Finding the "keeper phenos"

[cork144]

Theres always alot of talk about seedbanks and their plants they offer, especially when it comes to the keeper phenos.

Alot of people say "i went through 10 packs didnt find the pheno" ect..

Well what im asking is, when looking for the keeper phenos, would it not be best to take the f1s and make f2s?, say buy a 10 pack of a strain, openly pollenate with the entire packet, run the seeds to try find your keeper pheno..?

an example would be serious seeds ak47, with the cherry pheno.

 

[igrowwitmatches]

intresting

 

[sparkjumper]

Thats too much work to find a good pheno for me,I can usually get something satisfactory out of a 10 pak if they all germ.Sometimes not some companies like sensi seeds you'll never know what you'll fuckin get.Anyway the three things I look for in a pheno are quality yield and finishing time.I keep a copy or two of each female seedplant taking cuts right before going to flower and grow those clones out keeping copies of the interesting ones.Then I make my final decision on pheno by the flowered first set of clones,not the seedplants

 

[Tolkin Bowls]

That is one way to go about it. I believe that the gene for the "cherry flavor" would have to be present and recessive in two of your phenos. Then when these phenos get crossed they would show the "cherry flavor". You might have to pop a ton of your f2s to find the proper represetation ie: 100-500. You might even have to take them to f3s. I hope someone with more knowledge than me chimes in here.

 

[McSnappler]

The way I understand it, if that Cherry pheno was 1 out of 20 in the F1 generation, the F2s will show much more variation, and would potentially require a much bigger sample selection grown out to find. Also, in the F1 generation there may be just one Cherry pheno, that has great yield/potency/etc - in the F2 generation you would find plants that had the Cherry smell/taste, but poor potency/resin production, some with the potency/resin production of that original Cherry pheno, but with none of the smell, and many other combinations of traits.

Could be wrong though, I'm merely regurgitating what I feel I've learnt from reading the forums..

 

[MedGrowerTom]

but if you make f2 and f3's and so on, your gona loose your vigor so your gona wana backcross it and stableize and make an ibl and you would then have to breed it with something diff to get it to be an f1 again...

I would 'only' wana breed with the best, your 'open' breeding like that, you dunno which ones are hermies and you could end up with that in you prized plant.

Order your 10 pack, keep the best, if its not how you think it should be, order another pack and keep the best and compair,

Careful if you start breeding though, its very very addictive and will make you wana go over your legal numbers(if you have to worry about that)

Just like Tokin Bowls said, 100-500 plants is alot, and for true breeding, well, its a good start lol

tom

 

[dank.frank]

Well, the real JEWELS are usually found in the F1 generation, in my opinion. When you make F2's, you find the plant tend to show a lean towards one parent or the other. So one plant will lean heavily to the mother, while another will lean heavily towards the father. This is not saying that you won't find a pheno that has "mixed" attributes within the F2 generation.

I think it is HIGHLY intelligent to make F2's when only working with 10 seeds. And yes, the only SMART way to do this, would be an open pollination, simple because you don't want to bottle neck a strain with so few options. (keeping in mind, most breeders select from 100's of plants before making a cross; using 10, you may have not made the BEST selection possible) By using an open pollination, you do allow all the known traits you have available to you via the limited plant numbers, to be passed on and contained in you F2 seeds...however, you will have to hunt for that perfect pheno, just the same.

Now, this is where the fun is. I suggest you keep clones (at least 3-4) of all 10 plants. You do an open pollination for the first batch of F2 seeds. You simply do a flowering run of your females from one set of clones, and at this point select the best female upon finishing. Take another stored clone of this female, and breed it to a chosen male....or breed to each male. Label THIS batch of F2 seeds, selected female w/ male 1, male 2, etc. This allows you to have a batch of F2 seeds that has chosen attributes as well...with out as much phenotype variation. By breeding a chosen female to each male, you are also able to isolate what male is passing on the better features to his offspring.

What you end up with, is SEVERAL batches of F2 seeds to sort through. One with ALL attributes (open pollination), one with selected attributes (chosen female with all males), and one group from each male individually. (so if you have 5 males, then you have 5 more seperate seed batches.)

Doing all these seed runs takes time and room...but this does allow you to:
1. retain all the genetics of the parental plants you had available to you
2. isolate and find a specific set of traits easier
3. gives you a BUNCH of seeds!!!

You may find exactly what you are looking for in any of the seeds. But say you find the perfect combo in selected mother x male B - well, if ALL these plants are showing consistent traits across the board, then you have identified the breeding pair you want to use - make more F2's with THIS pair.

I prefer to keep my open pollination seeds in storage as a "just in case" and sprout / sort through my other pollinations. I KNOW my open pollinations will contain what I am looking for...somewhere, because I know all genetic material was preserved.

HOWEVER....do keep in mind...that the real FREAKS and wow - where did that come from - phenos, are 95% of the time, found with in the F1 generation. Which is why it can be more fun, to simply make crosses, rather than F2's.

I F2 to preserve genetics...not to find a keeper. I cross, when looking for something new.

Interesting topic! And the original poster is thinking intelligently!


dank.Frank

 

[MedGrowerTom]

I F2 to preserve genetics...not to find a keeper. I cross, when looking for something new. dank.Frank

hehe, thats kinda part of what I was trying to say.... Thanx man.

 

[McSnappler]

Great post dank.frank!

 

[Twisted Metal]

Yes Dank Frank is on the money, good write up bro.

 

[zachrockbadenof]

if i'm buying a pack of seeds and paying $100 or more, i would expect to find at LEAST one keeper... i think its b.s. to have to search thru packs of seeds to find a keeper .

 

[Care Free 1]

If I want to search for a keeper, I have little trouble going on Seedbay/Boo and picking any one of those top notch breeders, purchasing one pack from them, and finding a keeper in that pack. Seems easy to find a keeper these days online, and it's alot of work otherwise.

Here is a typical California veg/mother room full of keepers found in one pack of seeds from breeders found on the internet. There is Sour Bubble, Lemon Larry OG Kush, SFV OG Kush, Bubba Kush, Lapis Mountain Indica, Chemdog D. All these keepers with a few mouse clicks. Let the real breeders send the keepers right to your mailbox. Pay them to take the risk of creating a keeper garden for you if possible, IMO.

 

[zachrockbadenof]

. Let the real breeders send the keepers right to your mailbox. Pay them to take the risk of creating a keeper garden for you if possible, IMO.

i agree..

 

[gtbuds2332]

if i'm buying a pack of seeds and paying $100 or more, i would expect to find at LEAST one keeper... i think its b.s. to have to search thru packs of seeds to find a keeper .

I agree, with the $ people spend these days on seeds there should deff be a keeper in there...
but there is something about making your own seeds and crosses that sounds fun so i definitely plan on doing it anyway

 

[Colina]

I didn't read the entirety of this thread but the F1 is WAY WAY over-rated as far as clone hunting goes. I've read the F1 is where it's at in a few articles etc, and absolutely disagree with that. A true F1 is great for uniformity but can anybody name two lines where the F1 -an often even blend of both parents- is better than picking and choosing the extremes of the two lines in order of our own preference? I think not. Vigor (never mind that plant energy management (shape) and not cell repro rate is what most are looking for) certainly extends much deeper into inbreeding than the F1 and selected F2's will leave this uniform F1 generation in the dust. For clone hunting, I'll prefer the F2 gen over the F1 every single time. I mean it's not even close and is a no-brainer.

 

[Hal]

Finding a "keeper" in a seed pack from a great breeder should be expected....finding an "elusive trait," those rare birds, seems like it might take some extra looking.

 

[Solidopc]

I've grown many more reg f2's than f1's. On average i would say the f2's produce better bud, but not by much. I've not had that much unfavourable variation in the f2's i've grown when it comes to smoke. Flowering time seemed the most overt difference. F2's would often have a range of different phenos in that aspect, whereas the f1's would seem more stable. Like i say though, i didn't find a huge difference in the end product though, and found the f2's from friends would outform the bought f1'ss for germ rates everytime. Not sure why that was.

As for keepers. I think if you have the space and want some really unique, it's better to look in f2's. You will find something maybe excpetional, better than both original parants of the f1 cross.

 

[cork144]

thanks everyone glad to see alot of replys, it all sparked off from seeing a black / purple SS ak47 pheno, from what i had read about f2s showing alot more variation, i figured it was the best place to find the keepers, some could come up slow flower, some fast, low yeilders, high yeilders.

The fun would be in testing every females smoke

 

[englishrick]

Finding a "keeper" in a seed pack from a great breeder should be expected....finding an "elusive trait," those rare birds, seems like it might take some extra looking.

true, true...

but we have to distinguish between "Real F2`s" and "INCROSSES"....

real F2`s show FUNKY PHENOS!!,,,,we need to use real IBL`s, to make a real F1`s,,,,

"incrosses" will NOT show the range of phenos we are looking to choose from......the genes will have to be Homogeneous in order to show the varation we need to find them RARE BIRDS,,,,

as we constantly hybridize/outcross the game totaly changes,,i think the word is "heterogeneous",,,an thats not good

 

[Care Free 1]

Finding a "keeper" in a seed pack from a great breeder should be expected....finding an "elusive trait," those rare birds, seems like it might take some extra looking.

You are definately right about that. While keepers can be found rather quickly, finding that one "elusive trait" can be very difficult. I have gone though over a 1000 f2's of Sour Bubble. and over a dozen original packs also, and have yet to duplicate this pheno, and I have not seen it duplicated yet on the internet. A very rare one indeed!!! Not sure if Sour Bubble would be considered an incross though rather than an f2.