Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

[overgrowit]

Im not happy to report that the root aphids in my garden are back. I havnt seen any for awhile but the plants just didn't look right.

So I took out my usb scope and started looking even closer. These ones I found were not visible to me at all without the scope. They are clear colored and super small compared to other ones ive seen.

If i wasnt using rockwool cubes I would have never found them- even with the scope.

I have tried everything under the sun to get rid of these things. I will have to clean my entire grow out and let it sit unused for awhile. Maybe find another place to grow. I have wasted years of my life battling these bastards.

Here is a video capture from my scope.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q89n5WHpum4

 

[MacGyver420]

Im not happy to report that the root aphids in my garden are back. I havnt seen any for awhile but the plants just didn't look right.

So I took out my usb scope and started looking even closer. These ones I found were not visible to me at all without the scope. They are clear colored and super small compared to other ones ive seen.

If i wasnt using rockwool cubes I would have never found them- even with the scope.

I have tried everything under the sun to get rid of these things. I will have to clean my entire grow out and let it sit unused for awhile. Maybe find another place to grow. I have wasted years of my life battling these bastards.

Here is a video capture from my scope.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q89n5WHpum4

this type of root aphid is ALL OVER THE PLACE right now and its super hard to get rid of; resistant to imid among other things;
people have been recommending the met-52

 

[EclipseFour20]

Update....soaking the root ball at every transplant in acephate is working here. No Root Aphids and healthy plants!

 

[overgrowit]

macgyver420, thanks I haven t tried that yet. Do you know of any suppliers?

Eclipsefour20, That good to hear. Are you dunking the rootballs? Also what dosage are you using. I have some orthene powdered acephate but it stinks so bad im not to excited about using it inside. Maybe if it was mixed outside it wouldn't be so bad, but man when i open the can of orthene it smells like a rotten animal.

 

[EclipseFour20]

macgyver420, thanks I haven t tried that yet. Do you know of any suppliers?

Eclipsefour20, That good to hear. Are you dunking the rootballs? Also what dosage are you using. I have some orthene powdered acephate but it stinks so bad im not to excited about using it inside. Maybe if it was mixed outside it wouldn't be so bad, but man when i open the can of orthene it smells like a rotten animal.

Same routine...with 1 minor change--I pour about 12 oz of the acephate diluted solution to the soil top as I dunk the plant.

From my earlier post....

Now...my RA regime with ZERO Imid:
I am indoor, organic based in soil/soiless (custom peat mix) and this works for me 100%...veg and flower. Orthene 97 pellets is the poison I selected with the active ingredient Acephate (97.4% and is $20 for 0.773 pound container at the farm supply)....the maximum rate for aphids on tobacco is 3/4 lb per acre.

I use 50 ml of Stock Solution to make the Diluted Solution in a 6 gallon food service bucket...and based on my calculations, each plant will retain about 0.3405 grams of Orthene (in the soil), which is usually less than 20% of the suggested application rate for most crops.

Stock Solution (will make 60 gallons of Diluted Mix) and can be stored:
1. Fill 500 ml water bottle half full with RO water.
2. Add 54.4 grams of Orthene.
3. Shake until solution is clear then add water to fill bottle to 500 ml mark.

Diluted Mix:
1. Add 3-4 gallons of RO water to 6 gallon bucket
2. Add 50 ml of stock solution (equiv to 5.44 grams of Orthene)
3. Add remaining water and mix well

Soil Dunk:
The objective is to submerge and soak 100% of the plant rootball, the soil, the container, and about the first 1-2 inches of plant stalk in acephate solution for 5-10 minutes. The flooding should be BOTTOM up--not TOP down, it seems that soil critters scamper away from threats in the opposite direction...in this case to the surface and away from the submerged bottom...and rootball. (If the soil top is treated first, critters will bury themselves into the soil and rootball, and some may escape treatment--due to air pockets). For me, I use a rubbermaid 15-20 gallon trash to treat my 3-5 gallon containers and place inside an upside down container to elevate the plant so its leaves do not get wet with acephate (even though the strength of the Diluted Mix is less than the rate which the big guns foliar spray tobacco and veggies).
1. Fill trash can 1/4 full with Diluted Mix.
2. Carefully place container in trash can with Diluted Mix, holding the sides of the plant until the container gains buoyancy, and it will eventually submerge naturally (do not force or expedite).
3. Add more Diluted Mix until the soil top and 1-2 inches of the main stalk is underwater.
4. Wait....and with a flashlight you can see all floating RAs gasping for life. I would wait 10 minutes even 15 mins....(I even did a fatty and forgot and let one plant soak for an hour plus...no issues)
5. Drain....my trick is to do the dunking near the sink and so I can capture some of the good clear run off while holding the container over the trash can (still good poison to use) and then move it so it can finish draining, just like when flushing.
6. After drained, dust the soil top generously with diatomaceous earth (Fossil Flour is foodgrade equivalent and super cheap at feedstores)...it functions as a barrier for crawly critters, helps keep the top inch of soil drier, and the extra silica, calcium and other minerals are good for the plant.
7. Repeat and add fresh Diluted Solution as needed.
8. I do not flush...since the half life is so tiny--no reason....according the above report, "Acephate’s metabolites are very weakly adsorbed to the soil. They will be readily leached but will be quickly degraded in the soil."

Should the soil be dry....I discovered if you "pre-wet" the soil first (watering 6-18 hours before treatment seems to work great for me) the plants seem to absorb less Diluted Solution...conversely, if you want the plant to consume maximum amount of poison--then drench when the soil is dry and skip watering for that day.

BTW...Orthene does have a chem-like odor, but it dissipates within hours with ZERO residual aroma.

No trace of any odor or aroma (I am indoors) after a few hours...seriously!

 

[Hillbilly419]

Put sand on top layer of soil also helps but if what to be done with them FOR GOOD google Greenlight "Tree and Shrub systemic insect killer

 

[jahrastafareye]

sterilizing your soil in a pressure cooker for 10 mins @ 10 psi seems to prevent them from reoccuring imo.

 

[RetroGrow]

Put sand on top layer of soil also helps but if what to be done with them FOR GOOD google Greenlight "Tree and Shrub systemic insect killer

That's imid. Same as Bayer. Worked like a charm for me. Never saw another RA.

 

[ballplayer 2]

overgrow,

My root aphids are back as well (of course, the micro version, ie., the impossible to get rid of fuckers), after my room sat fallow for 2+ months. I did not apply any treatment this round, I was hoping they would leave once there was no food source. I could not have been more wrong. At about 2 weeks into flower my plants quit drinking completely, 8 days in between watering and still not even remotely close to being ready for water. Its over for me.

I have no idea where the hell these damn things came from, but incredibly angry fails to accurately describe my state of mind. From what I can tell there are very many people dealing with differing versions of Root Aphids. Unfortunately, as I stated I have managed to acquire the "micro version". They are tiny, tiny; and whitish/clear.

I have Imid, spectracide/triazicide, Botanigard, and Evergreen 60-6. I may try and give it a go, as a matter of pride, in the future. However, I am not sure. I may just quit for a while, and acquire some beans while waiting. Then, change locations and give it a go.

If anyone has elminated the micro's I would love to know exactly how you did it.

Thanks for the support guys,

BP

 

[shmalphy]

Is there anyway someone who has been following this can summarize? I have read a bunch but this is over 100 pages. From what I gather pyrethrins work, everything else seems to be chemical insecticides...

 

[Hydro-Soil]

Is there anyway someone who has been following this can summarize? I have read a bunch but this is over 100 pages. From what I gather pyrethrins work, everything else seems to be chemical insecticides...

Pyrethrins work with soil drenches twice in a week 3-4 days apart and then again in another week, twice 3-4 days apart.

Pyrethrins disrupt the breeding cycle so you won't see them 'die' just because they come in contact with it.

Stay Safe!

 

[Hydro-Soil]

Same routine...with 1 minor change--I pour about 12 oz of the acephate diluted solution to the soil top as I dunk the plant.

From my earlier post....

Now...my RA regime with ZERO Imid:
I am indoor, organic based in soil/soiless (custom peat mix) and this works for me 100%...veg and flower. Orthene 97 pellets is the poison I selected with the active ingredient Acephate (97.4% and is $20 for 0.773 pound container at the farm supply)....the maximum rate for aphids on tobacco is 3/4 lb per acre.

I use 50 ml of Stock Solution to make the Diluted Solution in a 6 gallon food service bucket...and based on my calculations, each plant will retain about 0.3405 grams of Orthene (in the soil), which is usually less than 20% of the suggested application rate for most crops.

Stock Solution (will make 60 gallons of Diluted Mix) and can be stored:
1. Fill 500 ml water bottle half full with RO water.
2. Add 54.4 grams of Orthene.
3. Shake until solution is clear then add water to fill bottle to 500 ml mark.

Diluted Mix:
1. Add 3-4 gallons of RO water to 6 gallon bucket
2. Add 50 ml of stock solution (equiv to 5.44 grams of Orthene)
3. Add remaining water and mix well

Soil Dunk:
The objective is to submerge and soak 100% of the plant rootball, the soil, the container, and about the first 1-2 inches of plant stalk in acephate solution for 5-10 minutes. The flooding should be BOTTOM up--not TOP down, it seems that soil critters scamper away from threats in the opposite direction...in this case to the surface and away from the submerged bottom...and rootball. (If the soil top is treated first, critters will bury themselves into the soil and rootball, and some may escape treatment--due to air pockets). For me, I use a rubbermaid 15-20 gallon trash to treat my 3-5 gallon containers and place inside an upside down container to elevate the plant so its leaves do not get wet with acephate (even though the strength of the Diluted Mix is less than the rate which the big guns foliar spray tobacco and veggies).
1. Fill trash can 1/4 full with Diluted Mix.
2. Carefully place container in trash can with Diluted Mix, holding the sides of the plant until the container gains buoyancy, and it will eventually submerge naturally (do not force or expedite).
3. Add more Diluted Mix until the soil top and 1-2 inches of the main stalk is underwater.
4. Wait....and with a flashlight you can see all floating RAs gasping for life. I would wait 10 minutes even 15 mins....(I even did a fatty and forgot and let one plant soak for an hour plus...no issues)
5. Drain....my trick is to do the dunking near the sink and so I can capture some of the good clear run off while holding the container over the trash can (still good poison to use) and then move it so it can finish draining, just like when flushing.
6. After drained, dust the soil top generously with diatomaceous earth (Fossil Flour is foodgrade equivalent and super cheap at feedstores)...it functions as a barrier for crawly critters, helps keep the top inch of soil drier, and the extra silica, calcium and other minerals are good for the plant.
7. Repeat and add fresh Diluted Solution as needed.
8. I do not flush...since the half life is so tiny--no reason....according the above report, "Acephate’s metabolites are very weakly adsorbed to the soil. They will be readily leached but will be quickly degraded in the soil."

Should the soil be dry....I discovered if you "pre-wet" the soil first (watering 6-18 hours before treatment seems to work great for me) the plants seem to absorb less Diluted Solution...conversely, if you want the plant to consume maximum amount of poison--then drench when the soil is dry and skip watering for that day.

BTW...Orthene does have a chem-like odor, but it dissipates within hours with ZERO residual aroma.

No trace of any odor or aroma (I am indoors) after a few hours...seriously!

Quoted because it needs to be posted again.

Pyrethrins also work with this regimen.... the key is to disrupt the breeding cycle and then keep them disrupted with a prevention routine.

Stay Safe!

 

[shmalphy]

Ok thats what I wanted to know, thanks that saved a bunch of time!

I can't see any aphids, but the damage is there (looks like mag deficiency in veg, leaf drop, necrosis in flower/ early finishing/ low weight flowers).

I managed to catch what I thought were gnats until reading this, but they get crushed when I catch them, so I can't tell if they are gnats or aphids.. I use promix so I think they would be tough to see even with a 30x in larvae stage, but I looked for a half an hour and saw nothing moving in the soil. This past summer was brutal, the heat and humidity caused stressed plants that got taken over by mites and aphids. I thought the heat stress was causing the leaf drop and that the flying bugs in the soil were gnats. Now I am wondering if I misdiagnosed the problem. I moved to a new house and started over, and it seem like the problem is coming back, but not as bad because the better weather is making the plants more resistant.

I can't see it hurting to use pyrethrin if the problem isn't aphids, also it's good for spider mites as well I hear, so a good thing to keep around. I will report back here to let you know if this fixes it. Thanks again!

Is there a brand of Pyrethrin that is preferred? Most of what I have seen is Bonide, and I have had bad experience with their products. I was looking at Pyreth-it but it is expensive. I was at the store today, and I was gonna get the bayer imid stuff, but it seems like toxic shit. I also have access to anything at this store http://www.griffins.com/pdf/catalog/2010/toc/234-241.pdf, anything that they can sell to the general public anyway, I don't have a pesticide license so I am restricted on some things.

 

[blackrod]

this type of root aphid is ALL OVER THE PLACE right now and its super hard to get rid of; resistant to imid among other things;
people have been recommending the met-52

I'm finishing up with a grow that has been a non-stop battle. I've been dealing with RA's and powdery mildew at the same time and although I made it to harvest, it's going to be a trim job from hell getting all the bastards out of the flowers. I didn't have any idea what RA's were, but had flyers from midway through veg. Plant's were healthy, figured it was some fruit gnat or something...

Skip to week 3 of flower and the flying aphids explode. Leaves start dying off of the soil plants and the crawlers are everywhere around the drain holes. Did some research and figured out what I was dealing with.

After doing a lot of reading, I want to use Met52 on my mothers and for my next cycle.

My big question is, can I use the Met52 in hydro?

I will be running 4 3x3 e&f trays

I usually have plants in netpots containing hydroton. These are supported by resting on a lid on the e&f trays so that the roots are free to grow down into and throughout the tray, which contains no other medium.

Although I would prefer to use the system I am familiar with, I am completely open to modifying it in order to effectively deal with this pest.

 

[analogue]

I use AgSil 16H potassium silicate at .7 grams per gallon (98ppm SiO2).

No gnats.

 

[Green&Gold]

Does cold or frost kill these buggers? I'm in winter now, so it would be really easy to pump cold air into my space and keep it cold for as long as necessary. Any thoughts?

 

[Guest 88950]

^^^^its my understanding that low temps and low RH slows the reproductive cycle of all garden pests.

 

[RetroGrow]

Does cold or frost kill these buggers? I'm in winter now, so it would be really easy to pump cold air into my space and keep it cold for as long as necessary. Any thoughts?

It doesn't kill them, as they survive the winter outside. Definitely slow them down though.

 

[inreplyavalon]

It doesn't kill them, as they survive the winter outside. Definitely slow them down though.

I agree somewhat, but they probably burrow pretty deep into soil for the winter, where its a bit warmer. Just a guess got no science to back it up.
I'd be interested to know if an indoor setup were kept at a consistently freezing temperature for an extended period of a few weeks, whether any would survive.

 

[louie]

I have applied Bayer complete in veg and Spectracide with Triazicide 2x in early flower and they are doing a lot better than last round (I didn't use either), but I can tell they are still hanging around causing damage. I am slowly seeing leaves dye with symptoms of deficiency (mainly cal/mag) and rust spots. So at this point I can't get any met52, I might try a dose or two of pyrethrins, can anyone suggest a brand? All I found at the store was bionide pyrethrin spray 1% pyretherin (not meant for drench, which is what I want to use it for). Also, since I probably won't totally eradicate them this round and see the signs of deficiency (due to the aphids) should I go ahead and give them some cal/mag? I feed with GH flora micro/bloom 6/9 per gallon (wouldn't normally need cal mag if it wasn't for the aphids sucking on my roots).