that would not be damaging to the line.
Epigenetics:)
- Thread starter englishrick
- Start date
that would not be damaging to the line.
healthier seeds don't mean healthier genes.
you're not being a dick, you just don't understand yet.
I was under the impression that epigenetics was only concerned with inheritance. This is from Science Daily (not my favorite site) but it's within the last six months.
Are you guys thinking that a phenotypic trait and an epigenetic trait are synonyms?
Rick- You're not being a dick. You're being clueless. What makes you think that growing the healthiest plants while making seed has to negate all stress testing?
Are you guys thinking that a phenotypic trait and an epigenetic trait are synonyms?
Rick- You're not being a dick. You're being clueless. What makes you think that growing the healthiest plants while making seed has to negate all stress testing?
and btw, selfing as a breeding tool has been accepted long before you were arguing either for or against it.
alot of that mix up in this thread.
Englishrick,
Do you know how botanists define selfing?
Crossing siblings of the same generation. You self an F1 generation to get an F2 generation.
The genetic math of breeding a single specimen of a given hybrid to itself is exactly the same as breeding that same specimen to a sibling. Selfing as a breeding tool has been around as long as people have been intentionally breeding plant hybrids.
Do you know how botanists define selfing?
Crossing siblings of the same generation. You self an F1 generation to get an F2 generation.
The genetic math of breeding a single specimen of a given hybrid to itself is exactly the same as breeding that same specimen to a sibling. Selfing as a breeding tool has been around as long as people have been intentionally breeding plant hybrids.
Rick, what traits of cannabis to you consider to be epigenetic? What traits do you consider to be nothing more than the way the plants DNA tells it to respond to a given set of environmental conditions (a.k.a. phenotypical traits)?
selfing without the lower case "f" ?????,,,
“an epigenetic trait is a stably inherited phenotype resulting from changes in a chromosome without alterations in the DNA sequence.”
So without the sustaining signal that perpetuates the chromatin change in subsequent generations, you do not have a proper example of an epigenetic trait?
This seems an awfully narrow definition, though I am a fan of specifics. How does one work into this definition the fact that epigenetic 'programing' is what causes cells with identical DNA to differentiate into the different types of cells which make up multicellular organisms?
I am much better at formulating analogy than definition sometimes.
The analogy in my mind being this:
The genome is a piece of hardware complete with firmware, the epigenome a piece of software which manages the hardware by activating or deactivating different components of the firmware.
So without the sustaining signal that perpetuates the chromatin change in subsequent generations, you do not have a proper example of an epigenetic trait?
This seems an awfully narrow definition, though I am a fan of specifics. How does one work into this definition the fact that epigenetic 'programing' is what causes cells with identical DNA to differentiate into the different types of cells which make up multicellular organisms?
I am much better at formulating analogy than definition sometimes.
The analogy in my mind being this:
The genome is a piece of hardware complete with firmware, the epigenome a piece of software which manages the hardware by activating or deactivating different components of the firmware.
selfing without the lower case "f" ?????,,,
the lower case 'f' is an informal designation most often used for project notes, but with no real meaning.
The capital 'F' is always refering to filial generations of a cross of two distinct dissimilar lines.
im NOT saying negate all stress testing,,,im just sayin that "adaptation is mutation" ,,,,,,,,,an when it comes to preservation, i dont want to be working from "overly adapted seedstock" ,,,i want my source genome to be RAW,,,,,ya know whay im sayin?
You are thinking backwards, rick...
Stress testing exposes adaptations it does not cause them.
You are still acting as though the phenotypical traits are epigenetic ones.
Also rick, when are you going to bother answering all of the questions which i have asked you? your answers would help to progress this discussion immeasurably.
Sorry for the off topic but there's that friggen lower case f again, thanks a bunch Charles, lol. Rick just use S1 S2 etc, it is correct, and helps to avoid confusion. Look at the generation designations on these charts,http://books.google.com/books?id=lY...n plant breeding&pg=PA29#v=onepage&q=&f=false scroll down and read the first few words on pg 30. S1 S2 etc is just fine man and again, it helps to avoid confusion.
The definition of selfing is self-fertilization (autogamy), crossing full sibs is not selfing. The difference in the math between the two is large (as shown in both of these links), three generations of full sib mating is equal +/- to a single generation of selfing - scroll down to figure 5.11 for quick reference. http://books.google.com/books?id=rz...ilip W. Hedrick&pg=PA261#v=onepage&q=&f=false
The definition of selfing is self-fertilization (autogamy), crossing full sibs is not selfing. The difference in the math between the two is large (as shown in both of these links), three generations of full sib mating is equal +/- to a single generation of selfing - scroll down to figure 5.11 for quick reference. http://books.google.com/books?id=rz...ilip W. Hedrick&pg=PA261#v=onepage&q=&f=false
T
TrichyTrichy
You will not be able to build your castle on the sandy foundation of your lack of basic knowledge.
Greatful- On the issue underlying the definition: without that sustaining signal the trait would disappear so I'm thinking yes. And I guess your problem with that definition is the word 'inherited.' This makes you think that it excludes the differentiation of cells and tissues (the DNA in my brain is the same as my big toe) but I think the term inherited can refer to cell divisions as well as sexual matings. That's my
I'd love other's opinions. Keep in mind that definition is a recent clarification.And doesn't this make all phenotypic traits epigenetic? Is phenotypic trait and epigenetic trait a synonym?
I understand what you are saying , Tom, I've just read dozens of peer reviewed papers which refer to selfing an F1 by pollenating it with a sibling. Maybe it's something botanists misnomer often too. I've seen too many self'd generations show the variation typical of any F2 generation to think that selfing is very much of a shortcut. I'll check out the link later, I'm just speaking from what i've observed and how the punnet squares sort it. I will definitely look at that link tomorrow, though.
Greeninthethumbs,
Your definition of inheritance makes sense. Heritable for multiple cell divisions would still allow for epigenetic traits which are reset in the course of sexual reproduction.
Phenotypic traits are anything observable about the plant, some of these are simply the result of the response of the plant's firmware to environmental stimuli.
A plant is lanky because of a low light situation and it's proclivity to stretch more than it's cousins in low light... 'lanky' would be part of the phenotype, but would not be an epigenetic trait because the plant is stretching because of hormonal changes not chromosomal changes. imho, of course...
Greeninthethumbs,
Your definition of inheritance makes sense. Heritable for multiple cell divisions would still allow for epigenetic traits which are reset in the course of sexual reproduction.
Phenotypic traits are anything observable about the plant, some of these are simply the result of the response of the plant's firmware to environmental stimuli.
A plant is lanky because of a low light situation and it's proclivity to stretch more than it's cousins in low light... 'lanky' would be part of the phenotype, but would not be an epigenetic trait because the plant is stretching because of hormonal changes not chromosomal changes. imho, of course...
But to make those hormones the chromatin DOES change. The response to that environmental stimuli doesn't happen in a vacuum, it happens BECAUSE of the activation/suppression of genes which I assume occurs through the same methods of action as every epigenetic trait.
This is what's strange to me. Isn't EVERY trait epigenetic if you conceptualize it this way. Nothing exists without an environment. And really didn't gardeners always have a good concept of epigenetics? We all recognize when some clones don't do so well, maybe they were in the shady part of your lawn. To me it sounds like everything dealing with phenotype is epigenetic; what I thought had scientists interested in the concept was the realization that some of these traits are heritable. I never used to think of any part of the phenotype as getting passed on, i used to think blueberry was blueberry and I didn't consider the health of the blueberry changing the phenotypes I would see in my garden as long as the seeds were healthy enough to grow. I never used to worry about light leaks in the breeder's garden if he/she was making good selections, I was only worried about them in my own garden. This new realization can change your views about health by further blurring the nature nurture argument...but what do I know, 48 hours ago the only thing I had read about epigenetics was from wikipedia.
This is what's strange to me. Isn't EVERY trait epigenetic if you conceptualize it this way. Nothing exists without an environment. And really didn't gardeners always have a good concept of epigenetics? We all recognize when some clones don't do so well, maybe they were in the shady part of your lawn. To me it sounds like everything dealing with phenotype is epigenetic; what I thought had scientists interested in the concept was the realization that some of these traits are heritable. I never used to think of any part of the phenotype as getting passed on, i used to think blueberry was blueberry and I didn't consider the health of the blueberry changing the phenotypes I would see in my garden as long as the seeds were healthy enough to grow. I never used to worry about light leaks in the breeder's garden if he/she was making good selections, I was only worried about them in my own garden. This new realization can change your views about health by further blurring the nature nurture argument...but what do I know, 48 hours ago the only thing I had read about epigenetics was from wikipedia.
you can see the advantage of epigenetics from an evolutionary point of view, if your progeny are going to be growing/existing in the same environment as you, then passing down 'phenotype' traits that last for a few generations will give them an advantage.
