D's gone hunting.........

[Mister_D]

And I suppose since a certain someone has no patience....... (I mean common buddy, it's only been, what? 3-4 months )

For the rest of you, that don't know. I've had a rather strange urge to try silvers nightmare diesel since I first saw pics and his description of it. Well a few months back a magic fairy sprinkled some pixie dust and poof the nightmare appeared in my room . Sadly I've been very busy and she'd been neglected for a few months while I worked on other projects. Well the nightmare is just not one to be unhappy. While other plants suffered a bit from wide ph and nute swings the nightmare stayed healthy and green the whole time never showing any signs of distress. In fact the bitch grew so well I found myself topping it several times just to keep it at a manageable size. Long story short I built another area for her and two mothers I have from other projects to be flowered out.

Here's the nightmare ~ 4-5 days into flower. Hasn't even started to stretch yet .

I also have a DMK mother in front, and a romulan in the back left (thought I got an individual pic, but I guess not)

I built a pond liner pool, similar to the rack room. It measures approx. 5x8' and is lit by two ushio opti-red hps 600's in vertizontal reflectors (nabbed from another spot). 65 gal res gravity feeding a flexzilla manifold via my Hayward solenoid valve and cycle timer. 1/4" open ended lines run to each plant. Fed 3 times during lights on for 30 seconds each cycle.

 

[MrAwder]

subbed.

 

[Mister_D]

Mister_D:

Appreciate you stopping by and offering your insight. Algae isn't something i'm particularly concerned about, more of an aesthetic nuisance. I would like to touch on your suggestion to try once per day watering. I was initially watering once per day in veg, then twice per day once moved under the 600's, and now up to three times per day during flower. This was done out of necessity (plants were starting to wilt from dryness). Once flower began, even watering twice during the light cycle wasn't enough to keep the pots moist through the last couple hours of light and the dark period. So I opted to water every 8 hours. Once at lights on, then 8 hrs in, and again 8 hours after that. I think you are underestimating how well my media drains (Less than a 1/3 is coco peat), and how thirsty plants are in a dialed environment . Honestly I could easily up it to 4-5 times per day, and just might. I'm looking for maximum growth rates, part of that is getting as much air to the roots as possible. Upping to 3x per day watering also saw a huge increase in the amount of root growth through the SRGB's . Less watering cycles per day might benefit a grow using a media that holds more water (i.e straight coco peat, or soil/less), but my mix is designed for active hydro with constant or regularly cycled feeding.


Hi, Mister_D.

Thanks. We designed Square Root(R) Garden Bags to be scalable and functional in various systems. Your preference for and well managed application of flood and drain techniques, with SRBGB`s, appears to have coalesced well, as might be well illustrated by #2:

Mister_D:

What can I say, they like being flooded 3 times a day
​

By all means, deliver as numerous floods as might be found to be best suited to your garden, and please do filter any suggestions that we may post through the perspective of what is most advantageous for your garden.
Water as frequently as is required. The SRBGB`s should perform well in various systems, and when they are used within traditional, standard or novel gardening methodolgies.

I filter everything based on it's usefulness in my garden. Still I love the exchange of different ideas, because even in the unlikely event they aren't useful to me now or in the future, someone else might read our conversation and find that's exactly the method they were looking for.

Relevant to our preference for providing water only once or twice per 24 hours, during experiments with SRBGB`s, perhaps the details of such an approach could best be descibed as drain to no waste. We would simply permit a small portion of top or bottom fed water or solution to remain in the basin, in constant contact with the SRBGB. The exact amount of `run-off` accumulation that we would maintain in the basin would range from 1/4 inch with a 1 gallon SRBGB to 2 inch with a 20 gallon SRBGB. We will defer to our Drain To No Waste thread for further discussion, as the process can be detailed. Our concept, not necessarily a suggestion, to incorporate such a method into your current technique, would be to raise the drain level of the table so that the bottoms of the SRBGB`s would be in relative constant contact with moisture (approximately at the tops of the grating on your tables).

The way my tables are designed leaves a thin layer of water (probably ~1/8" depth) after each drain cycle. I have found it beneficial to time my flood cycle so it always maintains this film of water. I do this to keep the roots that grow out of the pots alive.

Could you post an illustration of your media mix?

Meant to take a better pic while I was there, but this old one should give you an idea of what it looks like. Basic recipe is one block each of coco peat, and coco chips, mixed with a bag of floor dry (~1.5 cuft). Depending on the amount of coco peat in the blocks of chips I sometimes reduced coco peat to 1/2 block and made up the difference with coco chips.

The drainage capacity of the substrate is a variable to be considered when attempting to accurately measure how much water is in the system. We found inert rocks, including perlite or pumice, to be versatile. They both drain thoroughly. We would maintain contact between eith the roots and the accumulated run-off, or the SRBGB and the accumulated run-off, or both. With contact constant, the run-off from a single watering would be available to roots. By raising the level of your drain, you could presumably eliminate the occasion where roots would ever not have access to moisture, whether they were provided water once, or several ocaasions per day.

The key would be to accurately calculate how much water or solution the given plant(s) or tree(s) assimilated over that 24 hour period, accounting for the evaporation (or, dehumidification) rate, too. In essence, a given plant, or group or plants can only uptake a certain amount of water (solution) over a given period, within the (environmental, cultivar specific, growth stage) parameters precisely at that period.

The problem I see with doing it this way is the lack of oxygen the roots will receive only having the solution refreshed once per day. Not to say that will lead to rot or unhealthy plants, just that faster growth/higher yields will be achieved by refreshing the solution multiple times per day. This is true because as the plant is watered gases in the root zone are exchanged, bringing oxygen in and pushing waste gases out. Another benefit being multiple feeds tends to keep ph and EC more stable within the media, also leading to higher yields.

Our object in developing the Drain To No Waste method, and furhter contributing to the Float Valve Auto Watering thread, might be to accurately measure that rate at which a given plant, or group of plants or trees, uptakes water within their respective specific environment, and to deliver only that amount of water to the specimen. This approach could be applied in flood and drain, nutrient film technique, and other standard garden techniques.

The goal would be to eliminate waste, become aware of the exact amount of input (solution) a given type of cultivar required over a given span (day, week, month, season, etc.) and to basically develop a system where the plant roots` responses would regulate the delivery of the solution - not the perspective of the gardener, nor a timed interval approximating the total requirements of the garden.

The more I think about this I'm actually interested in a different angle. Have you considered that it's not important how much water is delivered per feed cycle in a recirculating system as there is no loss (other than evaporation), but timing feed cycles so oxygen levels are maintained within a peak range (wondering what this range might be, and how you'd measure it?) In the case of my garden for instance the plants are always, for lack of a better term, soaked. I designed my media to hold a ton of air all the time so even under constant/multiple floods/ing there is enough oxygen to support very rapid growth. I would like to learn more about how to measure the oxygen levels in various medias in real time, and test different mixtures to see what O2 range performs best for cannabis. I have a good idea through trial and error, but at some point i'd like some hard numbers to compare and work off of. In my mind anyway, oxygen levels seem the more important factor to monitor. Though water saturation, and chosen media play big parts in that equation also. Ultimately comes back to there being a million ways to skin a mule. Trick is to figure out which was is most productive for the individual gardeners needs.

When we did experiment with actively circulating a nutrient solution and actively delivering that solution to specimen, we found that it was much simpler to just turn on a top-fed irrigation system 24/0, with a substrate that thoroughly drained, and maintained a shallow level of run-off (reciculated) in contact with SRBGB`s, or roots from the SRBGB`s, where roots could grow into unrestricted.

This has been my experience also, most important part of that is the media chosen. I do timed feedings for power savings and pump longevity.

As noted by the rapid growth of algae, we would account for the build up of undesired growth or chemical deposits, by employing flexible tubing. We would begin the season with one to three exact replicas of the delivery system (pump, feed lines, emitters), and periodically swap out the entire feed system for the next in the rotation. Swapped out approximately every seven to ten days, the accumulated build up on the parts that actively held recirculating fluids might be less than if a single system were employed through the season. We found no advantages to timed intervals for delivery of the fluids. As long as the SRBGB had access to a shallow level to constant film of solution, roots would countinue to grow into that solution, whether it was aerated or not.

That's a great idea. I don't find the algae bothersome enough to go to those lengths though.

Even with 10 or 20 gallon SRBGB`s, with larger plants or trees, without any actively applied nutrients, we would still only pour approximately 1 to 2 gallons of solution into that SRBGB, after selecting the appropriately shaped external basin, which might accumulate to 1 to 2 inches of run-off in that external basin. If the vegetation period was lengthy enough in the larger capacity SRBGB, the roots would still grow into the run-off solution, and have enough held in that basin for roots to uptake over the given period (24 hours), accounting for evaporation (dehumidification). That period could be extended by allowing the level to increase to 3 inches of run-off - as long as roots have grown to the walls and bottoms of the SRBGB, they will be able to uptake that run-off.

Again just because it can be done with success, doesn't mean it's ideal I don't just want my plants to grow, I want them to rocket towards the light. Again individual gardener preference.

The fundamental principle being that plants or trees can only uptake so much water over a given period. Once that amount is determined by the gardener, accounting for the various environmental variables that might influence the water uptake, level and solubility, the gardener can basically only apply that amount, and reduce waste, excess active input(s), and over-watering, over-fertilizing, etc.

In any event, this post is just to describe more fully what we meant by reducing waterings. In was not intended to infer a reduction of access to water, but, rather, a reduction of actively supplying that water. The same amount of water could be applied at a single occasion, as long as its dispersal (as run-off held in a shallow basin) would equate to the total volume that would have been delivered over the course of several deliveries over the same period.

I appreciate you taking the time to type it all out K+. Lots of solid information in this post.

On a slightly similar note, we have been developing drafts of the mechanical operation of such a system that we are attempting to describe above. The premise being that the plants` root responses (uptake of water, or solution) would be the primary signal for watering to occur. Basically, the plant or tree would effectively water itself. It is only a draft, not a working model, still requires some prototyping and testing. We were most concerned about the math relating to the constant forces involved. Having formulated a proposition for the system to balance itself, we will present it shortly for further open development.

I'm very interested to see where this path leads you, please to continue to share your progresses and failures. I think what you are developing could be very useful to the medical community.

Thanks, again, for sharing your continued efforts at working to standardize and simultaneously improve upon your acquired techniques; and for sharing your methods of employing SRBGB`s within your own distinct flood and drain methods. We do hope that they will continue to perform well in your gardens, in the various ways that you might select to scale or experiment with their implementation.

Best,
/SRGB/

I'm a tough critic, but so far the SRGB's have performed just as expected. I'll continue to report my likes/dislikes, and findings about them concerning my methods as time goes on. So far I'm very happy with them.

USD. I would drop an awesome pic, but I'm headed to class. Looking good... Even with the reflectors.

Sadly the USD got lost in an unfortunate accident with a falling light, but the Strawberry DD is still kickin' . She'll be making her debut in the rack room Drop that pic when ya get out of school. Or................. you could start a thread again...........

Oh and don't you worry about those reflectors, D's still got enough vert burning to light a small city

 

[Mister_D]

subbed.

View Image

Welcome to the show . Basement is coming together nicely btw

 

[silver hawaiian]

And I suppose since a certain someone has no patience....... (I mean common buddy, it's only been, what? 3-4 months )

For the rest of you, that don't know. I've had a rather strange urge to try silvers nightmare diesel since I first saw pics and his description of it. Well a few months back a magic fairy sprinkled some pixie dust and poof the nightmare appeared in my room . Sadly I've been very busy and she'd been neglected for a few months while I worked on other projects. Well the nightmare is just not one to be unhappy. While other plants suffered a bit from wide ph and nute swings the nightmare stayed healthy and green the whole time never showing any signs of distress. In fact the bitch grew so well I found myself topping it several times just to keep it at a manageable size. Long story short I built another area for her and two mothers I have from other projects to be flowered out.

Here's the nightmare ~ 4-5 days into flower. Hasn't even started to stretch yet .

View Image

I also have a DMK mother in front, and a romulan in the back left (thought I got an individual pic, but I guess not)

View Image

I built a pond liner pool, similar to the rack room. It measures approx. 5x8' and is lit by two 600's in vertizontal reflectors (nabbed from another spot). 65 gal res gravity feeding a flexzilla manifold via my Hayward solenoid valve and cycle timer. 1/4" open ended lines run to each plant. Fed 3 times during lights on for 30 seconds each cycle.

_D, I'm s'damned excited, only way it could be better is if I could actually SEE the damned photo!



But really, I'm stoked to see what you can do with her. I've got a couple under a reflector right now, 35 days in..



She's quite resilient - how else do you think she's survived this long in my care?!

 

[Mister_D]

_D, I'm s'damned excited, only way it could be better is if I could actually SEE the damned photo!



But really, I'm stoked to see what you can do with her. I've got a couple under a reflector right now, 35 days in..



She's quite resilient - how else do you think she's survived this long in my care?!

Hmmmm I can see the pictures? Anyone else having problems seeing them?

 

[soursmoker]

I can only see Bobble's pics...

 

[bobblehead]

I see your pics...

 

[Mister_D]

I can only see Bobble's pics...

I see your pics...

Well color me confused?

 

[bobblehead]

I have a simple solution... Silver can come to my house to see the pics, and use his new lens to take pics of my massive buds! Sour is shit out of luck.

 

[soursmoker]

 

[Mister_D]

I have a simple solution... Silver can come to my house to see the pics, and use his new lens to take pics of my massive buds! Sour is shit out of luck.

Bout fell out of my chair laughing when I read this. Guess I'd better pm a mod about this situation.

 

[soursmoker]

thanks for leaving me out guys...

did you move pics to a different album or change an album to private or something?

I can see a pic from the quote from SRGB but I can't see any recent pics, except Bobble's...

 

[silver hawaiian]

I can already see it - I've been pimpin' this broad for close to two years, and _D is the one who's gonna put her on the map

bobble, I've been thinking about that actually. Some new toys (to replace old toys) are arriving today that should make me slightly more dangerous. We gotta connect sooner'n later, before they come down! How much time we got?

 

[Mister_D]

thanks for leaving me out guys...

did you move pics to a different album or change an album to private or something?

I can see a pic from the quote from SRGB but I can't see any recent pics, except Bobble's...

Don't worry, bobble is just kind of dick like that (Ya gots ta have thick skin to hang with the vert crew ). Pm'd a mod about this situation, we'll get it resolved . I did delete and reload the pics, so guessing that might have something to do with it. Checked to be sure album is public already, and all pics are in one album. Guess until things are sorted you can go to my gallery and check them out, though you won't know what's what

 

[Mister_D]

I can already see it - I've been pimpin' this broad for close to two years, and _D is the one who's gonna put her on the map

Nah brother, it was you that put her on the map. I'm just taking her for the west coast tour .

 

[soursmoker]

just repost them from the new gallery! bet it works!

 

[Chillb]

I have a simple solution... Silver can come to my house to see the pics, and use his new lens to take pics of my massive buds! Sour is shit out of luck.

lmao , poor soursmoker!

I have had no troubles seeing all the photos here ...

 

[soursmoker]

I can see now!


haha screw you guys! leaving me out...

next time I'm not gonna help... haha

 

[Mister_D]

I can see now!


haha screw you guys! leaving me out...

next time I'm not gonna help... haha

I re-edited all the pics into each post just for you.....