Epigenetics:)

[englishrick]

Hay GratefulHead,,,,im going trough your Q`s now,,,il post up all answers later tonight,,im tryin to answer them propperly,,,gime a lil time an il make you happy

Hay Green.....why do you sound like your commin round to the idea ,,?,,,check this out...

"The frequency of disease in the F1 generation was often less than subsequent generations. Many animals had multiple abnormalities, and 85 percent of all F1-F4 vinclozolin-exposed animals developed a transgenerational disease state. Over 90 percent of all males in F1-F4 vincozolin-exposed group had a reduced capacity of making sperms.

The disease phenotype was primarily transmitted through the male germ-line; a vinclozolin treated F2 male out-crossed to a wild-type female gave an increase in disease prevalence over controls in the F3 generation (though less than the vinclozolin F3), whereas the reverse cross did not. But the female germline also contributed to disease."

thats 4 generations of disease....all because of Epigentic Inheritance,,,,,an this is WHY i personly wouldnt stress my plants while they are trying to bare seed,,,,,

an to top it off,,,,,,,its sex specific!,,,,an maybe some Epigentic effects carrie past F4,,who knows......i dont fancy openng that can of worms,,,ya know what im sayin?.........no weedgrowin kid is ever gona want to go through 4 generations just to chill Epigentic effects...imo,,stress testing and seed production should be done seperatly,,,,but allways in conjuncion with eachother,,,never in the same growroom at the same time!...an Epigentics is the reason WHY

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

But to make those hormones the chromatin DOES change. The response to that environmental stimuli doesn't happen in a vacuum, it happens BECAUSE of the activation/suppression of genes which I assume occurs through the same methods of action as every epigenetic trait.

This is what's strange to me. Isn't EVERY trait epigenetic if you conceptualize it this way. Nothing exists without an environment. And really didn't gardeners always have a good concept of epigenetics? We all recognize when some clones don't do so well, maybe they were in the shady part of your lawn. To me it sounds like everything dealing with phenotype is epigenetic; what I thought had scientists interested in the concept was the realization that some of these traits are heritable. I never used to think of any part of the phenotype as getting passed on, i used to think blueberry was blueberry and I didn't consider the health of the blueberry changing the phenotypes I would see in my garden as long as the seeds were healthy enough to grow. I never used to worry about light leaks in the breeder's garden if he/she was making good selections, I was only worried about them in my own garden. This new realization can change your views about health by further blurring the nature nurture argument...but what do I know, 48 hours ago the only thing I had read about epigenetics was from wikipedia.

So you are saying that every single physical variation between identical clones grown in different environments is due to chromosomal changes?

Sorry but that simply is not the case.

If the stretching due to low light were to become a part of the plant which persisted in spite of a subsequent increase in light, then I would believe chromasomal change was responsible for the stretching. However, since the stretching would vary by environment and would not persist after an environment change, then id is simply a chemical response to stimuli not a heritable chromosomal change.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

thats 4 generations of disease....all because of Epigentic Inheritance

nope. It is 4 generations of disease due to genetic inheritance.

 

[Paco]

reversed backcrossing and now this. Jesus Rick, don't you have a grow room to attend?

 

[englishrick]

lately ,,,,,the line between genetic inheritance and Epigentic Inheritance is becoming blur in my eyes,,,,,so is the line between Phenotype and Epigentic Expreshion

the best line ive heard to dicribe this is...."adaptation is mutation"

 

[englishrick]

reversed backcrossing and now this. Jesus Rick, don't you have a grow room to attend?

jesus loves me an he knows im right,,,,,guess who told me so..?,,,

have a lil fun once in a while,,

.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

an this is WHY i personly wouldnt stress my plants while they are trying to bare seed

There are much better reasons not to stress plants you are making seeds with. The most obvious of which is simply that the health of the seeds (not the genetic integrity) depends on the health of the mother. The health of the pollen donor is much less relevant than the genome.


I have another good question for you rick...
You make the above statement as though making seed from stressed mothers was standard practice.... As far as I know there are not any reputable seed makers that stress plants which are making seed...

Maybe you need to understand PROPER stress testing protocol.

It is simple. Take cuts. stress test some, breed with the rest. I don't know where you ever got the idea that stress testing and seed production were to take place simultaneously.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

lately ,,,,,the line between genetic inheritance and Epigentic Inheritance is becoming blur in my eyes,,,,,so is the line between Phenotype and Epigentic Expreshion

the best line ive heard to dicribe this is...."adaptation is mutation"

the line "adaptation is mutation" is not completely accurate, though...

The 'line between' is clear, it is misconception which is causing the blurriness for you.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Why is the line "adaptation is mutation" inaccurate?

because if there are heritable epigenetic traits, then the epigenome is a way for organisms to adapt without the genome mutation...

You should think harder about which quotes you use to prove your 'points' and what that quote is actually saying.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

In plants you actually stand the greatest chance of unlocking previously unexpressed alleles, through hybridization.
The epigenome is that which locks or unlocks the expression present in the genome.
Chemical response is not always epigenetic change.

There is enough good solid botanical epigenetic research, that one really never even need cloud their mind with irrelevant zoological information...

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Upon further reflection, perhaps an example from the animal kingdom would best explain what I an trying to communicate.

When I lie in the sun for several hours a day, after only a few days my skin begins to visibly darken.

By darkening my skin is adapting to an increased amount of solar radiation.

The mechanism by which my skin darkens is already present in my genome. My skin does not darken as a result of heritable chromosomal change (dna altering or otherwise), but as a result of the program my genome is preset to.

If the sperm which my body manufactured during summer made brown babies, and the sperm made in the dead of winter made pale babies, then it would be an epigenetic trait. Since all of the sperm made will confer the preset trait of tanning when exposed to sunlight, it is a genetic trait.

Sometimes displayed phenotype is simply the result of how the genome is preset to respond to stimuli. Sometimes it is the result of heritable chromosomal change. All traits would be the result of the state of the epigenome, but not all traits are the result of heritable changes in the state of the epigenome.

I think some of the confusion in naming is this...

All epigenetic traits are phenotype, but so are all genetic traits.

If one defines epigenetic trait as "an epigenetic trait is a stably inherited phenotype resulting from changes in a chromosome without alterations in the DNA sequence."

Then any phenotype which is not stably inherited, is not an epigenetic trait.
Then any phenotype which is not the result of chromosomal changes without alteration in the dna sequence, is not an epigenetic trait.

This would mean that there are phenotype which are the result of mutation (alteration of the dna), phenotype which are the result of biochemical response or phenotype which are simply a function of tissue structure.

 

[englishrick]

Upon further reflection, perhaps an example from the animal kingdom would best explain what I an trying to communicate.

When I lie in the sun for several hours a day, after only a few days my skin begins to visibly darken.

By darkening my skin is adapting to an increased amount of solar radiation.

The mechanism by which my skin darkens is already present in my genome. My skin does not darken as a result of heritable chromosomal change (dna altering or otherwise), but as a result of the program my genome is preset to.

If the sperm which my body manufactured during summer made brown babies, and the sperm made in the dead of winter made pale babies, then it would be an epigenetic trait. Since all of the sperm made will confer the preset trait of tanning when exposed to sunlight, it is a genetic trait.

i might br wrong ,,,but i thought Adam was a BLACK GUY,,,,,the birthplace of human life is said to be in old babilonia,,,,spot the white man

imo,,,the fact that we are white is a testiment Epigentics...

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

i might br wrong ,,,but i thought Adam was a BLACK GUY,,,,,the birthplace of human life is said to be in old babilonia,,,,spot the white man

imo,,,the fact that we are white is a testiment Epigentics...

I'm not denying the existence of epigenetics, silly...

I am simply trying to help you clear up your misunderstanding of what they are...

However, it is changes in dna which makes us white, not epigenetic changes. You should quit evangelizing about epigenetics existence and learn how it practically applies, and what it actually is and isn't.... If one can identify a gene for some trait, then that trait is GENETIC not EPIGENETIC.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Stop preaching and start studying.

We know the epigenome exists, but you are highly confused about its mechanics.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

i might br wrong ,,,but i thought Adam was a BLACK GUY,,,,,the birthplace of human life is said to be in old babilonia,,,,spot the white man

imo,,,the fact that we are white is a testiment Epigentics...

BTW... adam?!?! really? I thought we were talking science here...

If you mean 'genetic adam', well then yes... did you notice how they traced the different lines of people back by changes in their DNA. Those are Genetic changes.

If there was no genetic difference between white skinned people and dark skinned people, you're assertion would make sense...

Do you also think having blue eyes is epigenetic?

Making statements like the one above about skin color being evidence for epigenetic change show that you don't get the difference between genetic traits and epigenetic traits, even though i have made it clear.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Blue eyes versus brown eyes is a very good example of a phenotype which is demonstrably genetic.

Phenotype is not synonymous with epigenetic trait and the line is not very blurry at all.

 

[W.P.]

Wow , great read very informative. One question for you H3ad, kinda off track but will tie this back into MJ.

Since You know how to genetically alter pheno-type thus producing traits that you want, how would one go about trying to alter the final product with out genetically altering or changing stimuli variables?

Sorry if it's off track....

Just easing into breeding so am curious.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

I'm not sure if I understand your question.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

The idea of the phenotype has been generalized by Richard Dawkins in The Extended Phenotype to mean all the effects a gene has on the outside world that may influence its chances of being replicated. These can be effects on the organism in which the gene resides, the environment, or other organisms. For instance, a beaver dam might be considered a phenotype of beaver genes, the same way beavers' powerful incisor teeth are phenotype expressions of their genes. Dawkins also cites the effect of an organism on the behaviour of another organism, such as the devoted nurturing of a cuckoo by a parent clearly of a different species as an example of the extended phenotype.

 

[W.P.]

How do produce epigenetic traits?

Since You know how to genetically alter pheno-type thus producing traits that you want, how would one go about trying to alter the final product with out genetically altering or changing stimuli variables?