That is the main reason I prefer using MeJA, and that MeJA is what plants use for trich production, etc.

In general, the studies that have been done on MDHJ show that it is often less bioactive than other members of the jasmonate family, particularly methyl jasmonate (MJ), the methyl ester of jasmonic acid. Thus, there has not been a great focus on the properties and effects of MDHJ.

(see attached PFDs for the full patents with pics, etc)

1. Methods for Reducing Leaf Senescence Using Methyl Dihydrojasmonate (link)
2. Methods for Improving Flowering Characteristics Using Methyl Dihydrojasmonate (link)
3. Exogenous Methyl Dihydrojasmonate for Prevention and Control of Biotic Attack in Plants (link)

According to the following table, from the third patent above, the ppm of MDHJ when Jaz spray when mixed into water (e.g,. following label directions), is about 339 (i.e., 1.5mM). And 339 ppm is very close to the ppm I calculated from the label directions on a bottle of Jaz Rose Spray. The concentration of 1.5mM seems to be the most commonly listed concentration in all the patents, which further makes me think that the concentration of MDHJ when following the bottle directions is about 339 ppm. The ppm of Triton-100 is about 1,325 and the ppm of the canola oil is about 4,600. The concentration of 339 ppm MDHJ is a lot higher than what I have tested for MeJA, i.e., 50 ppm and 100 ppm. I assume the effective ppm of MDHJ is higher than MeJA because MDHJ has lower bioactivity than MeJA...

 

[OsWiZzLe]

http://www.plantcell.org/cgi/content/abstract/22/4/1143

Jasmonate and Phytochrome A Signaling in Arabidopsis Wound and Shade Responses Are Integrated through JAZ1 Stability[C],[W]


Jasmonate (JA) activates plant defense, promotes pollen maturation, and suppresses plant growth. An emerging theme in JA biology is its involvement in light responses; here, we examine the interdependence of the JA- and light-signaling pathways in Arabidopsis thaliana. We demonstrate that mutants deficient in JA biosynthesis and signaling are deficient in a subset of high irradiance responses in far-red (FR) light. These mutants display exaggerated shade responses to low, but not high, R/FR ratio light, suggesting a role for JA in phytochrome A (phyA) signaling. Additionally, we demonstrate that the FR light–induced expression of transcription factor genes is dependent on CORONATINE INSENSITIVE1 (COI1), a central component of JA signaling, and is suppressed by JA. phyA mutants had reduced JA-regulated growth inhibition and VSP expression and increased content of cis-(+)-12-oxophytodienoic acid, an intermediate in JA biosynthesis. Significantly, COI1-mediated degradation of JASMONATE ZIM DOMAIN1-β-glucuronidase (JAZ1-GUS) in response to mechanical wounding and JA treatment required phyA, and ectopic expression of JAZ1-GUS resulted in exaggerated shade responses. Together, these results indicate that JA and phyA signaling are integrated through degradation of the JAZ1 protein, and both are required for plant responses to light and stress.