Flowering.... trimming fan leaves off....leaving fan leaves on

[al70]

The whole defoliation thing is not quite understood, even by the people who practice it, in my opinion.

I had a word with some lad on a forum a while back, and I decided to try defoliation. Then, on my latest grow, I did some experiments, one of which was defoliating really aggressively.

It seems some of the advice is not quite right, but there also seem to be really positive benefits, or should I say, the doubts/worries I had were pretty much allayed.

One test I did and which you can easily do with little effort was to remove a fan leaf on one side of a branch, and leave the other one parallel to it. You'll see that this has different effects depending on when and how you do it, and what the leaf is facilitating, ie a bud or a stem.

What I found was that the advice to indiscriminately strip of all fan leaves during veg, was bad advice. Yes the plant will now focus on producing stems, but at a much slower rate.

What I found was that the side branch from the node with no fan to facilitate it's growth, suffered as a result, compared to the lateral branch which had a fan leaf attached directly below.

What I also found was that after a certain point, the negative effect of stripping the fan leaf is lessened, to a point where you can safely remove the leaf without worry that it will impede the plant in any way. In other words, if you stripped the fan leaf just as the lateral shoot was just forming, it would develop at a much slower rate in comparison to one which had a fan leaf harvesting light energy. But, if allowed to grow and it's own leafs to form, the removal of the fan leaf at that point didn't effect it's growth much, if at all, in relation to that with the fan left on.

I found a very similar effect on bud development as well. Bud sites which were stripped of their adjoining fans before the shoots had developed, suffered a stunted start, whilst those which had developed slightly, when inspected later on and nearer to harvest day, had suffered little, if any growth impairment.

It tells me that there is a place for and a way to practice defoliation, but that, just like many gardening practices, it's a discipline and needs to be better understood to see the full benefits.

interesting papaduc, i've just harvested my first grow, done a lot of research before i jumped in, one of the things i researched was defo'ing, so i jumped in deep and never let a fan mature all through the grow, i have a post in the new growers section if ya wanna see the results, the point you made that caught attention was that there is a correct time to start defo'ing, i was just experimenting with my first grow, but would i be right in saying that the correct time to start defo'ing would be a couple of weeks before they're flipped, training is almost complete at this stage,wad'ya think, goodluck all.

 

[Ichabod Crane]

but i also agree with grey skull about introduction of pests to the wound that why i cut my fan leaves half way on the stem or stomata and leave the other half to wilt on the plant. it makes for a bunch of small stem like pieces on the ground but doesnt leave and open wound.

On a large bud plant this could lead to mold in the bud. I have had the small piece of stem get trapped in the bud doing it this way. Before the stem piece could die and fall off the buds completely wrapped around it. Then it died inside the bud and molded.

This does not happen to all phenos just the dense heavey bud plants. It is better on these plants to take the entire leaf stem when you pluck during flower.

 

[al70]

On a large bud plant this could lead to mold in the bud. I have had the small piece of stem get trapped in the bud doing it this way. Before the stem piece could die and fall off the buds completely wrapped around it. Then it died inside the bud and molded.

This does not happen to all phenos just the dense heavey bud plants. It is better on these plants to take the entire leaf stem when you pluck during flower.

Interesting point Ichabod and one that i'm gonna take on board, scalpel dipped in honey, right up to the back bone from now on for me, goodluck.

 

[Ichabod Crane]

Interesting point Ichabod and one that i'm gonna take on board, scalpel dipped in honey, right up to the back bone from now on for me, goodluck.

You don't have to do it with every bud you get just the big dense ones. And only during flower.

 

[Bobbo4200]

Tagged

 

[al70]

I'm with ye ichabod, just being dramatic,goodluck.

 

[Ichabod Crane]

I'm with ye ichabod, just being dramatic,goodluck.

Yes but some people are like I was when I started.

My first run I plucked all the suckers like you do with tomatoes. Unfortunately they were flower sites. Had a few nice buds at the end of my branches.

 

[papaduc]

interesting papaduc, i've just harvested my first grow, done a lot of research before i jumped in, one of the things i researched was defo'ing, so i jumped in deep and never let a fan mature all through the grow, i have a post in the new growers section if ya wanna see the results, the point you made that caught attention was that there is a correct time to start defo'ing, i was just experimenting with my first grow, but would i be right in saying that the correct time to start defo'ing would be a couple of weeks before they're flipped, training is almost complete at this stage,wad'ya think, goodluck all.

I couldn't say for sure when was the best time time to defoliate. There are so many variables relating to your style of grow etc etc, I mean if removing the fan leaf kept the branch short, that might be a good thing in one setup, whereas in another it mightn't. Have a mess around and see what you find out and what works best for you.

 

[EclipseFour20]

I start removing target leaves on day one (clone)...and continue through harvest.

The rationale for defoliation depends on the objective. I am training the plant with "early leaf removal", I am maintaining the plant with "continuous removal" and during last weeks in flower, I am opening the plant with "selective removal" of large leaves to improve light penetration. And...then there is "plant training" (not the same as defoliation).

Cheers!

 

[de145]

Could someone please give us a proper mf side by side ffs so we can all learn something?

Exactly! Until we start to see people posting legit side by side experiments with pictures and weights I'm going to file this under voodoo and magical thinking.

 

[Crooked8]

I would do so if i could afford to lose 10-20% yield. If you try it the way i previously stated its hard to believe the differences. Someone would have to dedicate a light to unmolested vs trained. Not only would the untrained plants be way more susceptible to pests/mold and mildew issues, risking the entire room, but the ones doing this also know they will be dealing with larf and thinner/smaller colas. Its in the experience.... I suppose someone could do a side by side of a plant vs another, but they would both have to be perfectly equidistant to the light and receiving the exact same nutes and environment. Neither plant could have a single pest the entire run. Neither plant could have a disturbed or molested root system during transplant or through the entire run. And obviously same strain and height and width with the same exact amount of tops. See where im going here? Its very hard to accomplish a side by side that accounts for all of this. Even if someone did a light vs another was one light closer to an oscillating fan? Were the hoods the exact same distance at all times? Did tops get closer on one side? Were there an equal amount of tops? The experiment itself could be flawed for numerous reasons. A great way to do one i guess would be to run a light of the same strain same veg time same number of plants. On the same light in the same room. Brand new bulbs both runs. Exact same distance measured daily from the hood. One run untrained vs trained, however, im sure theres flaws here too.

 

[EclipseFour20]

Let me say 2 things....I am an old phart (closer to 60 than I am to 50 years old...so I have been there and done that) and I do not believe in voodoo magic; that said, I am all about quality and quantity (in that order) and if theorists doubt the benefits of aggressive training (defoliation) then I am OK with that.

Call it "voodoo magic"...call it "bullshit"--but it works for me, and I get top dollar for my harvest...that is how I roll. Hard to be both a perfectionist and a connoisseur!

Cheers!

 

[D.C. Denali]

here is what i was looking for on defloliating
i posted this last may

the fact is buds buried under leaves just cannot get the lite the upper parts can.

plants are meant to survive and they will adapt genetically over time to thier surroundings to make the most
of what they have to work with.
just like people, animals and insects.
canabis has evolved over thousands of years to their particular environs from the hot-n-moist lowland columbia jungles
where the famous punta roja *redbed* originated
to the indica hash plants of the lofty hi altitude arid ranges of the Hundu Kush.
BUT!
they all have 2 things in common no matter where they grow and thats the sun/a light source that is constantly moving
AND
the genetic ability to adapt to the conditions under which they grow.

over time their leaves are set in a way to maximize the light they recieve as their lite source tracks across from east to west.
no matter where the sun is at the leaves on some portion of the plant will always recieve direct sunlight throughout the day if not all day long for other parts of the plant.
NOW!
we put them inside with a stationary point of lite(s)
so in order to mimic ideal the natural settings we either have to move the lite source or constantly shuffle plants around,
and how many times have you have had to do that
they don't need shuffling around outside because the sun is moving

so now the lite source being stationary creates a prob in regards to dead spots under the canopy of the upper leaves.
removing those leaves just opens up the lite the sun would have gotten to in a natural setting.

plants have redundant back ups for survival in less than ideal situations.
like producing thousands of seeds to insure the survival of the species!
OR
maybe lots of leaves around the plant in a way as to take optimal advantage of the sun as it tracks across the sky.
think about if we had only a stationary sun.
how and would the leaf structure of canabis plants evolved differently?
I'm sure it would have

removing leaves to adapt and take full advantage of a stationary lite source hasn't slowed the plant down or harm it in any way in my exp. with the strains ive dealt with.
AND.... actually a good trimming benefits the plant as you'll notice a week or 2 after a good defoliating.
IN FACT...
trimming/defoliating is an accepted practice by gardeners and botanists/horticulturists and landscapers to improve many plants and in many ways relating to health and vigor....
to increased productivity,
and cosmetic appeal.

but there are still many that think it couldn't/can't/doesn't/won't work on a plant like canabis?
it is a very adaptable, hardy plant

***of course not all strains may benefit from a good defo and some are best left alone to do their thing***
as I think about it,
we do everything we can to tweak the most from our plants,
from the bulbs
to soils,
nutes, amendments,
additives,
air/Co2... even classical music!
you name it we growers are trying it or have done it or trying to make it batter! right?
Its a constant endeavor on our parts
but to those that haven't tried and won't even consider defoliating is akin to
cutting off your nose to spite your face imo.
personally Ive never seen a plant of mine that suffered any ill effects from trimming,
they always do better!


but again,
genetics/strain plays the ultimate role if defoliating is a benefit or detriment __________________

Fuck. You really have to dig, almost without direction, these days, to find useful information, on icmag!

 

[mapinguari]

the gnome raises a good point, one I've often wondered about: how does the usefulness of defoliation differ (or the motives for doing it) outdoor versus indoor?

 

[Crooked8]

Goldstar for someone using such words you should have an understanding that no side by side with a plant is even possible. Ever taken a phych class? If you posed the idea of a side by side with a plant in any sort of college level class you would be laughed at. No evidence or claims i make can be considered concrete for millions of factors. You dont know what youre talking about and i do. Ive been at this a long time. I said 10-20% increase and i stand by that as my assumption. I cant give you any info that is concrete because its impossible.

 

[Crooked8]

Youre acting like a kid who just took his first core classes at college. You think you know it all. Telling people their information is unfounded. Were talking about plants. "Founded" evidence is still capable of being challenged on so many levels. You know what, since you have an answer/cocky response to everything why dont you explain concretely what happens with defoliated vs unmolested plants? I already explained how such a side by side is flawed and any person with basic psychology education would know that.

 

[Crooked8]

Right as my "assumption" i never said that was a concrete number because of how flawed any side by side would be. All i know is my increase in yield on average per light. Since defoliation its increased 10-20%. I know what i said. Your interpreting skills aren't exactly stellar bud.

 

[Crooked8]

As for the challenging founded evidence, that was my bad. A typo i guess, but i understand concrete/founded evidence is incapable of being challenged. All im saying is founded information is non existant in the plant world. Too many things to make the experiment flawed. As for my education, im not getting into that pissing match. Lets just say ive had and completed child psych, life span psych and biopsych. In psychology they discuss experiments on every level. Ive also had botany and biology. You find it "dumbfounding" to relate "side by side" experimentation to psychology? Wow, you think plant experimentation has no relevance to anything in psych? That is dumbfounding.

 

[Crooked8]

Hey newbie with 40 posts. Read a single thread I've created and page through them. You think i dont understand what a fan leafs function is? Dude, your chin is up way too high. Show us any reason why your information is valuable. Ive proven i know what im doing on here. Your just a newb trying to argue everyones point and without class. You just told people what they're saying is unfounded and absurd. I think you coming on here at all is absurd.

 

[Crooked8]

When i said "founded" evidence previously i meant that anyone saying they had some would be wrong. It would be a theory. Nobody on here has founded info so stop telling people their info is unfounded because its impossible for it to be.