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Florida to drug test Welfare recipiients.

DiscoBiscuit

weed fiend
Veteran
Political elites ride the backs of the poor

By JAMES W. FOX | Special To The Tampa Tribune
Published: June 03, 2011

During a flurry of activity ending the 2011 session, the Florida Legislature passed H.R. 353, mandating drug testing of all adult applicants for Florida Cash Assistance. Gov. Rick Scott signed the legislation this week.

Florida joins a growing list of states that are further eroding the basic liberties of our fellow citizens simply because they are poor. This is both bad policy and unconstitutional. It also reveals the deep hypocrisy of legislators who rail against governmental interference with citizens' liberties while invading the most basic of liberties — the liberty to be free from the government searching your body without probable cause.

For many people, testing applicants for cash assistance for drug use sounds like a good idea. As the sponsor of the bill, Rep. Jimmie Smith said, why should tax dollars go to supporting drug habits rather than to feed poor children?

This appeal is based on incorrect and biased assumptions about drug use among the poor. In fact, recipients of welfare use illegal drugs at about the same rate as the general population. The National Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism found that the "proportions of welfare recipients using, abusing or dependant on alcohol or illicit drugs are consistent with proportions of both the adult U.S. population and adults who do not receive welfare."

Mandatory drug testing is both costly and ineffective. Drug tests cost an average of $42. The Florida statute forces the poverty-stricken applicant to pay this cost upfront, forcing parents with an annual income of less than $4,000, or about $80 per week, to find the cash upfront to apply for benefits — instead of paying for food for their kids.

The Legislature eased this burden with an amendment permitting those who test negative to be paid back in their first benefits check. This does not help the family who had no money to pay for the test in the first place. With 90 percent of applicants likely to test negative, the state will end up paying over half a million dollars for testing, further increasing welfare expenditures.

This cost is especially foolhardy given that drug tests have problems of both false positives and false negatives, and several harder drugs are not easily detected by standard tests. Other states, such as Michigan and Oklahoma, have used well-designed, inexpensive and noninvasive written questionnaires that are 94 percent effective in detecting drug and alcohol use. Florida should follow their lead.

More troubling than the cost and ineffectiveness of blanket drug tests is the violation of the civil liberties of Florida's poor families. No liberty is more basic than the Fourth Amendment protection against unreasonable searches. This is why the U.S. Supreme Court has found unconstitutional mandatory drug testing of candidates for public office, despite the social benefits gained from barring drug users from running for elected office, and why a similar welfare drug-test program was found unconstitutional in Michigan.

Ironically, the Florida Republican Party, which opposes federal health-care legislation as being unconstitutional, has adopted a welfare law far more likely to be found unconstitutional. This new law reveals hypocrisy on two levels. First, if stopping the expenditure of government money on drug use is the concern, then other recipients of public money should be tested. But the Legislature rejected the Democratic amendment that required drug testing of Bright Futures scholars —even though college-age citizens represent the one demographic group that we know uses drugs at the highest rate (about one in five).

Second, were personal liberty and small government really the polestars of Florida Republicans, they would not pass a law using government power to force the needy to give up a basic liberty. The power of government to "buy up" rights is surely one of the main dangers of "big" government. Such contradictions reveal that it is not the personal liberty of all citizens that some politicians favor, but rather the freedom of the political elite to ride the backs of the poor.

James W. Fox Jr. is a professor of law at Stetson University College of Law in Gulfport. The views expressed are his own.
 

DiscoBiscuit

weed fiend
Veteran
State to begin testing welfare recipients for drugs

06/01/2011
By Michael Peltier
The News Service of Florida

Florida will begin testing welfare recipients for illicit drug use following action Tuesday by Gov. Rick Scott that will link the state’s temporary cash assistance program to tests critics say have already been ruled unconstitutional.

Following up on a campaign promise, Scott signed the measure during a Panama City visit that makes Florida the only state in the nation to test all applicants for Temporary Assistance to Needy Families before they can collect benefits, according a Washington-based public policy group that says other states have narrower testing requirements.

The new law (HB 353) requires recipients to pay for the tests and periodically be retested at their expense to continue receiving benefits. Recipients will be reimbursed if the tests, which cost from $10 to $70, depending on who is estimating, come back negative.
Backers say the law will help ensure that taxpayer money goes for helping the family and not used to fuel a drug habit.

“While there are certainly legitimate needs for public assistance, it is unfair for Florida taxpayers to subsidize drug addiction,” Scott said in a statement. “This new law will encourage personal accountability and will help to prevent the misuse of tax dollars.”
Beginning July 1, recipients who test positive for drugs would be denied benefits for a year. A second failed test would result in a three-year ban. Recipients who complete a drug rehab program can re-apply in six months.

In two-parent households, both adults would be tested. Benefits to children could be awarded to a third party recipient, who must also pass a drug screen. The law will not affect the federal food stamp program.

Critics including the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida and Florida Legal Services, which say they will decide in the coming weeks if they plan to file suit challenging the law, a version of which was struck down in 2003 by a federal court in Michigan. During debate, opponents pointed to a pilot testing program in Florida that was shut down in 2001 after it showed no significant difference in drug use between welfare recipients and the population at large.

“The wasteful program created by this law subjects Floridians who are impacted by the economic downturn, as well as their families, to a humiliating search of their urine and body fluids without cause or even suspicion of drug abuse,” Howard Simon, executive director of ACLU Florida, said in a statement Tuesday.

Federal law allows states to screen for drug use under the TANF program, which provides a maximum of $300 a month in cash assistance to needy families. The program, which replaced traditional welfare in the mid-1990s, has a 48-month lifetime cap on benefits.

Other states have studied the issue and decided that testing all recipients was not cost-effective, the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Legal and Social Policy wrote in a study released in January.

Most states conduct drug assessments but do not require across-the-board urine or blood tests. Some require drug tests from recipients who have been convicted of felony drug crimes.

 

Neo 420

Active member
Veteran
State to begin testing welfare recipients for drugs

06/01/2011
By Michael Peltier
The News Service of Florida

Florida will begin testing welfare recipients for illicit drug use following action Tuesday by Gov. Rick Scott that will link the state’s temporary cash assistance program to tests critics say have already been ruled unconstitutional.

Following up on a campaign promise, Scott signed the measure during a Panama City visit that makes Florida the only state in the nation to test all applicants for Temporary Assistance to Needy Families before they can collect benefits, according a Washington-based public policy group that says other states have narrower testing requirements.

The new law (HB 353) requires recipients to pay for the tests and periodically be retested at their expense to continue receiving benefits. Recipients will be reimbursed if the tests, which cost from $10 to $70, depending on who is estimating, come back negative.
Backers say the law will help ensure that taxpayer money goes for helping the family and not used to fuel a drug habit.

“While there are certainly legitimate needs for public assistance, it is unfair for Florida taxpayers to subsidize drug addiction,” Scott said in a statement. “This new law will encourage personal accountability and will help to prevent the misuse of tax dollars.”
Beginning July 1, recipients who test positive for drugs would be denied benefits for a year. A second failed test would result in a three-year ban. Recipients who complete a drug rehab program can re-apply in six months.

In two-parent households, both adults would be tested. Benefits to children could be awarded to a third party recipient, who must also pass a drug screen. The law will not affect the federal food stamp program.

Critics including the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida and Florida Legal Services, which say they will decide in the coming weeks if they plan to file suit challenging the law, a version of which was struck down in 2003 by a federal court in Michigan. During debate, opponents pointed to a pilot testing program in Florida that was shut down in 2001 after it showed no significant difference in drug use between welfare recipients and the population at large.

“The wasteful program created by this law subjects Floridians who are impacted by the economic downturn, as well as their families, to a humiliating search of their urine and body fluids without cause or even suspicion of drug abuse,” Howard Simon, executive director of ACLU Florida, said in a statement Tuesday.

Federal law allows states to screen for drug use under the TANF program, which provides a maximum of $300 a month in cash assistance to needy families. The program, which replaced traditional welfare in the mid-1990s, has a 48-month lifetime cap on benefits.

Other states have studied the issue and decided that testing all recipients was not cost-effective, the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Legal and Social Policy wrote in a study released in January.

Most states conduct drug assessments but do not require across-the-board urine or blood tests. Some require drug tests from recipients who have been convicted of felony drug crimes.


Excellent find...

Cost effective what????

During debate, opponents pointed to a pilot testing program in Florida that was shut down in 2001 after it showed no significant difference in drug use between welfare recipients and the population at large.
 

Cojito

Active member
One side is so emotionally invested they are willing t deny facts and reinvent mathematics to meet their feelings.... I've so far only used state provided or negative side supposition for proper calculations and been told I'm the one leaving out numbers!!! When they are not willing to acknowledge there will be monies saved

but you're not even remotely credible, your facts are in dispute, and saving money is but one criterion. actually, i've been arguing for enlightened self-interest. as a cannabis user it's my duty to speak out against drug testing the poor. and by looking out for their 4th amendment rights i hope i'm much less likely to face a similar drug test down the road.
 

silver hawaiian

Active member
Veteran
but you're not even remotely credible, your facts are in dispute, and saving money is but one criterion. actually, i've been arguing for enlightened self-interest. as a cannabis user it's my duty to speak out against drug testing the poor. and by looking out for their 4th amendment rights i hope i'm much less likely to face a similar drug test down the road.

I think this is the disconnect between some of the views being expressed here..

As I've said (ad nauseum), I believe those are two separate issues. But it seems that a large segment of the folks in this discussion are led by the fact that, "Hey, I smoke pot too."

Yes, we all smoke pot, .. But most of us pay taxes too. If we're so quick to come from the perspective of pot-smokers, why are we not so quick to come from the perspective of taxpayers? That is, concerned citizens who want to get the most return on their tax dollars. ("At what expense?" is another part of the conversation, which I agree with. But not when it comes strictly from the place of "Hey, I like weed too!")

I like to drink beer, but I don't advocate drinking and driving.. I like to have fancy gadgets and electronics, but I certainly don't advocate someone who's in financial trouble to go and make the same purchases. Etc..
 

Neo 420

Active member
Veteran
I think this is the disconnect between some of the views being expressed here..

No disconnect. We just have solidarity in dynamic expression of how a human being should live life under guberment services...

I've said (ad nauseum), I believe those are two separate issues. But it seems that a large segment of the folks in this discussion are led by the fact that, "Hey, I smoke pot too."
Because we as pot smokers and growers know how discrimination feels...And pot smokers will again feel the hard hand of biasses with this policy

, we all smoke pot, .. But most of us pay taxes too. If we're so quick to come from the perspective of pot-smokers, why are we not so quick to come from the perspective of taxpayers?

I doubt if a majority of the growers here pay taxes on ....(Lets just leave that one alone..... :) )
But you bring up a good point on our tax money. This my friend consumes a very very small portion of our tax money. You should be more concerned on how our tax money is being wasted on wars, military budgets, BANK BAILOUTS, 3rd party scammers (haliburton etc) and good ole guberment waste.This is a drop in the bucket compared to the overall picture. Plus...Im a POT SMOKER FIRST and a TAX PAYER SECOND....
BTW.....You should be complaining that Bank of America, GE and other industries paid $0 taxes... HOW CAN YOU MAKE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS AND PAY NO TAXES BUT WE MAKE $40 to $60 grand a year and pay 30 to 40 percent in taxes???

is, concerned citizens who want to get the most return on their tax dollars. ("At what expense?" is another part of the conversation, which I agree with. But not when it comes strictly from the place of "Hey, I like weed too!")

Your are missing the point or its over your head.....

like to drink beer, but I don't advocate drinking and driving.. I like to have fancy gadgets and electronics, but I certainly don't advocate someone who's in financial trouble to go and make the same purchases. Etc..

You are absolutely correct BUT thats there choice, prerogative, and destiny...Once upon a time thats what America stood for.... CHOICE...Some make bad choices, some make bad choices. But its theirs. If we push this on poor people, when does it stop with the controlling? Who makes the decisions? Who draws the lines? You seem to be bothered that poor people can sometime enjoy life little pleasures when you should be concerned on how the middle class is shrinking daily and you might find yourself on the end of that guberment service ...Oh wait never mind... You would be rejected because you smoke weed. My bad.
 

DiscoBiscuit

weed fiend
Veteran
IMO, if one is buying weed on the taxpayers dime, there's little argument. Even though that person is sacrificing something else to supp their blaze. One has to bring in children, (another supposition) to suggest that somebody else besides the taxpayer is getting shafted.

Since many (or all) of us grow, it diminishes cost considerably. Unless of course one is selling and that brings being-on-the-dole into question.

IMO, the two aspects, economic and immoral/unconstitutional are separate yet inextricable from debate, IMO.

Fl has no statistics to show savings. Even Oklahoma:) among others say wholesale testing isn't economical, based on statistical studies.

If you feel we're not advocating for the taxpayer, you may be missing the aspect that we're actually suggesting the taxpayer will pay more for this program, not less.

^^that's an economic argument in favor of the taxpayer.^^

The moral/constitutional argument - I offer that poor people use drugs no more than societal average. If this is true, the drug-free poor person (as much as 9 in 10 people) is disaffected economically when they have to pay as much as $70 up front when their benefit is less than $80 a week. Their 4th amendment rights are being intruded through unreasonable search of their body.

^^ I linked the two aspects to note the somewhat, circular rebuttal between the two.

It's a 4th amendment intrusion to discriminate with a portion of assistance roles. IMO, across the board testing was nixed from the law because...

It's too expensive.

or

The nix factor aka "Rs":D believe that once you're in a particular demographic you're less prone to scrutiny.

or

This is all a first step in demographically scrutinizing folks that statistically pull the blue lever in the voter booth.

or

The tea party is particularly bonkers with "welfare queen" pontification.

or a combination of the above.



Many folks on Rick's side of this issue are free thinking gov = intrusion = bad. Sure would be interesting to see (nothing) more than a D beside his name.:D

One only has to point to the (nixed-from-testing) pharma users (not to mention their nixed/Rs:D pharma users list) to see that the governor doesn't care if a poor person's pharmaceutical expenditures consume assistance dollars, so long as they get their pharma from the right place. (Where the right place is the nation's #1 abuser of above-board/ yeah, right / distribution.)
 

Cojito

Active member
I think this is the disconnect between some of the views being expressed here. As I've said (ad nauseum), I believe those are two separate issues. But it seems that a large segment of the folks in this discussion are led by the fact that, "Hey, I smoke pot too."

ok. without the cannabis reference:

i'm arguing for enlightened self-interest. i value my 4th amendment rights. and it's my duty to speak out against the gov or (people like you) who would infringe on these rights. when we safeguard the rights of the poor we are all much less likely to face a similar violations down the road.
 

DiscoBiscuit

weed fiend
Veteran
IMO, Cjito is right. Disenfranchisement starts at the bottom of the economic scale. IMO, because they're the least capable of legally pressing their issues.

But when voters as a whole get sick of this type of legislation and march on discriminatory and unconstitutional government activity, each and every poor person is the same, measurable quantity as those above the poverty line.
 

dagnabit

Game Bred
Veteran
but you're not even remotely credible, your facts are in dispute, and saving money is but one criterion. actually, i've been arguing for enlightened self-interest. as a cannabis user it's my duty to speak out against drug testing the poor. and by looking out for their 4th amendment rights i hope i'm much less likely to face a similar drug test down the road.

what facts are in dispute?
i site the DCS and readily accept any cost of testing numbers offered!
furthermore i am willing to accept ANY % of positives offered!

lets do the math (as i have done over and over) put the emotions aside and look at the ones and zeros?!?!?

refute my numbers? by all means offer something else?

i accept the county studies cost analysis my only problem (why i called them spin) is they fail to make any comparison to the amount saved!

so again i have been and will be readily to accept reasonable input on the variables, just someone offer them?

the newest number bandied about is $75
(this follicle kit tests forMarijuana, Amphetamines, Methamphetamine, Ecstasy, Cocaine , Opiates (Codeine, Morphine and Heroin Metabolite), Phencyclidine.) and retails for ~$45
QkEn3L3PFpZeLqLE1Omrr-tqxOETbwNlCIN4nz3_4qH2Bjfvb96aoSybr7kbshkkhwAM-ixK37f9XuPJOT2CeB7dwVs95dBh_5hM1UCj8ZNAo17HqqlWpWE5t1NGtKFaB4sAKvbKuTbodZsnT0ENayuLKg


so numbers anyone?

or more emotions?
 

silver hawaiian

Active member
Veteran
ok. without the cannabis reference:

i'm arguing for enlightened self-interest. i value my 4th amendment rights. and it's my duty to speak out against the gov or (people like you) who would infringe on these rights. when we safeguard the rights of the poor we are all much less likely to face a similar violations down the road.

It's unfortunate, but you know, there are times where citizens don't fully enjoy their constitutional rights.

The military comes to mind. You're serving your country, but be damned sure they'll root through your footlocker any time they want, they'll order you to whiz in a cup, etc..

Certain jobs in the public service - policemen, firefighters, EMTs, teachers, ..

The fact is that there are times in which people sacrifice certain rights..

I feel you on the "I feel this way because I'd hate for the situation to be reversed and for me to be on the other end." I really do. And I can respect that perspective.

However, I'm still of the mind that if you're going to accept taxpayer funds, you ought to expect there to be some rules..

Just like folks accept rules when they take a job (the same folk I mentioned above, for example)..

:joint:
 

silver hawaiian

Active member
Veteran
Also, Cojito, the word "right" is worth debating here. Is a "right" something we're entitled to? Is a "right" something you cannot be denied, under any circumstance?

For kids who aren't 16, isn't driving a privilege? Under 18, no right to purchase tobacco or pornography.. Under 21, no right to buy booze..

It's not entirely unpracticed to put certain restrictions on certain groups of people ..

(And yes, as I type this, I do realize this is another slippery slope.. But do we just run from all slippery slopes?)
 

DiscoBiscuit

weed fiend
Veteran
what facts are in dispute?
i site the DCS and readily accept any cost of testing numbers offered!


furthermore i am willing to accept ANY % of positives offered!

lets do the math (as i have done over and over) put the emotions aside and look at the ones and zeros?!?!?

refute my numbers? by all means offer something else?

Use DCS instead of re hash that might limit refutable info? Either paste the statistics or link the source where you pulled the data?

i accept the county studies cost analysis my only problem (why i called them spin) is they fail to make any comparison to the amount saved!
Those county numbers are based on historical and contemporary statistics. Any projections (if projections are even contained in those reports) are based on real statistics. Projections are less mathematically accurate because projections haven't been verified with real, yet future numbers.

Your side of the debate (if you're talking about future savings) has no real statistics to form mathematical hypotheticals. That's because no other state has shown that Fl is headed in the right economic direction, nor have they gone in that direction. In fact, just the opposite is offered by Oklahoma and another state (I can't recall) but this state is identified in the thread.

Although these studies consist of somewhat hypothetical results, (real vs projection) they're comprehensive studies, not punditry that argues one side of the issue or the other.

Those particular studies actually attempted to do what you're suggesting, they tried to show savings that didn't pan in their models.

so again i have been and will be readily to accept reasonable input on the variables, just someone offer them?
Absent statistical models, those numbers haven't happened to justify as proven. There's no historical or contemporary numbers as basis because nobody has ever gone in this direction. Models haven't proven, nor do they suggest savings can't happen. Models, based on accurate, real comparisons suggest they won't.

the newest number bandied about is $75
(this follicle kit tests forMarijuana, Amphetamines, Methamphetamine, Ecstasy, Cocaine , Opiates (Codeine, Morphine and Heroin Metabolite), Phencyclidine.) and retails for ~$45
QkEn3L3PFpZeLqLE1Omrr-tqxOETbwNlCIN4nz3_4qH2Bjfvb96aoSybr7kbshkkhwAM-ixK37f9XuPJOT2CeB7dwVs95dBh_5hM1UCj8ZNAo17HqqlWpWE5t1NGtKFaB4sAKvbKuTbodZsnT0ENayuLKg


so numbers anyone?
Depends on who reports the figures. Ranges from $10 to $70 have been offered. A home kit can't be compared to testing costs because the state of Fl doesn't allow you to test yourself. You have to go into one of Rick's joints, pay a profit and it might actually be less than $45. Could be considerably more with false or erroneous aka appealed results.

or more emotions?
Like when I asked where you have actual experience of hundreds of mortgage closings? And you stated I was dishonest and you refused to show your surveyors license?

Nobody suggested you out yourself on a weed forum. Just wanted to know the capacity that your "hundreds of closings" expertise exists.

Real estate agents aren't contractually involved (not to suggest they don't understand) in mortgage transactions nor their documentation. Another interesting note is you didn't defensively suggest you wouldn't show your multiple-state realtor licenses, which IMO would reflect a better understanding of institutionalized landing fraud than surveyors. Because surveyors are not professionally involved in mortgage transactions.

You hit on comments with value judgements. So does the other side. Whereas, the stuff that's tough to refute, you largely leave it alone.

Not to mention you sometimes blur the line between taking something serious and taking on other members.

Example? You never uttered the word emotion, (not to mention a dozen other tactics) until I said I wasn't spending time on hurt feelings. Yet, you laughed that away as if your contrary statement didn't happen or held less worth.

You've denied past posts and that unfortunately suggests nobody knows where your serious, if at all.

In addition you stop offering refuted context yet support those past, refuted aspects with different members, as if they don't get it that past aspects have been suggested as sketchy at best.

And that's not all. You're on the record as a free thinker. Whether you're libertarian is based on whether acknowledge or refute someone else' suggestion. However, you do color yourself of constitutional importance

You haven't even touched the potential unconstitutionality of the law. I find this very interesting. I also find it interesting that you often suggest that republicans are as liberal as democrats. IMO, based on the totality of your reasoning, Rs beat Ds in the rhetorical sense.

Were not using rhetoric here. we're trying to discern multiple aspects that punditry doesn't address.
 
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M

milehimedi

have any of you all ever been lookin for a job, found one that seemed kinda cool, but then realized there was a piss test and said fuck it? I have. I did not agree with it, but I moved on and found someone else to write me paychecks.

If the person signing your checks doesn't like drugs, then find someone else to sign your checks. Or fuckin move and get your free money somewhere else. Or just find some fucking work. I can't understand why people object to this. I sure don't want my tax $$$ paying for some scum to do drugs. Even if it is just weed
 

DiscoBiscuit

weed fiend
Veteran
have any of you all ever been lookin for a job, found one that seemed kinda cool, but then realized there was a piss test and said fuck it? I have. I did not agree with it, but I moved on and found someone else to write me paychecks.

No choice when you get laid off or even fired through no fault of your own. Especially with state law that has been declared unconstitutional in two other states and the national level.

If the person signing your checks doesn't like drugs, then find someone else to sign your checks.
That's what many of us are facing in private enterprise. Nobody makes that argument here so you're a little lonely, other than a civil response.

Or fuckin move and get your free money somewhere else. Or just find some fucking work. I can't understand why people object to this. I sure don't want my tax $$$ paying for some scum to do drugs. Even if it is just weed
Pathetic argument. There's a wealth of debate and info in this thread and you're offering pocket change. no thanks

So folks that don't agree with milehimedi are scum.:puke:
 

Cojito

Active member
The fact is that there are times in which people sacrifice certain rights.

no doubt. and there are times when our freedoms are given away by people like you.

I feel you on the "I feel this way because I'd hate for the situation to be reversed and for me to be on the other end." I really do.

um - who you quoting? 'cause these are not my words. and i was sure you'd have enough respect for the people here to quote them accurately.

However, I'm still of the mind that if you're going to accept taxpayer funds, you ought to expect there to be some rules..

i told ya. there are rules. and the need for rules, or even stricter rules, is not a compelling justification for violating the 4th amendment rights of the poor. sorry. no sale. but i do get that you're not worried about their (or our) 4th amendment rights, or any potential repercussions.

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