eBay LED

[Firebrand]

You may also need some solder wick to aid in removing the diodes.

When I was much younger I once worked as a small card analyst, troubleshooting mods and caps and such using both visual inspection and good card/bad card comparison with a VOM, my job was to identify the fault and send the cards to repair before retesting on SCFTS (Small Card Final Test System), I carried a decent average on my fix rate.

But to cut to the chase, the repair stations were one row in front of the analysts, so I was very familiar with repair techniques and the tools they used, those folks had a tool called a solder sucker. The tool used a vacuum attached to a small glass cylinder with filter within, this was attached to a soldering iron, the vacuum was actuated via foot peddle, the repair tech would heat the lan/pin to liquid state and step on the peddle and it would suck the solder out. Some of the mods on those boards might have 12-16 pins and that tool would make short work of clearing them for removal.

I am not familiar with the solder wick, but I will definitely investigate, I thank you for you suggestion and input, I hope both you and Oregon stick with me here, the help is certainly appreciated.

This is different in design from what I had seen before but it might work?
http://www.amazon.com/Parts-Express-Solder-Sucker-desoldering/dp/B0002KRAAG

Found this under solder wick.
http://www.amazon.com/Aven-17542-De...F8&qid=1376159165&sr=8-1&keywords=solder+wick

 

[Firebrand]

Solder wick yes, or a solder sucker, which was helpful to me when I melted too much solder on the joint.

Good luck in replacing the LEDs. My hope is that they'll give you better results than what was on there before. Im not familiar with Epistars but I hesitate to think that they're on the same level as a brand like Cree. I'd also find out what current the existing driver is putting out.

Just keep in mind that heat dissipation is very important and the Chinese lights' heatsinks are usually enclosed flat aluminum panels, waaay inadequate IMO. If there's any way you can improve in the thermal management, like the addition of fans, and/or removing the enclosure, I'd recommend it.

Thank you joining in the conversation, please stick around, all input is valuable.

Coming up next is a look under the hood.

 

[Firebrand]

Inside the EBay LED....

Looks like 4 drivers, 3 fans and a transformer to run the fans, very plain and simple, no circuit boards or electronics.

The first thumb is the light and my map for reference, the rest are photos of the internals. 4 drivers tells me that the board is divided into four quadrants of 75 watts each. What would be the correct driver for 25/3watt LED's?

Also, I wonder about the heatsink and the cooling of the unit, the sink seems to be fairly heavy and it is aided by 3 continuous running fans, should be concern in this area?

Please click on individual thumbs to enlarge.

 

[positivity]

The heatsink picture reminds me of my noah led.
I don't understand why they have the channels of the heatsink lined up in a fashion as they can't utilize all the airflow from the fans
If they were flipped with the channels running lengthwise wouldn't it be a much more efficient use of the airflow from fans?
Maybe it's a non issue but I can't help but think they are wasting the channel design

 

[Firebrand]

The heatsink picture reminds me of my noah led.
I don't understand why they have the channels of the heatsink lined up in a fashion as they can't utilize all the airflow from the fans
If they were flipped with the channels running lengthwise wouldn't it be a much more efficient use of the airflow from fans?
Maybe it's a non issue but I can't help but think they are wasting the channel design

You're thinking more surface area?

I ran this light in cycles for a short time, the temp was low at the end of an 11 hour on, it could be touched anywhere on its surface with bare hands without any discomfort, even the glass lens wasn't hot. The fans pull air from the top and push it down, over the sinks and out the sides and the ends.

Thank you for piping in, your input is appreciated.

 

[Firebrand]

I searched the Noah LED, I was looking for specs, I was surprised to find that Noah uses Epistar diodes in several of its models.

 

[HenDokuYaku]

I searched the Noah LED, I was looking for specs, I was surprised to find that Noah uses Epistar diodes in several of its models.

In my opinion, they don't. I had a long conversation with them. They claim to use an Epistar red that runs at 750ma. Epistar only makes Red that run at 350ma.

I ended up ordering one of these things because I was curious. They use some Epiled and some other no name brand. There is also no bridgelux in there.

Just email them and have the convo with them. I would say they are less than truthful. What a shocker.

 

[HenDokuYaku]

I think my rep from Gehl where you got your Noah is the same as mine. He told me about your setup. I have a feeling we are the only two suckers to try them out. I got the Noah 8.

I didn't trust they would use Osram or Cree in upgrades so I just went with standard. Since they weren't truthful about the Epistar and Osram. I put the light in a big room next to a Gavita for a side by side. I'm hoping it can at least add to the spectrum or worse case scenario, it goes to veg.

I would've PMed, but I think you need 50 posts.

 

[Firebrand]

I have registered to an electronics forum seeking answers. It seems that with working with LED's that there are any infinite possible number of component combinations that will or won't work. I'm finding out that different colors use different voltages and currents dependent on the corresponding resistor, I'm also seeing that different manufactures use different voltages and currents than there competitors, and on and on, I have myself a real can of worms here.

I'm not sure where I'm headed as I'm learning on the fly, I hope it works out.

 

[positivity]

Hey firebrand
I was thinking more along the lines of the airflow following the channels along the length of the heatsink. The way they arrange it the middle fan fan would send most of its air out the side. Fr example if you look at apaches website picture, two fans send air down the length of the heatsink. Just makes more sense to me
But if it runs cool then it doesn't really matter.

Hendoku> yah don't want to hijack thread. You can post something in my china led experience led thread. It's in the led grow light section. I would love to hear your experience thus far. I'm in week two flowering right now and things are looking alright, not great though.

 

[Firebrand]

Here's a photo of the driver in the EBay/China light that I have.
If I upgrade the drivers from 500ma to 700ma I will create a brighter light and at the same time I will create more heat, now knowing that I have no issue with heat now do you think this upgrade is something I should consider?

http://imageshack.com/scaled/large/33/hx1w.jpg

 

[Oregonism]

Here's a photo of the driver in the EBay/China light that I have.
If I upgrade the drivers from 500ma to 700ma I will create a brighter light and at the same time I will create more heat, now knowing that I have no issue with heat now do you think this upgrade is something I should consider?

http://imageshack.com/scaled/large/33/hx1w.jpg

New replacement drivers, even at a decent price, would still run fairly high compared to whatever you paid. I would say they could be as high as 3/4 the cost of the original panel at retail. What's it worth? If you could replace them for less than half? Cool project, but I see limitations. Which I hate,hate saying, there should never BE limitations however, you can't put lipstick on a pig and call it a porcupine......just adding a few drivers, does that really add any enticement to the light at all?

You are going to have to find that curve of efficiency, these diodes usually run more efficiently with less current and hence less heat, so upgrading without upgrading the diodes isn't worth it in my opinion. It could lead to upgrading the sink and on and on.

[Edit: deal breaker if cutting edge, but is this? No, great solid, reliable, but not cutting edge, it is what it is of sorts.]

 

[Oregonism]

Still dig the light, still kicking around the idea of this light footprint for my next mini-cab. But would somebody do something like this: Diy Spectrometer w/DVD and at least get a sense of what spectrums these bad girls are putting out?

750nm???

 

[Firebrand]

New replacement drivers, even at a decent price, would still run fairly high compared to whatever you paid. I would say they could be as high as 3/4 the cost of the original panel at retail.

I'm thinking this as a direct replacement, 30$ each if I ever lose a driver.
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...GAEpiMZZMt5PRBMPTWcaTWeSxpmncu0oFu2Y/s1%2b5A=

And maybe this as an upgrade, although as you said, the cost maybe more than the worth.
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...=sGAEpiMZZMt5PRBMPTWcaRSJ5hpJAfwro1t31kMdKXM=

 

[Firebrand]

Still dig the light, still kicking around the idea of this light footprint for my next mini-cab. But would somebody do something like this: Diy Spectrometer w/DVD and at least get a sense of what spectrums these bad girls are putting out?

Maybe something like this might be effective?
http://www.bing.com/shopping/cardbo...0?q=+spectrometer&lpq= spectrometer&FORM=HURE

 

[Neekz]

Hey brother, the drivers you listed from mouser, only the Meanwell would be a direct 1:1 replacement. The other one maxes at 56v while the factory driver was 55-100v. Thermal losses are quite minimal compared to the gains in reality. They do have a peak, yes, and most diode's are around 750mA, but your confused, they only create more heat past the efficiency curve with little light increase, this does not mean running them at rated current, rather than under-driven, that they are only gonna make more heat and little light. Overdriving is pointless, running closer to maximum efficiency if you can take the heat is all that's necessary. I wouldn't get all to worried about heat my brother, seeing as the only differences between the higher wattage china panels is higher current (650-700mA) driver's, almost every single one uses the same type of sink's and fan's (Those are the same brand fans as the Blackstar's too...), just different spreads/layouts. I can guarantee you that 95% of the mystery chips are epiled's. At this point the best thing's you could do would be first remove the glass. Maybe, if you have the tool's, cut the housing flush with the circuit board. The fan driver is only 1000mA , so it is running at 75% at the moment, so you only have a little wiggle room for fan upgrades. Maybe 2-3 120mm high cfm fan's (330mA each...) , mount 1 per sink, or factory location. If you really want a rough spectrum, you can find epiled's datasheet's if you dig deep enough (Ebay seller ARCHOBBY has some...). Truth is, the color peak's only shift very minutely from manufacturer to manufacturer, intensity is where the bigger differences show. I use buildmyled.com for rough spectrum ratio calculations. Like I said, not spot on, but the shift's are quite minimal. In my opinion, keep the 2 UV, 2 of the 8 green (Plant's use this too, supposedly more vigor... Look at the HPS guys, obviously helping somewhere.), they will help. The amount of red is quite ridiculous, definitely hampering growth. I plan on using more 6500k as well in the future for widespread blue-leaning spectrum coverage. If you can score some 90* collimator lens for cheap, jump on it, they are what you want (Funnel-like reflector's, without a physical lens so-to-say, transmitting more light. Think diamond series...), and some have a super skinny base for easy mounting. I have a square 100 diode china panel covering an area the same size you need running 600mA drivers with collimator lens's and it's making some all right bud's, and I can shoot you the spectrum if you'd like. Realistically it's probably only enough for half the space, but you should be able to pull it off better as you are running a rectangular panel, mine's square. Hate to say it, but I do not think that you are gonna be able to get over 200w from that panel. 170-190w is max safe zone with the factory cooling, as well as peak efficiency of the china diodes. Not to say you can't put a 1000mA driver in there and have a 300w panel, but it would be more suited as a heating element for a convection over, rather than a grow light, and probably wouldn't last more than a minute. This reminds me of the modified vehicle scene man (Im a honda head...), so much mis-information spread around, or hearsay, or "theory". Best to put it to work and run em! A little void warranty seal does not hold our kind back lol! Good pioneering BTW Firebrand! Not many peeps have the heart to gut and Frankenstein something with a lot of use left (Most here would toss in the garbage, not ME...), and I hope it pay's off for you!

 

[Firebrand]

Neekz, dude, brother, I would dig talkin more on this, your above post rocks!!!

Give me an hour or three and I'll come back and run a few ideas past you, and as for tearin stuff up in experiments, like you, I ain't skeered.

Great post, thanks for the input.

 

[HenDokuYaku]

Neekz,

Thanks very much for that info. I'm going to remove my glass as well on the Noah. FYI, I have the Epiled datasheet if someone wants to see it.

 

[Firebrand]

I wouldn't get all to worried about heat my brother, seeing as the only differences between the higher wattage china panels is higher current (650-700mA) driver's, almost every single one uses the same type of sink's and fan's (Those are the same brand fans as the Blackstar's too...), just different spreads/layouts.

I had thought about more sink, blems can be had for cheap.
http://www.rapidled.com/as-is/

I hadn't given thought to fan upgrades, but it sounds like a viable option if the price is right.

I can guarantee you that 95% of the mystery chips are epiled's. At this point the best thing's you could do would be first remove the glass. Maybe, if you have the tool's, cut the housing flush with the circuit board.

Another interesting area, my thoughts on this involved removing the glass and doing the trim as you suggest, to go a step further I was thinking about fabricated add on wing type reflectors that extend down several inches, these could be tweaked as need be, longer, shorter, more pitch, less pitch...

The fan driver is only 1000mA , so it is running at 75% at the moment, so you only have a little wiggle room for fan upgrades. Maybe 2-3 120mm high cfm fan's (330mA each...) , mount 1 per sink, or factory location.

I addressed this above, again, a viable option if the price is right.

If you really want a rough spectrum, you can find epiled's datasheet's if you dig deep enough (Ebay seller ARCHOBBY has some...). Truth is, the color peak's only shift very minutely from manufacturer to manufacturer, intensity is where the bigger differences show. I use buildmyled.com for rough spectrum ratio calculations. Like I said, not spot on, but the shift's are quite minimal. In my opinion, keep the 2 UV, 2 of the 8 green (Plant's use this too, supposedly more vigor... Look at the HPS guys, obviously helping somewhere.), they will help.

This is an area where I need to do more research.

The amount of red is quite ridiculous, definitely hampering growth. I plan on using more 6500k as well in the future for widespread blue-leaning spectrum coverage. If you can score some 90* collimator lens for cheap, jump on it, they are what you want (Funnel-like reflector's, without a physical lens so-to-say, transmitting more light.

I found a few funnel types, most are molded in black, I would assume these would want to be molded in white or mirror?
Also, finding these for bead type 3w diodes with the correct angle would be necessary.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=collimator+lens&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=

Think diamond series...), and some have a super skinny base for easy mounting. I have a square 100 diode china panel covering an area the same size you need running 600mA drivers with collimator lens's and it's making some all right bud's, and I can shoot you the spectrum if you'd like. Realistically it's probably only enough for half the space, but you should be able to pull it off better as you are running a rectangular panel, mine's square.

Any specs you can forward would be greatly appreciated, also, I have 2 of these units and I was hoping to generate near 400w combined, it seems after reading your post that my goal is close to being within reach.

Hate to say it, but I do not think that you are gonna be able to get over 200w from that panel. 170-190w is max safe zone with the factory cooling, as well as peak efficiency of the china diodes. Not to say you can't put a 1000mA driver in there and have a 300w panel, but it would be more suited as a heating element for a convection over, rather than a grow light, and probably wouldn't last more than a minute.

I follow what you are saying here, I would end up with SED's (Smoke Emitting Diodes).

Best to put it to work and run em! A little void warranty seal does not hold our kind back lol! Good pioneering BTW Firebrand! Not many peeps have the heart to gut and Frankenstein something with a lot of use left (Most here would toss in the garbage, not ME...), and I hope it pay's off for you!

Thanks for the kind words and the pat on the back, forward we march, looking for a better way.

 

[positivity]

Neekz,

Thanks very much for that info. I'm going to remove my glass as well on the Noah. FYI, I have the Epiled datasheet if someone wants to see it.

The glass comes out fairly easy. Just remove a few screws and pry the little tabs holding the glass in place. Comes right out and goes back together normally.
Just a little tip....don't toss the glass like I did ( I don't like extra stuff laying around) things went a little haywire after I took the glass out.
In my small area the glass may have been helping...