Free Fan, Save Money and reduce noise massively.

[Ca++]

Okay, a bit heavy on the headline.

Many will know, from posts like the 3~ pumps thread, that motors are changing. Like our electric bills.
A typical 1.2 tent uses a 6" fan, rated around 80w. Costs about 70-120 for a proper rvk style.
The new kid on the block, is the EC motor. It uses permanent magnets, which as an instant 30% power saving. It also does better at reduced speeds. Using as much as 70% less at low speed. Lets call it a 50% power saving over the year.
Now it's only saving 40w, which seems like nothing. It's constant though. With finger math, that's 400w in 10 hours, 800w in 20 hours, might as well say per day it's 1000w watt hour, or a unit. A units is capped at 50p, so £180 a year. Not £360.

If buying a new fan set, that original AC fan priced 70-120 needs a speed controller. £20 if you can stand the noise, but 40-50 really. The EC fan costs more than AC fan+controller together, but you do get the controller built-in.

In real terms, I buy from an electrical wholesaler, and the price difference is about £50. The AC fan about £120 (plus controller) and the EC fan about £220. That extra £50 comes back in 3 months. In a year or so, the fan has paid for itself.

A free fan is good, but oddly, the real bonus to the EC fan, I have not even spoke of. It's the noise. You get the same noise of air being ruffled, but not of the electrical noise. Importantly, non of the vibration. Where an AC fan needs elastic cord to hang it, the EC needs nothing. You just get the shuuush of air movement. Set on low, you can't tell they are turned on, unless it's blowing your hair about.


So that's my money saving tip, to guide you towards the seemingly expensive fan, that will in turn, rock your world with it's lack of buzzing and vibrating.

To set you off, the 'vents' brand offer a cheap one. If you want to buy cash, The usual ventilation specialists have them. Perhaps not your local hydro store though, who just sell the cheap stuff with big mark-up

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Interesting, and thanks for posting it. I'm curious about the permanent magnets, because most people are not aware they are not. Permanent, that is. They do wear out over time, so the question is how slowly and will it affect performance in the first 10 years? (I highly doubt it)

 

[Ca++]

Many washing machines are inverter drive now, and carry a 10 year warranty. I can't say I have ever had a motor suffer from weakening of it's magnets. Even turntables a few decades old, are keeping good time. Even a few percent would be noticed.

Speaking of tack, the EC motors speed control, is literally how fast, not how powerful. So they give a more measured air displacement. Less effected by closing of doors and storms outside. They use as much power as they need, to spin as fast as they are set for.

 

[Three Berries]

Permanente magnets mean just that as compared to a normal AC indictive motor with none.

 

[Ca++]

Fan motors are a little odd really. The middle doesn't spin. Instead, the middle is held, so the outside spins.

What we have, is all the coils on the shaft, which doesn't move. Then around them, the magnets that get pushed round. Nothing that moves needs an electrical connection. The blades are stuck to the magnets, kinda.

These are quiet and efficient, like the 3 phase pumps in another thread

 

[Ca++]

Like pumps, fans have two numbers of interest. The headline figure is volume, while the equally important pressure rating is often not even published.

Lets have a look at some fan pressure numbers. It's measured in Pa in these tables.

I used the same supplier for each table. The centrifugal fan numbers are typical of any, but tube fans do vary a lot between manufacturers. From pointless bathroom ones, to loosely functional.

Lets look at the 100mm hobby size. A carbon filter, with 50mm bed depth, 330mm long, drops about 75 Pa at a flow of 200m3/h.
Looking at the 100mm EC fan, this 75Pa isn't even 10% of the fans capacity, so it's safe to say, this fan can shift over 300m3/h with a 75Pa resistance. This alone seems like over-kill. However, the fan must do more than fix straight to the carbon. There is the duct run out the room, perhaps up a chimney. There is also the unseen job of pulling air into the tent. Perhaps into an almost sealed bedroom or cupboard. Many extractors need to pull air through houses, tent flaps, filters, and then there is the duct run out.
The EC fan can double filter. Where it draws through one filter, and blows out through another. Or, work with 100mm bed depth filters.


The AC fan is the original workhorse for many of us. 75Pa erodes 20% of it's effort, so it can still get 200m3/h through that filter. It can't do a lot more though. Duct runs need keeping smooth and uncomplicated. Air inlets might need there own fans to help things along.

The tube fan. Well you saw this coming. 75Pa is half it's effort, leaving it moving 140m3/h through the carbon. Presuming no other work needs doing, which isn't ever an option. So every bit of duct, or tent flap, reduces this 140m3/h further. This fan is incapable of double filtering at all.

The carbon is actually rated around 300m3/h but they are typically run at 200m3/h. In a hot summer, you might be happy the EC fan can max it out. Not so happy the tube can't do half the job.

$30 separates these fans. The tube has 2 speeds. The EC is variable between 10-100%. The AC needs external speed control.


Most of my fans and pumps use EC motors now. A choice that I often explain in performance terms, but honestly, it's all about the noise. Or rather, the extreme reduction in vibration. Which is hard to quantify. Fans ruffle the air, which is noise impossible to avoid. Though easy to block. The other noise they make is vibration related to mains power frequency. EC motors are 100% absent of this noise/vibration. Mains frequency isn't used to commute the rotor around.

 

[Ca++]

Interesting, and thanks for posting it. I'm curious about the permanent magnets, because most people are not aware they are not. Permanent, that is. They do wear out over time, so the question is how slowly and will it affect performance in the first 10 years? (I highly doubt it)

I have done a bit more work on these now. While the e-bike motors all use magnets, washing machines and pumps can go either way, and the external rotor motors used in centrifugal fans, are not using magnets. Just the usual induction method of putting an eddy current into the rotor. Though in a controlled manner.

My learning curve will probably end, when I do. I have had to wait to get one to bits, to see the exact implementation of the technology available. There will be no issue with aging magnets, or fan thefts to weigh in the rare earth metals

 

[Three Berries]

I had one of those 4" inline jobs at first. I chucked it and kept the cord and speed controller. Next was a 4" axial just on or off. Then came the AC Infinity 4" and 6" jobs. I have two 4" and one 6" and still use the 4" axial around the house.

I'd like to figure out how the AC Infinity power outputs are configured. Really haven't looked into it . But know they can be piggy backed and would like to use the signal to trigger a relay.

But anyway I don't use a filter. If I did it I'd look into an electrostatic one with little to no restriction and cleanable.

 

[Ca++]

Finding the pressure drop of filters is hard work. Many sites have removed the spec, for competition reasons, and basically to sell you stuff that's not great. Like lightweight filters.

I got the 75Pa figure awkwardly, and thought it low.

This is a 30mm bed filter. Economy stuff.

This following plot is illuminating

This 360m3/h filter is clearly there, as the second line. To get a reasonable 240m3/h through it, 150Pa is needed. The tube fan before, can manage that pressure, but not while shifting any air. There is plot of that fan beside it's numbers, showing this. Something like 120m3/h would flow, if the tube fan was on the filter, without any ducting/work. The fans graph shows is, it can muster about 75Pa flowing 140m3/h.


I can see my figures are not aligning with the 75Pa expectation. I'm getting my point across, but I'm doing something wrong. This is not my trade, so I need to pick that apart when my heads clearer.

 

[Ca++]

I had one of those 4" inline jobs at first. I chucked it and kept the cord and speed controller. Next was a 4" axial just on or off. Then came the AC Infinity 4" and 6" jobs. I have two 4" and one 6" and still use the 4" axial around the house.

I'd like to figure out how the AC Infinity power outputs are configured. Really haven't looked into it . But know they can be piggy backed and would like to use the signal to trigger a relay.

But anyway I don't use a filter. If I did it I'd look into an electrostatic one with little to no restriction and cleanable

4 pin molex isn't it? Live Neutral PWM unknown. Changed to a round plug in later models.

Electrostatic is for particulates isn't it?

 

[Ca++]

Cloudline T4 is 350m3/h 223Pa
The pressure drop info is missing from the filters I looked at.

I don't think tube fans can get much better than this brands. However, the situation still stands, that they can't run the filter they are designed for optimally. So inlet fans are also needed, to hold on to what capacity you can. Though needing no filter, most of this isn't relevant to you.


I like the 67 controller. Now the 69, to control more than one fan. Each fan with it's own settings. The 67 is remarkably cheap, and my intention is to wire it to my choice of fan.

 

[Three Berries]

4 pin molex isn't it? Live Neutral PWM unknown. Changed to a round plug in later models.

Electrostatic is for particulates isn't it?

Yes 4 pin flat plug. Electrostatic works on any particles that can carry static electrical charge, smoke and odors included. I've had one on my furnace for 40 years. Use to smoke cigs a lot.

 

[Three Berries]

Another thing especially with the Cloudline 67 is you don't necessarily target a static or constant air exchange. I have the 4" and 6" and have them set at 4 speed (out of 10) for max usually. No filters though. But usually they are running at the 1 or 2 speed reacting to temp or RH..

 

[Ca++]

Another thing especially with the Cloudline 67 is you don't necessarily target a static or constant air exchange. I have the 4" and 6" and have them set at 4 speed (out of 10) for max usually. No filters though. But usually they are running at the 1 or 2 speed reacting to temp or RH..

While your here.. Does that 67 have a way of controlling the RH and entirely ignoring the temperature? I asked AC but shops never really know as much as someone that uses one. I know the 69 offers an idea of vpd and can track that, rather than strictly looking for a temp and rh setting. Right now, I just want to keep my RH in check, and will look elsewhere for temperature control. I just want RH control, with no temperature consideration.


I don't like off site links. Especially to a cult. However, someone has put up pics and their thoughts on them fans and controller. Actually getting a different fan to work on one. I'm not sure I follow their less literal terminology than I'm used to. However http://www.uk420.com/boards/index.php?/topic/418578-ac-67-controller-rewiring/
It looks like under the fans cover, it has it's own 240v lead. As such it can run without a controller. Still looking under the cover, the motor feeds out 4 wires. I imagine white is tack, and will pulse 3 times per revolution. Yellow is the pwm/0-10v wire. Red the 10v and black is negative. Only three of these exit the box towards the outside world. Where I presume they go to the controller. Here they list 3 in a row along the molex. You will find a molex linking up 12v items in a PC. Generally drives and case fans. You likely have one spare.
That fan they use instead of the AC brands own, was voltage controlled. Using a variable on a 0-10v system I feel sure. That doesn't mean his fan isn't working pwm though. I feel the AC's controller takes the pos&neg, and switches the yellow pwm wire between them.

It's all quite standard. Even the colour white on a spare wire, which is only used for rotational information. How is your electronics? You could use a module to convert PWM to 0-10v analogue, then a second module as a voltage controlled switch. You could drive the PWM module (D-A converter) with the pwm from the controller, or the white wire. The white wire is representative of what's really happening. The controller is what it would like to see happening. Thus the white wire knows things like..fans broke.

PWM to Voltage Converter Module 0%-100% to 0-10V for PLC MCU Digital to Analog Signal

The PWM transfer voltage module LC-LM358-PWM2V converts the PWM digital signals into 0 to 10V analog signals. It can be used as signal interface switching for PLC or other industrial control boards.

www.icstation.com

If your good, you will charge a capacitor through a resistor with that pwm. Put a discharge resistor across it. Balance the three component sizes, and the voltage on that cap will be speed related. Use a single transistor based switch. It's time consuming for me though. I would just buy modules.


Edit: This is a tach controlled switch. Shift light. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/327...819189894!sea!UK!0&curPageLogUid=B8V1ZTuYSN6g

 

[Three Berries]

Yes they can target just humidity, high or low It displays the VPD but you have to manually modify to fine tune it. Lately it goes half the day on just temp, then the humidity starts to build so I switch it to a certain % to get a good VPD.

You have to watch just targeting humidity as it will lock into trying to drive it down and you lose temp during the colder times.

Lights off I target 70% and the fan usually runs consciously at 2

Only problem is it's only the fan that you can control. If you could get a 5v pulse out of it you could lock in a relay and drive whatever you wanted to while the command was active.

 

[Ca++]

Perhaps you could use a pressure differential switch. An old combi boiler would provide one.

This one has adjustment, but the outline shape makes them recognisable. It's job is to see the fan is running. In function, there is a diaphragm at the widest part. A cavity below and above it, each have a 4mm? pipe spigot, visible in white and grey here. The white one, connects to the fan at the inlet side. The fan sucks the diaphragm upwards. The grey connects to the outlet of the fan, to assist this movement with some push. The physical orientation of this device can alter the pressure needed to switch it. As can the adjustment. Extra vacuum can be found by taking that vac pipe into the air stream, pointing it downstream, and even flaring it out a little. Or a little venturi action, by narrowing the inlet just before the fan.
I recently fitted a 30w 7" pc fan into a case, using one to detect the fan is running. No effort. Just one pipe in the case, one pipe outside. The case was not sealed, or the fan that great. These are remarkably effective, and should have no problem sensing your tube fan. Offering enough sensitivity to even choose the run speed you want to switch at.
The contacts are spdt.


Thanks for the controller info. It's good to know. I really don't want to be drawing out heat, at the expense of RH. Though I'm tempted by the 69s VPD tracking, and duel zone, the 67 seems like all I need. I think the 69 even controls LED lights, which are another 0-10v or pwm device. Stock levels here n there, suggest the 67 may of even been superseded by the 69. One supplier just sold out cheap. Real cheap.

 

[SamMitchell]

Okay, a bit heavy on the headline.

Many will know, from posts like the 3~ pumps thread, that motors are changing. Like our electric bills.
A typical 1.2 tent uses a 6" fan, rated around 80w. Costs about 70-120 for a proper rvk style.
The new kid on the block, is the EC motor. It uses permanent magnets, which as an instant 30% power saving. It also does better at reduced speeds. Using as much as 70% less at low speed. Lets call it a 50% power saving over the year.
Now it's only saving 40w, which seems like nothing. It's constant though. With finger math, that's 400w in 10 hours, 800w in 20 hours, might as well say per day it's 1000w watt hour, or a unit. A units is capped at 50p, so £180 a year. Not £360.

If buying a new fan set, that original AC fan priced 70-120 needs a speed controller. £20 if you can stand the noise, but 40-50 really. The EC fan costs more than AC fan+controller together, but you do get the controller built-in.

In real terms, I buy from an electrical wholesaler, and the price difference is about £50. The AC fan about £120 (plus controller) and the EC fan about £220. That extra £50 comes back in 3 months. In a year or so, the fan has paid for itself.

A free fan is good, but oddly, the real bonus to the EC fan, I have not even spoke of. It's the noise. You get the same noise of air being ruffled, but not of the electrical noise. Importantly, non of the vibration. Where an AC fan needs elastic cord to hang it, the EC needs nothing. You just get the shuuush of air movement. Set on low, you can't tell they are turned on, unless it's blowing your hair about.


So that's my money saving tip, to guide you towards the seemingly expensive fan, that will in turn, rock your world with it's lack of buzzing and vibrating.

To set you off, the 'vents' brand offer a cheap one. If you want to buy cash, The usual ventilation specialists have them. Perhaps not your local hydro store though, who just sell the cheap stuff with big mark-up

Really helpful advice

 

[Ca++]

UK building regs surrounding new build bathroom/kitchen intermittent fans, state 0.5w per liter. That was the 2013 update. At that point big players like vent axia updated nearly all there range to EC fans. Making just a couple of AC fans for 10$ replacements. Meeting the regs with an AC fan works on paper, but in situ testing (with the door closed) is a fail. It's 2025 when they tighten the demands again. This all leads towards mass adoption and the cost saving that standardisation will bring. These dates have been long coming, so the EU on the whole is likely in step.

Vent Axia are not calling these EC or even DC. It's meaningless to the common man. Instead they have a lower carbon range, meaning environmentally friendly. Or they have the silent range. Selling the virtues that simple buyers understand.

I was recently looking on Ali, and with a bit of nouse about you, 100 notes can get a good fan. Or if you are clueless, it can get nothing useful at all.

 

[WebIron]

Okay, a bit heavy on the headline.

Many will know, from posts like the 3~ pumps thread, that motors are changing. Like our electric bills.
A typical 1.2 tent uses a 6" fan, rated around 80w. Costs about 70-120 for a proper rvk style.
The new kid on the block, is the EC motor. It uses permanent magnets, which as an instant 30% power saving. It also does better at reduced speeds. Using as much as 70% less at low speed. Lets call it a 50% power saving over the year.
Now it's only saving 40w, which seems like nothing. It's constant though. With finger math, that's 400w in 10 hours, 800w in 20 hours, might as well say per day it's 1000w watt hour, or a unit. A units is capped at 50p, so £180 a year. Not £360.

If buying a new fan set, that original AC fan priced 70-120 needs a speed controller. £20 if you can stand the noise, but 40-50 really. The EC fan costs more than AC fan+controller together, but you do get the controller built-in.

In real terms, I buy from an electrical wholesaler, and the price difference is about £50. The AC fan about £120 (plus controller) and the EC fan about £220. That extra £50 comes back in 3 months. In a year or so, the fan has paid for itself.

A free fan is good, but oddly, the real bonus to the EC fan, I have not even spoke of. It's the noise. You get the same noise of air being ruffled, but not of the electrical noise. Importantly, non of the vibration. Where an AC fan needs elastic cord to hang it, the EC needs nothing. You just get the shuuush of air movement. Set on low, you can't tell they are turned on, unless it's blowing your hair about.


So that's my money saving tip, to guide you towards the seemingly expensive fan, that will in turn, rock your world with it's lack of buzzing and vibrating.

To set you off, the 'vents' brand offer a cheap one. If you want to buy cash, The usual ventilation specialists have them. Perhaps not your local hydro store though, who just sell the cheap stuff with big mark-up

thanks for tips

 

[donaldnottheduck]

Many washing machines are inverter drive now, and carry a 10 year warranty. I can't say I have ever had a motor suffer from weakening of it's magnets. Even turntables a few decades old, are keeping good time. Even a few percent would be noticed.

Speaking of tack, the EC motors speed control, is literally how fast, not how powerful. So they give a more measured air displacement. Less effected by closing of doors and storms outside. They use as much power as they need, to spin as fast as they are set for.

In fact, the option is very good. But there are a lot of ways when you do not have to save on a fan. Recently discovered mobilcasino norge, found toppcasinonorge.com for it. I was able to afford an elite device and not deny myself anything. Of course, you should not forget that you can lose your head on this. You need to keep yourself under control.

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